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  1. #41  
    I won't make excuses for Palm so you're preaching to the choir about no wifi, LOL! I've been wishing that for a LONG time. There's just no excuse for even the WM Treos not to have wifi! And yes, for phones in that price range, at least one with wifi should have been standard.

    And I also don't understand why there's no Java client for Treo. I had to install full Opera on my 750. Mini would have sufficed because I only do minimal browsing on a phone.

    But 3G should have been on the iPhone, it takes too much time to load a page due to using full HTML. People just need to be informed that the battery life shortens.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    And I also don't understand why there's no Java client for Treo. I had to install full Opera on my 750. Mini would have sufficed because I only do minimal browsing on a phone.[/COLOR]
    There's quite a few JVM's available for WindowsMobile (Treo 750)--have been for years--when PalmOS got GoogleMaps first, WM users sufficed with JVM + GoogleMaps.

    For neurocutie:

    As for OperaMini--it's for for java based phones. Running an emulator in PalmOS or WM is a workaround. Opera could have invested into developing a Opera for POS client had they wanted and with the Centro doing so well, they would have made a buck (assuming the technical feasibility).

    But using JVM for any app on top of another OS is a kludge, not a solution. So the reason for the instability on PalmOS could just as well be Opera Mini (it's no gem on WM either)--in fact plenty of Java apps run pretty well on it (Plusmo for one). IBM makes JVM and Palm has to license it, something which they've recently discontinued to cut unnecessary costs--outside of a few powerusers, installing and running JVM is a chore.

    I find no difference between Blazer and PIE--in fact at least Palm put in a a "find text" feature quite awhile back, something which PIE is still missing. A lot of new people to Blazer actually find it quite nice to use.

    For the record, WM 6.1 Standard adds cut/paste, finally.

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  3. #43  
    No built-in one on the 750, from what I could see. All other WM phones I used have a built-in one.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    No built-in one on the 750, from what I could see. All other WM phones I used have a built-in one.
    That's up to the carrier/OEM to add them--Sprint only recently added them to their devices with the 6800 and Touch; the Moto Q, 700wx, 6700, 6600 never had it. Either way, that program can be added via 3rd party and is free--it's not something made by the OEMs or even MS. But if you "mass release" it, I'm sure there are licensing fees.

    Sprint only added it to access their Music store, not really thinking about the power-user

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  5.    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ...As for OperaMini--it's for for java based phones. Running an emulator in PalmOS or WM is a workaround. ...
    But using JVM for any app on top of another OS is a kludge, not a solution.
    Well, I'm not sure why you state things this way, since I'm quite sure you know otherwise...
    I'm sure you know that no phone or system runs Java "natively" in the true sense of the word. That essentially ALL Java platforms are JVMs (Java VIRTUAL MACHINEs) running on top of something else... some OS or OS-like environment -- nobody runs a CPU that handles Java bytecodes natively -- its ALL interpreted or JIT-compiled.

    And a so-called "java-based" phone just means that the ODM included a JVM in the phone, nothing more. That most non-smartphones can also run OperaMini simply means that most phones these days include a JVM as a means to facilitate some kind of 3rd party app development, not that they are "java-based" in any special way. (I suppose you might mean in contrast to BREW phones, but that hardly counts... neither are native in any real sense).

    So your statement basically means that ALL Java apps are running in "kludged" environments, which of course is a silly way to think about it... because that was the original intention of Java, as part of the "write once, run everywhere" idea... that a Java app could run on ANY OS -- indeed often within a browser on top of an OS, and didn't require a "java-based" device or system, whatever that might mean...

    As far as a PalmOS Opera, sure that would have been a good idea, though with Palm app development stagnant as a whole, that probably didn't look like a good investment to Opera. Indeed, even Opera Mobile for Windows Mobile is, by most accounts, a very marginalized effort on the part of Opera... most feel Opera really supports OM/WM only half-heartedly, and fixes and updates have been few and far between. There's a good chance that between Picsel, Skyfire, Mozilla and Netfront, and (?forgot name?), OperaMobile/WM may lose its front running status in the WM world.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Well, I'm not sure why you state things this way, since I'm quite sure you know otherwise...
    I'm sure you know that no phone or system runs Java "natively" in the true sense of the word. That essentially ALL Java platforms are JVMs (Java VIRTUAL MACHINEs) running on top of something else... some OS or OS-like environment -- nobody runs a CPU that handles Java bytecodes natively -- its ALL interpreted or JIT-compiled.
    While you are technically correct, what I was referring to (and didn't make clear) was on WM and POS devices there is no need to run Java based apps since it is an open development platform--running a Java app is a kludge in this sense since you can't access a lot of core system properties e.g. downloading a file from a web browser via the Java-based system (or possibly that's just the way Opera made the browser b/c of the server issue).

