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  1.    #1  
    [An interesting editorial from TamsPalm blog (Austrian), also corresponds with my recent personal experiences with my ageing Treo 650, and many other user tales (JVM discontinued, no Gmail client, no location information in Google Maps with older models, Vista desktop is a running joke...).

    Makes you question whether the planned transition from PalmOS to Nova will make or break Palm, and how quickly models like Centro will be allowed to become obsolete. If Palm's margins on WindowsMobile are too slim to survive, that seems to say the company isn't viable unless it manages to successfully migrate most of its PalmOS-enthusiast user-base to Nova, whenever that finally happens (Jun 2009?). And is the split OS strategy sensible anyway or just an expensive diversion? Adopting WM should never have been necessary if the successor to PalmOS had come out when promised (2003).

    But by mid-2009, Nova-class devices will be competing with gPhone, iPhone 2.0, BBs and so on. Why would a new user choose Nova?]

    tamspalm.tamoggemon.com/2008/08/16/why-dmitry-grinberg-got-attacked-by-palm/

    Why Dmitry Grinberg got attacked by Palm
    By Tam Hanna

    Cutting a long story short: developers should be extremely wary of their relationship to the boys in Orange. The Palm OS has been declared dead inside Palm’s; Palm OS customers are seen as fossils with whom no further revenue can be generated until they buy a new device. Thus, killing them off ASAP is a high-priority thing. I would not be surprised to find a variety of recommended-breakage points inside the Centro as to limit its useful life span.

    Palm’s next problem is its upcoming Nova OS. Seeing that the company IMHO is not able to survive on Windows Mobile devices alone, the operating system is needed to differentiate its products from others. However, nobody except existing Palm nuts will feel like switching to Nova…but Palm nuts will not switch until their hardware breaks down (or the OS offers ground-breaking new features, which I dare to question seeing that it hasn’t even booted so far as to my sources).

    Cutting a long story short: Palm must make its existing users lives as miserable as possible in order to stay alive on a long-term perspective. Developers who create applications that prolong the life span of existing devices should expect resistance from Palm in all ways possible…as should customers who expect customer care after the warranty period…
    Last edited by smci; 09/22/2008 at 03:25 AM. Reason: postscript
  2. #2  
    Why should it be Palm's responsibility to provide you with GMail? Come to think of it, the 700P and 2 Centros in the family get GMail. JVM support? Licensing was the reason I was given. Vista desktop? I have 2 Vista laptops, both 17" that hit without a problem with the 700P and 2 Centros.
  3. #3  
    JVM support is their problem regardless of the reason, particularly considering how many people want to run java apps like Opera Mini.
  4. #4  
    The developer received a cease and desist letter from Palm's outside counsel for using Palm's trademarked name without permission. This is no big deal and is probably not understood by an offshore blog.
  5. #5  
    I have a Centro and I have absolutely no regrets. Nowadays, you just have to plan to upgrade every 2 or 3 years or you will get left in the dust. Technology changes too fast for Palm or anyone else to support their legacy devices for much beyond that. Who wants to use 5-year old technology anyway?

