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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    The Treo was thicker and less attractive in many people's eyes, plus did not have all the up-to-date features and too many bugs, but still commanded a high price.
    Tickness is part of a device's form factor. Given many get their Treos with the exception of the Treo Pro through some subsidized carrier pricing, I don't think price was the biggest factor. Especially considering IPhones are not cheap and have you seen how much they sell for in places like India? (In India Apple markets the IPhone for several times higher than they do in the USA and it's still very popular there.) But people in India are trying to get an IPhone anyway.

    The BB has business customers and does because RIM didn't try doing very much. They made a phone with e-mail and have the patent for their own secure push technology. They targeted what business consumers wanted and left it at that. Apple with the IPhone presented a feature set and look, that ordinary consumers wanted. Palm didn't offer the look and although they'd like the business consumers, Treos simply are not topping the BB in the business market, plus the Treo attempts to do more than many business consumers really need.

    Palm could have come with a new form factor, but tried to mock the BB look in a space the BB already dominates, which left Palm without enough business customers and a device with little appeal to average consumers. Now Palm has come with a new look in the Treo Pro, that simply copies the IPhone look. Not exactly what I'd call innovation in the design aspect of things.

    And yes the Treos have had a history of bugs and slow fixes, that leave both business and average consumers turning away from Treos.
  2. Scott_L's Avatar
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    #22  
    It's tough to make price comparisons with Apple products because so many people will spend whatever Apple demands - ridiculously overpriced or not.
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott_L View Post
    It's tough to make price comparisons with Apple products because so many people will spend whatever Apple demands - ridiculously overpriced or not.
    Great point, but this is Palm we're talking about. Not exactly a model of innovation.

    As to Colligan's point about having a strong cash position, any CEO will say that so as to not scare the investors. There was a recording of an earnings call made by the CEO of AIG saying the exact same thing a week before the company was about to go bust. Of course we all know had to drag his a$$ in front of Congress to get a piece of that $700B pie. Not saying Palm is in this dire of a position, just that company execs will say whatever they need in order to appease nervous shareholders. However having a private equity group behind them certainly helps.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The BB has business customers and does because RIM didn't try doing very much. They made a phone with e-mail and have the patent for their own secure push technology. They targeted what business consumers wanted and left it at that. Apple with the IPhone presented a feature set and look, that ordinary consumers wanted. Palm didn't offer the look and although they'd like the business consumers, Treos simply are not topping the BB in the business market, plus the Treo attempts to do more than many business consumers really need.
    RIM is being very innovative right now. New hardware, new Browser, HTML email, support for DocsToGo. I currently use an unlocked AT&T Centro and have a spare in a drawer. If Palm goes under, I should be OK for another 4 years or so. After that, maybe there is another BB in my future (I already have a work provided Curve).
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I hate to say it, but personally I think Palm needs to offer up the Treo Pro as a subsidized phone to gain some ground on the Treo front, at least in the US. People here still look at price as a determining factor. If you have others selling lower priced, thin fully featured phones, even if locked to carriers, people here will buy them first. I certainly don't favor butchered ROMs and firmware, but it may be the only way for Palm to gain some ground again for it's Treos, since the Pro is the Treo they should have released a LONG time ago. But $550 is steep for a lot of people.
    The TreoPro is really just another WM6 handset. It won't save Palm. It's not available subsidized because the US GSM carriers are probably not interested in offering it.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    RIM is being very innovative right now. New hardware, new Browser, HTML email, support for DocsToGo. I currently use an unlocked AT&T Centro and have a spare in a drawer. If Palm goes under, I should be OK for another 4 years or so. After that, maybe there is another BB in my future (I already have a work provided Curve).
    RIM is copy catting other devices including the IPhone right now.

    Things were pretty mundane till the IPhone caused device makers to step up their game a little.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    He's 100% correct. While some of us enjoy it, most consumers don't. The topic in this particular thread is a company's survival, not personal preference.

    The numbers don't lie, we see what is selling and what's being overlooked.
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I have to say I don't really agree with this. I think the form factor is their only advantage. It doesn't cover the full market or most of the market, but the form follows function and habitual users of this form, and there are a lot, are unlikely to change to a touch screen at current touch screen technology or slider.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    While I agree with pretty much the rest of your post, I highly disagree with this.

