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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome View Post
    The cnet story is so laughable that it is not even funny. It was clearly written by someone who has never run a business before.

    As much as I hate to see people losing their jobs right before the holidays, Ed and Jon did exactly the right thing by shaking up the company at this time. It is not how many employees a company has that is important....it is how many right employees that it has that counts.

    Hats off to the Palm management team for making the tough decisions.
    Tough decisions? Oh man, pulease Written by someone who has never run a business? Listen. A monkey could run Palm better than Ed Colligan. It wouldnt take a genius to run this company with just the slightest trace of common sense. I always find it funny that some can still find reasons to praise these fools after all these years of continuing incompetence. Year after year! Its amazing.
    Hats off for making tough decisions? Come on. Really. I`m leaving my hat on, thank you.
    They`ve done absolutely nothing worthy of admiration, other than acting as hatchet men to make it look like they`re getting serious about their internal problems. When they begin to put out stable, innovative products worthy for upgrades, they`ll get some appreciation. As it stands now, they are simply a group of bunglers flailing around, steering what was once a fantastic productline directly into the ground. They`ll get no positive recognition from me.

    The most recent article echoes the one put out in 2001 because quite simply, palm is in pretty much the same or worse position now as it was back then. Seriously. Palm is run by a bunch of paralyzed idiots. PERIOD.
    Last edited by treobk214; 12/13/2007 at 05:03 PM.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ZOMG!!! Exclamations!!!!

    By the time 6.1 hits the market, it'll be the 1 year mark from 6.0 to 6.1 and if you think adding a sliding notifications menu & threaded SMS* was worth it...
    My point is MSFT seems to be constantly working on a new OS and actually has something to show besides words! What do we get from Palm? Vaporware OS promises. Not even a blueprint to look at. Make excuses for Palm all you want, but they are SLOWWW!!! And anyone who isn't a Palm apologist knows it!

    I'll be honest, none of us work for Palm so quarterbacking what the company should do from our keyboards is an easy task, but we don't know all we need to know to make these decisions.

    It's now confirmed by the WSJ that these layoffs are part of Rubenstein's reorganization plan and therefore should be welcomed--afterall, everyone on these boards have been howling for "change" for years now, yet as soon as they do, labels of incompetence are thrown around. If the new board members and investors think Ed and team should go, they will be in the best position to decide that and not us.Maybe the top guys wrote themselves huge severance package deals if they get ousted, like many bad CEOs and top executives. What investor wants to pay that out if Palm is in trouble financially? However, that's just speculation on my part.

    But CEOs are hard to get rid of without paying out those packages. It's easier to dump employees since they usually don't have severance contracts.
    Palm's internal changes are just starting... TOO LATE IMO.

    So crazy idea: lets wait and see what happens with the reorganization, see what changes occur and check back in 12 months? Because to expect huge results before then is quite naive. So we have to wait yet ANOTHER year for Palm to get it together? Wonderful!! In the meantime, they're getting their butts kicked!

    And yes Divia, creating a new OS is hard. It took ALP a good 3+ years and they barely have anything to show; Android was bought over 2 years ago by Google and is just seeing the light of day. Where is "Photon" which was supposed to be released in 2008? Welcome your WM 6.1 as astill a better solution than no new Palm OS at all. *fixed*


    * MS took 3 years since WM5 hit the market (more if you count development) to add this somewhat basic feature. Awesome.
    While MSFT is also a bit slow in several ways, we still have gotten UPDATES from them. Keyword, UPDATES. I was able to UPDATE two WM devices to a new OS. AWESOME!!

    My views above in red.

    MSFT does fail on the desktop OS front in the same way Palm fails on the mobile OS front, BUT I honestly have to say I'm impressed with their constant change of their mobile OS. Palm can't get the lead out at all! Garnet is just about the same for quite some time now. And vague references to a new OS are getting old. People are being constantly teased with a non-existent carrot. Palm deserves no breaks and excuses IMO.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    But it's a completely double edged sword. What's better:
    • Sell fewer high-end Treos to a growing market for higher profit
    • Sell more cheaper Centros to a growing market for less profit

    I would think in the long term, brand identity in the marketplace and increased exposure would pay off better than selling fewer and fewer "more expensive" Treos. The Treo 500v is a Palm device in name only but it server to expand their brand deeper into the market. (Actually, the worst scenario would have been if the Centro tanked...)

