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  1. #21  
    I think another company will purchase palm before summer.

    If not, then: New OS will be ready at the end of 2008, but not seen on any devices until 2009... maybe apr... rest of 2009 will be spent explaining the bugs and how great the next update will be for the OS...
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  2. ace587's Avatar
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    #22  
    im a winMo dude, and i really love my treo 750, i hope palm doesnt abandon GSM winMo because they did an awesome job with the treo 750, its the one keeping me from jumping ship to HTC
  3. d1hamby's Avatar
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    #23  
    I know what is possible and what'll make money is the true determination of what we'll see next, but someone has to be planning a device that will take us to the next step. There are so many people working on it. I'm thinking it will have much faster processors and either a single radio that connects to a chain of devices or several radios that each connect to a device. This is where many questions will be answered. We will also have to have a voice recognition software that really works for the device to succeed. Will it be open source or more proprietary software that is where we as consumers are making the choice everytime we buy software. So you choose.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by d1hamby View Post
    I know what is possible and what'll make money is the true determination of what we'll see next, but someone has to be planning a device that will take us to the next step. There are so many people working on it. I'm thinking it will have much faster processors and either a single radio that connects to a chain of devices or several radios that each connect to a device. This is where many questions will be answered. We will also have to have a voice recognition software that really works for the device to succeed. Will it be open source or more proprietary software that is where we as consumers are making the choice everytime we buy software. So you choose.
    None of that means anything if battery life talk time is 30 minutes and standby is 2 hours.
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    #25  
    Centro GSM 2nd QT??? I have heard a lot of rumblings that we will be seeing it in January!! Great Article, and I hope I have a Centro from AT&T next month!!

    Love the Flip idea also..
    "Actions speak louder than words!"

    REX >Palm III > Palm IIIc > Palm V> Palm m505 >Kyo 7135> Treo 650> ARTIC Treo 680> and finally to the Centro!!!
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    None of that means anything if battery life talk time is 30 minutes and standby is 2 hours.
    With all of the features that people demand (3+ types of radios, more memory, faster processors, GPS and slimmer form factors), I wouldn't expect battery life better than that, if the features were to be implemented.

    Battery technology hasn't quite caught up yet.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  7. #27  
    Good article.

    Regarding WiMAX, Palm is at least looking closely at it.

    Eric Benhamou, Palm's outgoing chairman, talks about WiMAX in an interview here.
    And at least one job posting at Palm -for Wireless Solution Manager - mentions WiMAX experience as "a plus".
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Good article.

    Regarding WiMAX, Palm is at least looking closely at it.

    Eric Benhamou, Palm's outgoing chairman, talks about WiMAX in an interview here.
    And at least one job posting at Palm -for Wireless Solution Manager - mentions WiMAX experience as "a plus".
    Neat link.

    I like this part a lot and it would be a dream, but an awesome one, for the 800w to have a GSM radio in it too. I can't wait till 3G worldphones are just a normal offering:
    We are also seeing a breakthrough in our ability to manage multiple radios. The world will now have a multi-radio environment; a 3G radio, a GPS radio, a Bluetooth Radio, and a WiMax radio all on a single device or a small number of devices where the signal processing is done in a multi-radial world so you can manage interference risks and things like that.

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  9. #29  
    I find the assumption that Palm is being secretive about the new OS amusing. I don't think Palm is far enough along in developing the new OS to show anything yet.

    I hope I'm wrong, but Palm has shown me nothing to indicate they're remotely capable of innovating in the handheld space.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  10. #30  
    cue the pacman gameover sound byte. Id say that about does it.
  11. #31  
    I predict Palm will continue to milk Garnet, have more delays with their Linux OS, and watch as Android takes over in Q4, and then decides to dump their Linux for Android (similar to how they dumped Palm OS in favor of Windows Mobile).

    Meanwhile, HTC will continue to erode their base.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    I predict Palm will continue to milk Garnet, have more delays with their Linux OS, and watch as Android takes over in Q4, and then decides to dump their Linux for Android (similar to how they dumped Palm OS in favor of Windows Mobile).
    Please note that Palm has changed the management. I don't think it will happen again.
  13. #33  
    New management is no guarantee...they have had several changes over the years, with little effect.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    I predict Palm will continue to milk Garnet, have more delays with their Linux OS, and watch as Android takes over in Q4, and then decides to dump their Linux for Android (similar to how they dumped Palm OS in favor of Windows Mobile).