    But if one can use a native app, that is always preferable to Java based. Java is not the future of WM or other smartphones.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    As far as a PalmOS Opera, sure that would have been a good idea, though with Palm app development stagnant as a whole, that probably didn't look like a good investment to Opera. Indeed, even Opera Mobile for Windows Mobile is, by most accounts, a very marginalized effort on the part of Opera... most feel Opera really supports OM/WM only half-heartedly, and fixes and updates have been few and far between. There's a good chance that between Picsel, Skyfire, Mozilla and Netfront, and (?forgot name?), OperaMobile/WM may lose its front running status in the WM world.
    • Picsel is not available for sale to indivduals.
    • Mozilla is non-existent at this point
    • Opera version 9.5 is quite the major overhaul

    Opera will continue to do very well on WM.

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  7. #47  
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ghlight=iphony
    the iphony app download. O_o lemme if you think I shoudl take this off. some dude just got in trouble for posting a SCREENSHOT.
    http://www.pdaload.ru/modules.php?na...Phony&pid=palm
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    #48  
    I can't explain it, but Jobs has somehow turned Apple into a fashion statement
    Hear Hear!

    Out of all the questions in the world to ask, she asked if it had a camera on it
    Excellent point. It seems like the iPhone's targeted consumer is more like twenty something "smartphone" newcomers, not seasoned business types that actually have to do business on it. Information Week said it succinctly: "It's a great iPod married to a still-in-development phone." After submerging myself in reams of info, reviews and opinions on it around Christmas, it sure didnt seem like a good idea for someone who had to conduct business with it. On the job, I have 10 users with Treos, syncing email from an Exchange box. We started with the 650, then the 700p. They really were frought with problems. I just got a 755p, and it hands down is the stablest yet.

    But as to Palm's tired OS, Engadget said it best:

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/21/d...-intervention/
    Pushing the Boundaries of Disorganization
  9. Minsc's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    While you are technically correct, what I was referring to (and didn't make clear) was on WM and POS devices there is no need to run Java based apps since it is an open development platform--running a Java app is a kludge in this sense since you can't access a lot of core system properties e.g. downloading a file from a web browser via the Java-based system (or possibly that's just the way Opera made the browser b/c of the server issue).

    But if one can use a native app, that is always preferable to Java based. Java is not the future of WM or other smartphones.
    Mal, not sure I understand your point here. How exactly are WM and POS "open development platforms"? I'm going to assume (always dangerous) that you mean that - unlike the iPhone - there are SDK's available. (of course, doesn't every computing platform except the iPhone have an SDK available??)
    As far as there being "no need to run Java", I completely disagree. What language do they require? I'm guessing C or some C derivative. If you're a Java developer that has little experience with C then I doubt you're going to be terribly interested in spending time learning it just to write some apps for your smartphone - especially if you're hoping to have it run on more than 1 platform. Now the reality is that the JVM's available for WM and POS (at least to my knowledge) are fairly lame. So may be a moot point, although having a good JVM is highly desirable IMO, and could expand the platform in a very positive way.

    A quick related question: I noticed that the Touch has a JVM installed on it. I'm assuming that this is at least partially (if not wholly) due to the fact that Sprint's music store application is written in Java. Does anyone know if this is an actual Sun JVM, or is just another knock-off by IBM or some other shop?

    Finally, as for Java not being the future of WM or smartphones, I'm not sure I agree there either. Well, you're probably right on the WM side of things since Microsoft and Java mix like oil and water. The JVM is everywhere, including many smartphones already. (virtually all feature phones use Java extensively) Heck, the entire Android application stack is Java on top of Linux. Too early to call at best, but it's a pretty safe bet that Java will exist on future smartphones in some capacity.
    Last edited by Minsc; 02/19/2008 at 09:53 PM.
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    While you are technically correct, what I was referring to (and didn't make clear) was on WM and POS devices there is no need to run Java based apps since it is an open development platform--running a Java app is a kludge in this sense since you can't access a lot of core system properties e.g. downloading a file from a web browser via the Java-based system (or possibly that's just the way Opera made the browser b/c of the server issue).

    But if one can use a native app, that is always preferable to Java based. Java is not the future of WM or other smartphones.
    Ok, what you say now is pretty different from the way I took the last post... but that's okay... and, at least to-date, I agree... that is, I have yet to find a single Java app that I would prefer to run when a comparable native app is available. And OperaMobile vs Opera Mini is a great example. Despite the sometimes gushing praise people have for Opera Mini (and it is in fact a great accomplishment, no doubt), plus the fullpage/zooming feature it currently has that Opera Mobile 8.65 doesn't have, nevertheless what I use 98% of the time is Opera Mobile 8.65. It just runs better IMHO and its much better when it comes to, e.g. posting on forums, or other situations requiring input.