    I don't think it's unfair to say that most people hold on to cell phones for 2 years and wait for that "carrier discount". If you have a whole new group who enjoys the "Palm experience" and you can get a next-gen product out in those 2 years, that seems like a better plan than just selling 755ps (or some expensive "800p") to a couple of die-hards, no?

    This is true but besides the point. They can't will a new propriety OS into existence and simply licensing out someone else's OS is hardly a long term solution for the company. Just doing an Android device when HTC and everyone else is doing the same wont' save the company.

    So this all begs the question: what should Palm do now, regardless of all the past mistakes? I think this is the path to take, but we'll have to wait to see how it pans out. I know, it's hardly exciting.
    1. Palm can't wait 2 yrs. if they expect to make it globally, though. It's fine for the US since that's mainly what people here do, but the most successful cell phone developers are global, IMO. Palm tried to go global three times(750v, 680, 500v) and it seems it still isn't working too well if they're still in trouble. I hardly ever see foreign posters going "OMG my Treo is GREAT"!! Now maybe they should give up trying to go global and just concentrate on the US market, but even then they have just too much competition to go through due to them dropping the ball one too many times.

    2. So is that why they STILL kiss MSFT's **** for their supposedly slow in development(in your eyes) OS?? 800w ring any bells? Looks like MSFT indeed saved Palm's **** from completely dying, which is really sad IMO. I was never happy about that, but it looks like WM won over the Palm OS, plain and simple. We have to face that fact. Once they sold out, it's hard to now go back and say "Wait folks! The new Palm OS, that we still can't release or show any samples of, is still better!"

    It'll be a tough road ahead for Palm since they are so slow and already sold out to MSFT. What should they do NOW? Pray. Seriously.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Tough decisions? Oh man, pulease Written by someone who has never run a business? Listen. A monkey could run Palm better than Ed Colligan. It wouldnt take a genius to run this company with just the slightest trace of common sense.
    Have you met and/or worked with Ed Colligan before? These comments are very harsh toward someone you don't really know. Ed is not a great CEO, at least not yet. Very few CEOs are. It wasn't that long ago that Ed Zander was considered a great CEO because he "turned" around Motorola. Where is Ed Zander now?

    Ed has been with Palm/Handspring for a long time, and Palm/handspring has gone through some tough times during his tenure. Despite all the ups and downs in the tech sector, Palm is still very much a viable company today. I give Ed a lot of credit for bringing in Jon and recognizing the fact that he couldn't turn around Palm all by himself. Not many CEOs out there are willing to do that.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Palm deserves no breaks and excuses IMO.
    Who's giving Palm a break? What does that even mean in the real world? Is the market giving them a break? The tech media? The stock market? If anything, Palm is getting hammered from everywhere.

    The point here is what Palm should be doing now in reality, not what they should have done in the past--we all know their mistakes. When a company loses money, entering "tight times" and reorganizing--yeah, people loose jobs. (And save the diatribes against Corporate America and their non-existent morality (as if that has a place in "free markets") for another board. American workers will continue to put with and take this corporate behavior so long as they are unorganized and spineless--such is the result of the commodification and alienation of labor. So deal.)

    And what is this nonsense "So we have to wait yet ANOTHER year for Palm to get it together? Wonderful!!". You (and "we") don't have to do anything. We are not some how suffering and are completely unaffected by what happens to Palm. You've moved to another device and another OS. You seriously care what happens to Palm? (I sure don't.)

    So yeah, wait and see what happens to Palm if you're really interested. You know why? We have no choice but to watch what happens from the sidelines.

    And yes, MSFT updates WM more. That is the result of
    • Owning your OS for the last few years
    • A corporation of 79,000 employees/$51B income

    Palm vs. MSFT is literally David vs. Goliath. I think what MSFT does with WM is sort of the least you'd expect from such a massive company, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    1. Palm can't wait 2 yrs. if they expect to make it globally, though....

    2. So is that why they STILL kiss MSFT's **** for their supposedly slow in development(in your eyes) OS??....

    It'll be a tough road ahead for Palm since they are so slow and already sold out to MSFT. What should they do NOW? Pray. Seriously.
    Palm can't wait 2 years. Great. Okay Phone Diva, we see how you'd be an awesome CEO. So what should they do and don't say "pray", I mean realistically.