    Meanwhile, HTC will continue to erode their base.
    Android will barely make a dent and be as underwhelming/over-hyped as people who have used the SDK suggest it is. All of these "competitors" are hype, just like when Access said it aimed for 30% of the mobile OS market by 2010 via their purchase of Palm OS. They are just fantasies by people projecting popular brand-identification onto untested and under-developed devices.
    Despite pre-release status, some of Android's weaknesses are indefensible. Google's Android team needs to get its act together and figure out how to interact with a rapidly growing community of professional and enthusiast developers. The "release early and often" strategy is generally a good thing, but it utterly fails when infrastructure isn't in place to facilitate proper handling of user feedback. Google has a habit of embracing the early release philosophy with a little too much enthusiasm, and the current situation with Android is emblematic of that approach.
    (source)

    I'm willing to wait and see them be more than hype and anything is possible, but suggesting that by Q4 2008 Android will be more than a blip of the radar is a bit rich, imo.

    Palm never "dumped Palm OS in favor of Windows Mobile" (which contradicts your first sentence about Palm "milking Garnet"-- although I would say they are certainly getting a lot of mileage out of it; Centro works so I have no issue with it). Palm did loose full rights to Garnet (including changing code) for about 14 months to Access after being outbid by them, but now have a "perpetual license".

    WM is aimed at enterprise, Palm OS at small business and increasingly regular users (Centro). Palm has been very clear about this two-pronged strategy for a long time--it's a smart choice not to try and compete against RIM and MS in enterprise but instead concentrate on the currently very weak consumer smartphone market.

    Until HTC releases a WM Pro device with a front qwerty, they won't erode much of the Treo base. Not everyone wants a slider or keyless device.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/01/2008 at 08:50 PM.

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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Palm never "dumped Palm OS in favor of Windows Mobile" (which contradicts your first sentence about Palm "milking Garnet"-- although I would say they are certainly getting a lot of mileage out of it; Centro works so I have no issue with it). Palm did loose full rights to Garnet (including changing code) for about 14 months to Access after being outbid by them, but now have a "perpetual license".
    Then what exactly would you call doing no significant development on a platform -- to the point that some developers are now letting their Garnet versions wither on the vine in preference to WM? While "dumped" might be too strong a word, Palm clearly made a decision about the platform by the time it started selling WM devices. That decision was reinforced by the time the 680 and Centro came onto the market: "PalmOS is really only useful for non-enterprise users, or consumer users... if you want to do serious work, go for WM".

    I would also take exception to the notion that Palm was passive in "losing" it's rights to Garnet... I think it was more like "gave up." Sure, there may have been a business strategy in play, but let's not give the impression that other parties somehow wrangled away Garnet from them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    WM is aimed at enterprise, Palm OS at small business and increasingly regular users (Centro). Palm has been very clear about this two-pronged strategy for a long time--it's a smart choice not to try and compete against RIM and MS in enterprise but instead concentrate on the currently very weak consumer smartphone market.
    Which precisely reinforces the point. The really big question is what Palm expects to do with the new Linux platform. If Palm doesn't want to market it's own software against these big enterprise players, will the new Linux platform replace Garnet and play in the consumer and non-enterprise space (which seems to place it in Android's expected territory)? Or will Palm conveniently change it's marketing message and place Linux against WM and other enterprise players, potentially leaving Garnet to continue it's life in consumer space?

    Either way, Garnet seems to be very unlikely to see much in the way of development activity. But regardless how Palm plans to position the new OS, this more-or-less constant flipflopping over strategy and positioning over time has left a lot of people wondering what Palm's really intending to do in this area and whether they really feel they can actually pull it off now that they've tried to save themselves by playing in the WM space.

    Personally, if Palm really thinks we waited this long for a Linux that can't play in the Enterprise, then they've just wasted all of our time. To bow down and act as if RIM or Microsoft have some magical hold on enterprise functionality would merely demonstrate Palm has lost it's competitive spirit and deserves to be a also-ran.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    Then what exactly would you call doing no significant development on a platform -- to the point that some developers are now letting their Garnet versions wither on the vine in preference to WM?
    How is the new, updated version of Garnet by Access? Here's the thing, you can't get blood from stone and I don't think Garnet can be developed any further. Granted, they could use an icon refresh, but any deeper than that and I don't think the OS will benefit. It's EOL, why develop it any further? Pull your Garnet developers and put them on the new OS, which is what has happened. Then again, the Centro proves that Garnet still can be sold as a bargain device and be a hit.