    By the time Palm comes out with the next great thing, I will likely be ready for another upgrade.
  6. #6  
    Palm Desktop runs fine on my Vista systems and ChatterEmail handles my GMail account flawlessly. My Centro is soon to be a year old and has not had any issues. The battery cover is slightly scuffed, but that's no big deal.
  7. #7  
    Other than my desire for multi-tasking, I find the Centro to be more than capable of meeting my needs. A fantastic device that ran just great with my 2 Vista laptops.
  8.    #8  
    That was never Tam's point.
    palmpowerups.com had existed since at least 2006, with no cease-and-desist.
    The presumable reason Palm recently did it was Grinberg was threatening the potential Nova revenue by allowing people to squeeze more performance from legacy devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    This is no big deal and is probably not understood by an offshore blog.
    That's kind of condescending. Tam's Palm blog is pretty sharp, check the link.
    Tam's point is that this is a possible sign of more things to come. Consider also the JVM and webmail fiasco on Treos, or the joke level of Vista support. It ain't seamless like an iPhone. Sure seems like PalmOS support is getting downplayed.
    If the successor to PalmOS was finally ready this Christmas we might not mind, but should we really wait till 3Q/2009 to find out if it's viable or not, especially when there are many very good rival products?
    Sounds like a great way to lose the userbase.
  9.    #9  
    Noone said it was their 'responsibility', anymore than it is my 'responsibility' to stick with Palm, wait around to buy Nova or even believe that the company will not implode by 2010 (mess up Christmas 2009 sales, then get acquired at a discount).
    I can't access any next-generation webmail from my Treo 650, and I only recently learned about the JVM fiasco.
    I do not believe in buying a new device every 9-12 months to get software upgrades and features which I might reasonably expect to get automatically, I usually keep mine 4+ years.

    >Come to think of it, the 700P and 2 Centros in the family get GMail.
    Yes I know that. The cutoff date for devices which aren't supported is only <3 years. In which case, you're out of luck. 3 years obsolescence is very short and not acceptable to me.

    >JVM support? Licensing was the reason I was given.
    Oh nonsense. I don't care what the nominal excuse was, I'm annoyed that Palm didn't pay the $$ to support the JVM. And also that me and many people I know weren't properly notified - even though I was at palm.com downloading the Vista desktop. They had every opportunity to email me "Oh by the way, Treo 650 supports will be phased out..."

    So now Palm trails the capabilities of iPhone and gPhone (assume MobileMe should be working properly soon)

    >Vista desktop? I have 2 Vista laptops

    You presumably mean the 6.2.2 not 6.2beta, which was awful and unstable (many woes with sync, install and backup - just google for that).
    Either way, PalmOS Desktop 6.2.x was a feature downgrade from 4.2/4.1.4E
    Worse GUI, clunky screen layout and navigation, no new features, no contact conduits... missed opportunity to add some sorely-needed functionality.
    Also makes us skeptical how good Nova will be.
  10.    #10  
    The thread was about killing off support for legacy models.
    As I remarked the obsolescence horizon seems to be about 3 years.
    Do you think your Centro will stil run well in another 2+ years?
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by smci View Post
    The thread was about killing off support for legacy models.
    As I remarked the obsolescence horizon seems to be about 3 years.
    Do you think your Centro will stil run well in another 2+ years?
    Many people still use 650's.. Go troll elsewhere.
  12. #12  
    I don't think he was trolling, just stating his opinion and asking questions.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13.    #13  
    Please stop being so rude. I'm actually looking for specific answers to my questions.
    (e.g. Do you even use Blazer as a browser on 650? How often does it fail to render a page or crash? How do you read your webmail?)
    I'm a longtime Treo enthusiast and I have no especial reason to stop using it, other than that Palm is making my life difficult, and the features I want don't exist.
    Palm's obolescence horizon of 3 years is too short and when they go to Nova, it may get shorter.
    People these days expect seamless browsing, contact management and webmail. But on 650 you can't even install the JVM without an expansion card, for example. Google's location-sensing doesn't work on 650 etc.
    You don't hear these experiences from iPhone users and you won't hear them from gPhone users either.
  14. #14  
    smci, Palm's issue was that Dmitry was selling an application with Palm in its name. This could imply that Palm was involved in the design or development of the application or had authorized it and would be responsible for providing support for that application. He has since renamed the application so that it does not violate Palm's trademarks and the matter is over with. In fact it has been over with for some time now.

    The 650 has been discontinued for some time now and some of the features from outside sources you are looking to add did not exist yet at the time the 650 was discontinued. It is unreasonable to expect updates for discontinued products, especially when they apply to unknown technologies and systems. Is the web browser on your computer the same as it was in 2004?