    I've had plenty of opportunity to switch form factors (and even played around with some of them extensively). Simply put Palm's fits my needs the best.

    Palm is well recognized for it's design. It'd be like complaining about Jeep's because they all look the same, or how Window's has kept the same basic look and feel since 2.0 (at least until Vista, something that MS caught a lot of backlash on).

    It's a tough business because people don't like change, but at the same time want something new and fresh. Those are really opposing desires, and trying to meet both is something even the best companies stumble on.
    I agree with Aero to a degree, and a lot with Ebag - I believe that the form factor is a VERY strong form factor. Look at Blackberry - they've used a similar if not same, form factor on the blackberry for a while. I hate touchscreen only devices and devices without a qwerty, and sliding devices like the Tilt or Mogul. To me, the combination of the front qwerty, touchscreen, and palm's enhancements are enough to make me happy. I can't really think of a better form factor from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint. Of course, if you're into more multimedia, I can see how other form factors are stronger, but for emailing, texting, phone calls, and light browsing, the Treo "just works."

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Once upon a time some people thought Enron would never die too!
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I knew someone would mention that Enron fell because of corruption. The point is, regardless of the reason, plenty of companies that people "feel" won't go under do go under. And many more projected to go under do go under.

    I'm personally more concerned about Sprint staying afloat than Palm. Typically a good device last me fine till I decide to upgrade to another and my current Treo 800w is fine.
    That was due to Enron's strong position, everyone thought they were a solid company, even when evidence to the contrary was building up. Palm is different as it isn't hiding its struggles. Wholly different scenario here.



    Quote Originally Posted by cglaguna View Post
    The problem with our business ethics as a whole is, if you are making money that is good, no matter what you do, if you are losing it, CORRUPTION!
    How many times are big money making companies hit with corruption charges?
    They are, but I investigate fraud in companies for a living and there's a LOT that people never hear about with these companies. Alot of alleged frauds turn out to be nothing more than either errors or a couple of people that made some wrong decisions. In a lot of cases, the tone at the top is very ethical, it's just some bad eggs that are in lower/closer to daily operations that slip past the company's controls.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I'm not completely sure about that. Samsung does the same design over and over with Blackjacks and it's similar to Palm Treo. Blackjacks sell pretty well, so it would seem, even though they've had complaints too.

    Samsung took the same Treo-like form factor and made it slimmer BEFORE the Pro ever came out. Plus they lowered the price and still offered a professional device for those who can deal with the Standard version of WM. Now they have the Epix, same Blackjack form factor, but with full WM 6.1 Pro and features same as the Treo Pro, for $100 less. And let's not forget the many forms of the Motorola Q. And how about the popularity of the Dash, another Treo-like form factor? RIM's Curve looks like the Treo form factor, modified of course, but still. And even on Palm's own front, the Centro sold more than the Treo apparently.

    I think many consumers DO prefer the Treo form factor, but the price for what they were getting is what didn't help the Treo. The Treo was thicker and less attractive in many people's eyes, plus did not have all the up-to-date features and too many bugs, but still commanded a high price.

    I hate to say it, but personally I think Palm needs to offer up the Treo Pro as a subsidized phone to gain some ground on the Treo front, at least in the US. People here still look at price as a determining factor. If you have others selling lower priced, thin fully featured phones, even if locked to carriers, people here will buy them first. I certainly don't favor butchered ROMs and firmware, but it may be the only way for Palm to gain some ground again for it's Treos, since the Pro is the Treo they should have released a LONG time ago. But $550 is steep for a lot of people.
    Remember, Palm's biggest customers are the carriers. I agree that they need to get the Pro subsidized, and they will eventually on a US carrier.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post

    That was due to Enron's strong position, everyone thought they were a solid company, even when evidence to the contrary was building up. Palm is different as it isn't hiding its struggles. Wholly different scenario here.

    Now what evidence do you have for us that Palm absolutely is not near going bust? Because their numbers are not looking good at all.