    I don't buy this notion that developers are dropping Palm OS en masse. Resco, Hobbyist, Toysoft, Go Treo, GX5, Astraware, Splash, pTunes, etc keep releasing not only updates, but new software. True, the WM software community has nearly caught up and that is a good thing, but there is no shortage of software out there and there is very little functional difference between WM and POS for software.
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    While "dumped" might be too strong a word, Palm clearly made a decision about the platform by the time it started selling WM devices. That decision was reinforced by the time the 680 and Centro came onto the market: "PalmOS is really only useful for non-enterprise users, or consumer users... if you want to do serious work, go for WM".
    They made a decision to diversify and with the future of Garnet up in the air, it was a good move in hindsight.
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    I would also take exception to the notion that Palm was passive in "losing" it's rights to Garnet... I think it was more like "gave up." Sure, there may have been a business strategy in play, but let's not give the impression that other parties somehow wrangled away Garnet from them...
    They weren't passive. We all know the history: Palm spun off the OS company and it flopped. It was up for sale and Palm tried to purchase it back and were outbid by the larger and more powerful Access--and that purchase by Access caught a lot of people by surprise. At this point, it seems obvious Access has done nothing substantial with the OS either even though they presumably could.
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    Which precisely reinforces the point. The really big question is what Palm expects to do with the new Linux platform. If Palm doesn't want to market it's own software against these big enterprise players, will the new Linux platform replace Garnet and play in the consumer and non-enterprise space (which seems to place it in Android's expected territory)? Or will Palm conveniently change it's marketing message and place Linux against WM and other enterprise players, potentially leaving Garnet to continue it's life in consumer space?
    Either way, Garnet seems to be very unlikely to see much in the way of development activity. But regardless how Palm plans to position the new OS, this more-or-less constant flipflopping over strategy and positioning over time has left a lot of people wondering what Palm's really intending to do in this area and whether they really feel they can actually pull it off now that they've tried to save themselves by playing in the WM space.
    Taroliw, there is no "big question" and Palm has not flip-flopped on anything. If your only source of information on Palm and their future is a forum, then it may not be clear. If you read what Palm actually says in their press releases and investor relations, it's quite clear:
    Our two-pronged approach is to 1) leverage Windows Mobile and our ODM partners backed by Palm designed expertise to serve our business customers, and 2) build our Palm System Software products for end-to-end seamless consumer solutions.
    ...the Treo 750 and the Treo 700wx which provide 3G performance and enterprise class email for our top end business customers; the Treo 755p, for email focused small and medium businesses; the Treo 700wx for the same customer that also desire a Windows Mobile experience; the Treo 680 and the Treo 500v for prosumers; and now the Palm Centro, which should bring a whole new set of traditional cell phone customers to the Palm brand.
    Our second major focus is the business-to-business email market in close partnership with Microsoft. We believe the days where a CIO feels the need to install a third party server to deliver secure and reliable email are quickly coming to an end.
    We believe this will enable us to get a broader range of solutions to market faster. To leverage our brand and customer connections and deliver more compelling solutions for our medium-sized business and enterprise customers who are demanding Windows Mobile-based solutions.

    Our second major product group will be focused on building solutions for our consumer, prosumer and small business customers. This group will focus on leveraging our Palm system software efforts, our in-house hardware platform designs and our services initiatives to create the most compelling end-user solutions
    Or just look at this SLIDE from Palm about their roadmap. Now, if you can provide contradictory or flip-flopping statements from Palm about their two-pronged approach, I'm all ears...
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    Personally, if Palm really thinks we waited this long for a Linux that can't play in the Enterprise, then they've just wasted all of our time. To bow down and act as if RIM or Microsoft have some magical hold on enterprise functionality would merely demonstrate Palm has lost it's competitive spirit and deserves to be a also-ran.
    This is your opinion. Fact is, a lot of companies either have Exchange already setup, making a transition to WM devices very, very compelling or they have committed to BES. In addition to making a new OS, Palm would be required to make a back-end solution for distribution and remote device management--something that already has been done. So in a sense, you would want to not only double Palm's workload and put them, a company with 1,000 employees, up against RIM and MS, with the latter being a direct partner. So they would compete against themselves and go up against two industry giants. All of this as opposed to the nascent consumer/prosumer market, which evidently everyone is declaring Android the winner of...

    That seems like a poor choice, imo.

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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    How is the new, updated version of Garnet by Access? Here's the thing, you can't get blood from stone and I don't think Garnet can be developed any further. ... It's EOL, why develop it any further? ... They made a decision to diversify and with the future of Garnet up in the air, it was a good move in hindsight. They weren't passive. ...
    Which is sort of why I'm confused why there would be such energy to spin Palm as both having done the right thing (which in some ways I agree with, such as mothballing Garnet, and others I'm just shaking my head about, such as how they (not Access) haven't yet successfully executed on Linux) and also having been a victim (to Access?). But in some sense there doesn't seem to be disagreement with the notion that Garnet is now stagnant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Taroliw, there is no "big question" and Palm has not flip-flopped on anything.
    Hmm... then it might also be a good idea to look at all the information that came out of Palm regarding Foleo. Constant disagreements on positioning, future related products, etc, etc -- and, no, I'm considering only public announcements and interviews. Palm seems to have admitted it's pretty consistently screwed up and given us only minor refreshes -- check out the latest analyst call recording, for example. I think the basic point I was raising is that there is likely to be significant uncertainty about Palm's vision and capability based upon recent performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    This is your opinion. Fact is, a lot of companies either have Exchange already setup, making a transition to WM devices very, very compelling or they have committed to BES.
    LOL Well, of course it's my opinion. No one else was typing for me. Or did you mean to suggest that other comments in the forum regarding the future performance of Palm to whatever it's plan is at the moment are fact? After all, what's the point of discussion if someone's walking around with future facts in their heads?