    As to JVM, this was a low demand add-on and the contract Palm had with IBM reached its end of life. Are you aware that it is not possible to install any file that has an extension other than .pdb or .prc to internal memory on a PalmOS device? While there may be some OperaMini fans, they are in the distinct minority of the Palm user base.

    Good luck finding a phone that does everything exactly as you demand.
  15. #15  
    Are you sure about that concerning Opera Mini? That hasn't been my experience. People actually seem to prefer that browser over all others on smaller screen phones. And for Palm to never support it was a bad move IMO.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16.    #16  
    I'm not here to argue with any of you folks, I'm just astonished that you all seem to be happy accepting Palm killing off legacy Treo support BEFORE the Nova replacement for PalmOS is launched. (The Grinberg story was just one of a million anecdotes to illustrate.)
    Killing off legacy PalmOS right now is not smart business and it's not good for the userbase either. When most companies (e.g. Microsoft) slip their deadlines, they extend legacy support till the replacement is there. No way would I buy a Treo Pro plus a new contract just to tide me through 2008/9.

    Good luck finding a phone that does everything exactly as you demand.
    It already exists (iPhone 1.0 + MobileMe, and presumably Android-class phones - only the service fees might be too high (all advice welcome?). If Palm was only rolling out Nova devices now with the same promised functionality, then we would not have a problem. But Nova is very late, and they will miss all of 2008, and half of 2009. In anyone's language that's a messup. Apple has overtaken Palm in only four short years.

    As to JVM, this was a low demand add-on and the contract Palm had with IBM reached its end of life.
    The demand exploded when gMail (the ultimate killer app) emerged. But it was always weak that they were dependent on a third-party JVM + another third-party app to provide functionality which for example Apple do themselves. If they had done some equivalent in-house, then it should still be working.

    Are you aware that it is not possible to install any file that has an extension other than .pdb or .prc to internal memory on a PalmOS device? While there may be some OperaMini fans, they are in the distinct minority of the Palm user base.
    No, but our point is that Blazer sucks - would you disagree? I keep asking for advice on solutions and features, and people just keep pointing out limitations and Palm's official excuses why they are losing competitiveness.


    smci, Palm's issue was that Dmitry was selling an application with Palm in its name.
    I know that, and so does Tam's article, that's not the reason! Palm never expressed any dissatisfaction with it between 2006-2008.
    Treo is also a registered trademark of Palm, is it not, and there are a ton of unaffiliated sites with 'treo' in their URL.
    Why would they want to dissociate themselves only from apps which squeeze more life out of retro models, and not dissociate themselves from any other app publishers?

    The 650 has been discontinued for some time now
    You're conflating two different things - obviously 650s haven't been sold since late-2006, but it was still very much supported by Palm, for doing precisely the sorts of things I want. I'm notaware of an official notice from Palm that SUPPORT for the 650 was discontinued. In any case, are you all ok with 3-yr obsolescence? I'm not. How long do you think iPhone 1.0s (unlocked) will continue to live on for?

    and some of the features from outside sources you are looking to add did not exist yet at the time the 650 was discontinued.
    I disagree. JVMs existed back in 2006, and that's all we needed really. Developer preview copies of Vista existed too (my friend had one).

    It is unreasonable to expect updates for discontinued products, especially when they apply to unknown technologies and systems. Is the web browser on your computer the same as it was in 2004?
    I still don't accept that 650 support was officially discontinued, nor that that would be acceptable after only 3 yrs. All this stuff is happening silently.
    Just to give you an extreme idea what's possible - I ran a PC with Windows 98 SE until September 2007. Upgrading PDAs every 9 mths is nutty, expensive, polluting, wasteful. Being forced to upgrade every 2.5yrs is not ok by me either.

    Best,
    S
  17. UserOne
    UserOne's Avatar
    #17  
    I don't know enough to make claims on OperaMini's popularity among mobile browser users... especially since it seems to be the default browser for other carriers (like AT&T). However, I can say that I tend to prefer Blazer over OperaMini on my 755p for one main reason... OperaMini is simply too unstable on my 755p. Perhaps this is just an issue with my device or other third-party apps I have, but that has been my experience.