    I don't know if they will or won't die, but I certainly won't rule out that they might given their current position.
  9. #29  
    Am I the only one who has gotten the impression from some of the hints Ed Colligan and others have dropped that there will be more than one form factor offered for Nova phones? So maybe everyone will be happy. Or almost everyone.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieScratch View Post
    Am I the only one who has gotten the impression from some of the hints Ed Colligan and others have dropped that there will be more than one form factor offered for Nova phones? So maybe everyone will be happy. Or almost everyone.
    Unless Rubinstein thinks differently, Palm's idea of "different form factors" can be little more than the difference between the Treo 6xx/7xx, Pro and Centro, not something as paradigmatic as the difference between clamshell, touchscreen-only, and QWERTY phones. I hope I'm wrong.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Now what evidence do you have for us that Palm absolutely is not near going bust? Because their numbers are not looking good at all.

    I don't know if they will or won't die, but I certainly won't rule out that they might given their current position.
    Nowhere did I state that Palm isn't "going bust." My point was simply that Palm and Enron are not comparable in any fashion, and in particular, especially not in the discussion of failure (in Enron's case) or deep struggles (Palm).
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Unless Rubinstein thinks differently, Palm's idea of "different form factors" can be little more than the difference between the Treo 6xx/7xx, Pro and Centro, not something as paradigmatic as the difference between clamshell, touchscreen-only, and QWERTY phones. I hope I'm wrong.
    I think, fortunately, that you are wrong I believe it was stated that the centro and treo lines would keep the same form factor (particularly the Treo, as that's what most business users prefer), but Nova devices would provide some new, innovative form factors.

    I personally think that with Palm's history as a PDA company, the lessons it has learned in the smartphone world, and the fact that they are one company that truly understands how to make devices "make sense", that they will have a very powerful, useful, and effective mobile OS that doesn't sacrifice too much. For example, Android is open but it's still missing a lot of important pieces and the iPhone is so closed up that there are things we may never see that we want (copy/paste, MMS, etc.). With Palm OS, you could do whatever you wanted, install any application, customize it, etc. The problem with POS is that it got dated and nobody adopted POS 6. Android and iPhone are missing strong PIM apps natively built in and a host of other features that are found on PDAs. This is one area that Palm can really step up the game.

    In my opinion, the current smartphone has to do the following (in no particular order):
    A. Good Webbrowsing
    B. GPS navigation/maps
    C. PIM (Calendar, Tasks, Contacts, Notes)
    D. Multimedia
    E. Email
    F. Phone (and SMS/MMS etc.)

    Android has A, B (only maps/location, not turn by turn), and F down fairly well, but currently doesn't have very good support for the rest. iPhone has A, B (to an extent, same as Android), D, E, F (to an extent, there are still glaring issues such as reception/MMS). WM does all besides D well (with the help of Opera for A), and POS does C, E, and F well but falls on its face with the rest.

    Nova has the opportunity to do all 6 things very well, making it a potentially powerful, useful, and fun OS. Now we just have to wait and see.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    Nowhere did I state that Palm isn't "going bust." My point was simply that Palm and Enron are not comparable in any fashion, and in particular, especially not in the discussion of failure (in Enron's case) or deep struggles (Palm).
    I think you and some others are over applying my mention of Enron. Which was simply to point out we should never assume a company can't go under.

    And honestly, we can't assume there is no corruption at Palm, although I'm certainly not trying at all to make any such assertion.

    What we have here in Palm (notice I'm saying nothing about Enron in this statement), is a company with some really bad looking numbers. And yes they could go bust if they don't turn things around, fast. I don't think the current economy is conducive to many companies, that sell high end products and currently are in financial trouble, finding a well spring of customers to save them.
  14. cgk
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I'm not completely sure about that. Samsung does the same design over and over with Blackjacks and it's similar to Palm Treo. Blackjacks sell pretty well, so it would seem, even though they've had complaints too.


    You are comparing chalk and cheese - that's ONE product line for samsung - they have multiple streams - WM6 devices, java sevices, even s60 devices and a whole range of form factors.
  15. #35  
    I thought you(or whoever said that) meant Palm should be faulted for using the same form factor over and over for the Treo. I was just saying that Samsung did the same with the Blackjack and that phone line seems to be doing OK.

    I don't really think it's the form factor itself, but the way Palm handled it that was the real problem. Leaving it thick and blockish for too long, and leaving out features for the price didn't help. Samsung lowered the price with carriers, thinned it out and threw in wifi along with 3G, although the US version dropped wifi(AT&T request no doubt). But that's what people were looking for and Samsung knew enough to offer it. Even without the wifi, Blackjack does very well with a similar form factor.