    So yes I agree, at least thus far, native apps have been generally much better than comparable Java apps.

    But of course that doesn't negate the value of Java apps. Some are really quite wonderful, like ImageJ.

    And I do hope that Opera 9.5 delivers what it promises... And if Skyfire, Netfront, Mozilla, Picsel give Opera a run for its money, so much the better. Palm would be lucky to have such choices for its devices...
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    That's up to the carrier/OEM to add them--Sprint only recently added them to their devices with the 6800 and Touch; the Moto Q, 700wx, 6700, 6600 never had it. Either way, that program can be added via 3rd party and is free--it's not something made by the OEMs or even MS. But if you "mass release" it, I'm sure there are licensing fees.

    Sprint only added it to access their Music store, not really thinking about the power-user
    Current AT&T WM phones have Java except the 750. I think it's the manufacturer in this case.

    Although, I didn't look to see if the Q has it, so I don't know about that one.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    And I do hope that Opera 9.5 delivers what it promises... And if Skyfire, Netfront, Mozilla, Picsel give Opera a run for its money, so much the better. Palm would be lucky to have such choices for its devices...
    Interesting. From the Skyfire site: "Palm OS phones like Treo?
    A: Palm OS phones aren't supported, but Windows Mobile phones offered by Palm, like certain Treo models, are full supported.
    "

    LOL! Palm OS is just getting left behind all over the place!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. Minsc's Avatar
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    #53  
    To answer my own question, the JVM on the Touch is JBed by Esmertec. Should have googled first...
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc View Post
    To answer my own question, the JVM on the Touch is JBed by Esmertec. Should have googled first...
    Yes.... Unfortunately, Sun doesn't make a J2ME JRE for mobile devices anymore...
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
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    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc View Post
    Mal, not sure I understand your point here. How exactly are WM and POS "open development platforms"? I'm going to assume (always dangerous) that you mean that - unlike the iPhone - there are SDK's available. (of course, doesn't every computing platform except the iPhone have an SDK available??)
    As far as there being "no need to run Java", I completely disagree....

    Finally, as for Java not being the future of WM or smartphones, I'm not sure I agree there either. Well, you're probably right on the WM side of things since Microsoft and Java mix like oil and water. The JVM is everywhere, including many smartphones already. (virtually all feature phones use Java extensively) Heck, the entire Android application stack is Java on top of Linux. Too early to call at best, but it's a pretty safe bet that Java will exist on future smartphones in some capacity.
    Can't speak for the iPhone as I don't know the deal with Java there and of course Android will have it incorporated, but when it comes to WM and Palm OS, it's not that the apps are lame, just that they don't work well within the whole system e.g. you have to launch the JVM and then select the app to run from within it--no start menu or quick launcher. Sure it works, but it's hardly ideal. Put it another way: if you use Opera Mini, you can't have it as a standalone icon (not without a tricky hack) on your system, the OS doesn't see it as an optional web browser and it's hard to tie into the file system.

    Now on other phones, like a Razr, etc Java handles itself completely differently--I've run GMaps on those phones and those feel like "true" apps (heck, they can even access the aGPS on those devices). In this sense, yeah Java is huge and very important. But on WM/POS, it really is a kludge to run a simple app--native is always preferable.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    But of course that doesn't negate the value of Java apps. Some are really quite wonderful, like ImageJ.

    And I do hope that Opera 9.5 delivers what it promises... And if Skyfire, Netfront, Mozilla, Picsel give Opera a run for its money, so much the better. Palm would be lucky to have such choices for its devices...
    Agreed.

    Actually--Palm has a deal with Opera, so they do talk and make plans together. My bet: Palm and Opera are working on the next-gen browser for Nova. Releasing now, or even supporting now, a Garnet version will take away resources from both teams.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    LOL! Palm OS is just getting left behind all over the place!
    Well, it is well known that Garnet is EOL and Nova is coming within 12 months (hopefully), so if you were developing software that is just starting in beta (won't be Gold for a few months), what would you concentrate on? lol

    FWIW, dkirker is working on a new browser for Garnet--he's pretty much a one-man team, but very talented--hopefully it will come out soon.