    Back on the original topic tho, I must admit that I am looking into other devices like the Android & Blackberry Thunder / Storm . Although I have used palm devices for many years, the biggest deciding factor lies in what device will fit my needs the best. So far, the palm os treo's have remained at the top of my list when it comes time to purchase a new device or upgrade my old one.

    Just my .02... L8R
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by smci View Post
    Please stop being so rude. I'm actually looking for specific answers to my questions.
    (e.g. Do you even use Blazer as a browser on 650? How often does it fail to render a page or crash? How do you read your webmail?)
    I'm a longtime Treo enthusiast and I have no especial reason to stop using it, other than that Palm is making my life difficult, and the features I want don't exist.
    Palm's obolescence horizon of 3 years is too short and when they go to Nova, it may get shorter.
    People these days expect seamless browsing, contact management and webmail. But on 650 you can't even install the JVM without an expansion card, for example. Google's location-sensing doesn't work on 650 etc.
    You don't hear these experiences from iPhone users and you won't hear them from gPhone users either.
    It doesn't seem to make sense to compare the obsolete Treo 650 with a new model like the iPhone. You should compare the Centro to the iPhone instead. Compare the Treo 650 with another 4 year old phone and see how it compares.
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  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonylmiller View Post
    It doesn't seem to make sense to compare the obsolete Treo 650 with a new model like the iPhone. You should compare the Centro to the iPhone instead. Compare the Treo 650 with another 4 year old phone and see how it compares.
    Actually it is a little unfair on the iPhone. The 650 actually works as a phone/communications device, the iPhone is a PDA with a nice interface, and a wireless radio that occasionally performs as advertised.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by smci View Post
    It already exists (iPhone 1.0 + MobileMe, and presumably Android-class phones - only the service fees might be too high (all advice welcome?). If Palm was only rolling out Nova devices now with the same promised functionality, then we would not have a problem. But Nova is very late, and they will miss all of 2008, and half of 2009. In anyone's language that's a messup. Apple has overtaken Palm in only four short years.
    S
    Have you actually tried to use an iPhone? I've tried several times now actually given it a month or so to get used to it, they just don't cut it. From something simple like forwarding a text message, to finding a contact, the phone is not a quick simple device to use. ( my thoughts are it's largely a superficial device that punters with no smartphone experience will be wow'd by)

    Now while everyone is slagging off Palm, think about this. How hard do you reckon they are working on NOVA? I mean if it doesn't work, isn't just the most amazing thing, then thats it! Thats the end for all of them, the company just wont exist.

    Have a look at who is currently buying Palm stock in large amounts, yep its the directors. Do they know something we don't?

    Personally I think we should all bombard them with suggestions/hints whatever about what we would like/need from a new smart phone.

    I'll give it a shot.

    Apple have spent years selling computers to small business', graphic design etc. Under the guise of easy networking. None of these places could afford to run exchange. They are all screaming out for some sort of calendar sharing. Did Apple offer it with the iPhone. Nah uh!

    How many homes now have a mac instead of a PC in the lounge or office or kitchen. How many families run their lives with iCal? How great would it be if all the members of those families could wirelessly access at least one shared calendar, whilst at the same time keeping their own personal (private) calendar on their PDA/Wireless device.

    Given these two scenarios I think Palm would be mad if they didn't offer something either server based (like mobile me, which doesn't do this) or software based that allowed this to happen. (Go have a look at the iPhone forums, and the number of threads from couples & small business' who just want to share a calendar)

    I'll go one step further, and say Palms new device should be able to slot seamlessly into the iPhone and Symbian sync environment, at least at a basic level, and Palms new "desktop" should/must be compatible with as many platforms as possible.

    Just my 2 worth....
    Last edited by dbmgreen; 09/24/2008 at 07:32 AM.
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