    BTW, I'm well aware that Samsung is a full electronics company with many product lines and many types of phones.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 10/23/2008 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Clarification.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Tickness is part of a device's form factor. Given many get their Treos with the exception of the Treo Pro through some subsidized carrier pricing, I don't think price was the biggest factor. Especially considering IPhones are not cheap and have you seen how much they sell for in places like India? (In India Apple markets the IPhone for several times higher than they do in the USA and it's still very popular there.) But people in India are trying to get an IPhone anyway.

    The BB has business customers and does because RIM didn't try doing very much. They made a phone with e-mail and have the patent for their own secure push technology. They targeted what business consumers wanted and left it at that. Apple with the IPhone presented a feature set and look, that ordinary consumers wanted. Palm didn't offer the look and although they'd like the business consumers, Treos simply are not topping the BB in the business market, plus the Treo attempts to do more than many business consumers really need.

    Palm could have come with a new form factor, but tried to mock the BB look in a space the BB already dominates, which left Palm without enough business customers and a device with little appeal to average consumers. Now Palm has come with a new look in the Treo Pro, that simply copies the IPhone look. Not exactly what I'd call innovation in the design aspect of things.

    And yes the Treos have had a history of bugs and slow fixes, that leave both business and average consumers turning away from Treos.

    Treo Pro looks nothing like the iPhone to me, except for the black shiny surface, but any phone could have that. If anything, many of the keyboardless touchscreen phones DO try to copy the iPhone's interface. But I just don't see it in the Treo Pro.

    I do think pricing was a big factor here at home where Palm's main customer base is. Because Treos were still a bit high when subsidized and had too many bugs and less features for the price. When other phones came out that were less with more features, or had more features even at the same price, Treos fell by the wayside.

    As for Blackberries, they always just worked out of the box and when they started adding consumer properties along with easy business function, that was another reason Treos fell out of popularity with both business and consumer customers.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 10/23/2008 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Addition.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    The TreoPro is really just another WM6 handset. It won't save Palm. It's not available subsidized because the US GSM carriers are probably not interested in offering it.
    That could only be AT&T judging by the bands offered. I read a rumor on here that it would eventually go to AT&T, not sure if it's true or not though. Also there's Rogers Canada they could have gone to, since Rogers is a lot faster at offering the latest phones than AT&T.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    RIM is copy catting other devices including the IPhone right now.

    Things were pretty mundane till the IPhone caused device makers to step up their game a little.
    Its true that the Storm does copy from the IPhone in many respects, however it adds its own innovations and comes with all the usual RIM strengths. Lets hope they fixed the Web browser (a traditional RIM weakness).

    None of their other devices are copying anything as far as I can tell.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I think you and some others are over applying my mention of Enron. Which was simply to point out we should never assume a company can't go under.
    Because it was a lazy comparison that should never have been made in the first place. Enron isn't even a good example of the public assuming a company can never go under. Even before Enron was suspected of corruption, Fortune magazine and others were questioning the company's high valuation.

    What we have here in Palm (notice I'm saying nothing about Enron in this statement), is a company with some really bad looking numbers. And yes they could go bust if they don't turn things around, fast. I don't think the current economy is conducive to many companies, that sell high end products and currently are in financial trouble, finding a well spring of customers to save them.
    True. I think Elevation Partners will gradually extend their investment in Palm due to the hands-on product development that Rubinstein's been overseeing. After canceling the Foleo, demanding aggressive layoffs, and vetoing a range of form factors, Elevation must see a light at the end of the tunnel.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Now Palm has come with a new look in the Treo Pro, that simply copies the IPhone look. Not exactly what I'd call innovation in the design aspect of things.
    That's absurd. How in the world does the Treo Pro look like the iPhone? It has a front facing QWERTY keyboard and a square screen. The iPhone's hallmark is its buttonless, touchscreen-only interface that spans most of the length of the device. Please, take a break from your iPhone reverence and realize that black rectangles have been the default alternative to clamshells for more than a decade. The Treo Pro looks more like my circa 1998 Qualcomm QCP-2760 then the iPhone.
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