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  16. Minsc's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Can't speak for the iPhone as I don't know the deal with Java there and of course Android will have it incorporated, but when it comes to WM and Palm OS, it's not that the apps are lame, just that they don't work well within the whole system e.g. you have to launch the JVM and then select the app to run from within it--no start menu or quick launcher. Sure it works, but it's hardly ideal. Put it another way: if you use Opera Mini, you can't have it as a standalone icon (not without a tricky hack) on your system, the OS doesn't see it as an optional web browser and it's hard to tie into the file system.

    Now on other phones, like a Razr, etc Java handles itself completely differently--I've run GMaps on those phones and those feel like "true" apps (heck, they can even access the aGPS on those devices). In this sense, yeah Java is huge and very important. But on WM/POS, it really is a kludge to run a simple app--native is always preferable.
    Yeah, I hear you - it's very lame to have to go to an emulator or some such utility and then launch a Java program from that. I think that's an implementation thing between the OS and the JVM, and I'm very hopeful that the next-gen Palm OS will have it incorporated much more cleanly so that you can just tap an icon for a Java app and have it launch just like a native app would.
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc View Post
    it's very lame to have to go to an emulator or some such utility and then launch a Java program from that. I think that's an implementation thing between the OS and the JVM, and I'm very hopeful that the next-gen Palm OS will have it incorporated much more cleanly so that you can just tap an icon for a Java app and have it launch just like a native app would.
    Just to be completely clear... they are not "emulators", they are virtual machines, a fine distinction perhaps, but... Java apps only run on virtual machines... so yes what you are talking about is the user interface aspect of how to start up the virtual machine. And getting that to be pretty on WM is going to be real tough ... I'm sure you'll remember that Sun sued MS some years ago over Java and that MS views Java as a threat. MS went out and essentially wrote their own (C#) just to try to stop the momentum that Java had. So getting MS to make running Java apps to be seamless under WM (or Windows or IE) is going to be like pulling teeth from MS. But Palm could definitely make Java apps seamless in POSII/Nova... presumably they want Garnet apps to be seamless as well.
  18. Minsc's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Just to be completely clear... they are not "emulators", they are virtual machines, a fine distinction perhaps, but... Java apps only run on virtual machines... so yes what you are talking about is the user interface aspect of how to start up the virtual machine. And getting that to be pretty on WM is going to be real tough ... I'm sure you'll remember that Sun sued MS some years ago over Java and that MS views Java as a threat. MS went out and essentially wrote their own (C#) just to try to stop the momentum that Java had. So getting MS to make running Java apps to be seamless under WM (or Windows or IE) is going to be like pulling teeth from MS. But Palm could definitely make Java apps seamless in POSII/Nova... presumably they want Garnet apps to be seamless as well.
    Yep, I know - I call it emulator just because when I think back to the IBM J9 JVM I installed on my Treo way back when, it's administration/application launching "environment" was called the J9 emulator.

    While I haven't played much with the Touch, it must be utilizing the JVM pretty effectively for its music app since that launches directly from the WM program menu. Unfortunately, it looks like the JBed JVM it uses is only available to OEM's, not individuals. Still, the good news is that if a carrier is motivated, they can probably integrate Java apps into WM fairly effectively.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc View Post
    While I haven't played much with the Touch, it must be utilizing the JVM pretty effectively for its music app since that launches directly from the WM program menu. Unfortunately, it looks like the JBed JVM it uses is only available to OEM's, not individuals. Still, the good news is that if a carrier is motivated, they can probably integrate Java apps into WM fairly effectively.
    Actually if you hang around XDA you'll see the JBed is readily available to download and use (I use it myself)--basically it's been ripped from those devices and redistributed (probably in violation, like using Picsel).

    Regarding the "icon to launch", you can actually do this for any Java app with I'm pretty sure any JVM--but it's not easy. You basically have to create an icon and within the parameters of the icon, add a bunch of "switches" to get it to launch JVM then activate the correct app.

    We figured that out years ago on another forum but it takes some explanation and detailed instructions to get it right--so not for the regular user. In fact I wrote a tutorial on it, lol...

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  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Regarding the "icon to launch", you can actually do this for any Java app with I'm pretty sure any JVM--but it's not easy. You basically have to create an icon and within the parameters of the icon, add a bunch of "switches" to get it to launch JVM then activate the correct app.
    If MS *really* would want to do it right, they could easily imbed the logic in the WM/WinCE kernel, just like the method that Unix/Linux does: it reads the first 2 bytes of the executable file to decide HOW to execute the program/app, whether it is a native app or something that should be handed off to another interpreter, emulator or virtual machine. And the JVM could just be a daemon process waiting to service execution requests, so that you wouldn't have to startup the JVM each time. All trivial stuff to implement if MS wanted to make Java app support completely seamless.
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