    I have known organizations that have made the transition to Exchange and BES -- heck I was a BB/BES/Exhange user and administrator back from 2000 to 2002. I loved the Blackberry, but it just can't do what I do with my 680 -- including some Enterprise integration (which can frankly cover a LOT of territory, not just email/PIM). I have seen others attempt such a migration and choke their way back to other solutions (even if they stayed on Exchange) for various reasons. Experience shows that one size doesn't fit all. And just as much as there are some dominant players in the market there is always room for new entrants to bring new life to the application and device space. That's how innovation happens, after all, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ... So in a sense, you would want to not only double Palm's workload and put them, a company with 1,000 employees, up against RIM and MS, with the latter being a direct partner. So they would compete against themselves and go up against two industry giants. All of this as opposed to the nascent consumer/prosumer market, which evidently everyone is declaring Android the winner of...
    Well, Palm hardly created the consumer market. And they will hardly be the only player. Every single one of the majors will be targeting (or have already targetted) this space. So I'm not sure how my little muse about Palm actually staying in the Enterprise space rather than just resell WM was such a huge deal. *shrug* Seems to me that if I were going to dump huge $$$ and engineering hours into developing a completely new platform that I'd want to build it for use by different products in different segments.

    Although, based on the corporate statements you so thoughtfully posted, they would appear to be positioning themselves to point their new OS at the consumer/prosumer space, my question would be "why bother?" There are already other solutions out there, or that could be brought into the fold and adjusted just the same way that Palm did with WM. Why spend all that engineering time if they aren't planning on being a contender with the big boys, irrespective to which markets they choose to play in? Or maybe another question to consider when pondering this might be "What value is Palm really bringing to the table?" and "Can they really deliver that value if they're just repackaging someone else's solution?"

    I'm also not sure what the fixation is about Android. To me, Android just another possibility out there in the ether.. just as whatever Palm has baking for Linux now. I can see an argument that perhaps Palm is better suited to deliver.. but they still haven't delivered yet so who's to say for sure? And who's to say they wouldn't both survive in the marketplace... or, for that matter, that they won't be crushed under the sheer dominance of WM and Blackberry? After all, everyone is looking at the next market growth opportunity, and Palm is hardly the only one to notice the the consumer space.
  18. #38  
    No doubt the confusion over the Foleo and some lineup changes were the direct result of Elevation entering the picture--it is now pretty clear from that WSJ article that it was Rubenstein who killed Foleo and "other projects" to refocus the company--so there was definitely a conflict between "old" and "new" which bore out as the Foleo debacle.

    My view on the whole issue is that Palm screwed up a lot early on and took for granted their community and hardware. Around mid-2007, things shook up there which is resulting in these product changes, delays, etc.

    I'm pretty positive Palm Linux *was* pretty far a long--that is what we have been hearing, then it was "delayed". Dollar to doughnuts that delay was more Elevation/Rubenstein refocusing of the project, which I have much, much more confidence in than the "old" team and whatever their vision for the next-gen product was. So they saw what Palm was working on, stopped it and are refocusing the linux OS--that's the "delay". It's stinks that it's coming out later than sooner, but it's better to get it right.

    As for enterprise, I think it's safe to say the new PalmOS II could be adapted for that, but that Palm currently is not interested in directly competing with MS, especially since it already sells WM Treos and plans to continue doing so--they have a solution to the Enterprise problem and it makes them money as well.

    But the consumer/prosumer area is the most under-developed market right now and has the most room for growth. MS is very slowly entering it, but fundamentally WM is an Enterprise solution, not a consumer one. Same with RIM--but they will attempt to make strides.

    And I agree there is definitely room for Android, Palm OSII, WM, etc. all overlapping--I don't see it as a "there can only be one" type race.

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  19. Stig's Avatar
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    #39  
    Is it just me, or is the link to the original article now dead?
    http://treocentral.com/content/Stories/1468-1.htm

    It's back now, thanks!
    Last edited by Stig; 01/03/2008 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Updated
  20. #40  
    google's gphone android os will be so good and so open to 3rd party developers, that the remaining palm community will embrace it, rather than waiting for another vaporware.
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