    And this "kiss MSFT's ****"--how so? Their plan is to use WM for business and enterprise and Palm OS for consumer and small business. You think Palm could effectively compete against MS and RIM on their turf? At least Palm recognized they could get destroyed by MS or deal with them. Now they know WM and it's weaknesses and how to compete against them in the consumer arena, where WM and RIM lack.

    You're all critique and no answers. You live too much in the past, rehashing the old, quarterbacking from the sidelines, ignoring the current situation.

    Face it, for you and a lot of others here: Palm can't do anything right. They're already dead in your eyes, now your just kicking the corpse because you can.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 12/13/2007 at 06:41 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  6. #26  
    I already said what they should do more than once in this thread. Get a WHOLE NEW management team in, one who can actually see where trends are headed and act on them. I'm not living in the past, Palm is. Palm is the one who can't get out of the rut. I think the top guys are rooted in old concepts too much, and don't want to change. No change worked a while ago, but not any more. The market is now moving too quickly.

    Even if they did get a new team in now, they'd basically have to bite the bullet and almost start from scratch, if you ask me! Companies have come back from the almost dead before(Apple, LOL!), so it's possible for Palm to do so too, but ONLY if they get people in there with forward moving plans and not slow ones. Slow isn't working for them! When you see something isn't working, CHANGE IT, don't be stubborn!

    And sleeping with the enemy, so to speak, is never a good sign. It's admitting failure. But let's say their plan WAS to get in bed with MSFT, then somehow bust out a new OS that beats them. Where's the blueprints, projected features, etc.? Nothing so far, but yet another promise after the failed Foleo that they're working on a new OS. Same promise over and over. When you keep promising something but never deliver, what do you end up looking like?

    In the meantime, projected specs for the WM 800w seem to have been posted. So I don't know how, if they keep bedding MSFT like this, they are even going to get out from under Goliath. I think Palm COULD have competed against MSFT. They may not have smashed MSFT, but if they had maintained a decent market share, they could have stayed in the game. Had they NOT let Sony, Kyocera and Samsung leave. And also not sold off their own OS, but continued to develop it. And of course, not gotten in bed with the enemy in the first place. They made others lose confidence in them when they did that.

    So for now, they're stuck with WM keeping them afloat. This is a bad catch 22 IMO. They now have to imply WM was never that good in the first place, if they want to sell their new OS(if it ever appears). But then they risk losing MSFT as a partner and if the new OS fails, that's the end. MSFT may say, "you reaped all the benefits of our profitable OS and now you're going to try dissing us after making all that money off us". Palm may end up looking like hypocrites.

    And I'm going to have to take offense to this: And what is this nonsense "So we have to wait yet ANOTHER year for Palm to get it together? Wonderful!!" You (and "we") don't have to do anything. We are not some how suffering and are completely unaffected by what happens to Palm. You've moved to another device and another OS. You seriously care what happens to Palm?

    My first two PDAs were Palms and I would not like to see them go entirely. In fact, before Palm OS got stale, I refused to even use anything else. Obviously I won't die or anything if Palm fails entirely but I don't like to see businesses I was happy with die. I'm just mainly disappointed in Palm and that's why I'm so critical. They let users down for the most part. When Handspring first came out with their hot PDAs, I thought they were innovators. So what happened?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    But it's a completely double edged sword. What's better:
    • Sell fewer high-end Treos to a growing market for higher profit
    • Sell more cheaper Centros to a growing market for less profit

    I would think in the long term, brand identity in the marketplace and increased exposure would pay off better than selling fewer and fewer "more expensive" Treos. The Treo 500v is a Palm device in name only but it server to expand their brand deeper into the market. (Actually, the worst scenario would have been if the Centro tanked...)...
    Oh, the point wasn't necessarily that choosing #2, andproducing the Centro was/is a mistake or a bad choice... while the jury is somewhat out on this, I certainly wouldn't say that the Centro, IN AND OF ITSELF, was a bad decision... indeed Palm *had* (IMHO) to go that route, given the competition -- to make a more up-to-date form factor at a lower price point. No, the point was rather...
    ...HIGHER-than-expected shipments of its low-priced Palm Centro smart phone, which cut into profit margins...
    ... how could it have been UNEXPECTED that the Centro's sales would do so well and in the process cut into margins? Why exactly was Palm's mgmt expecting any other outcome *but* that ? Did they *really* think that Centro sales would simply add on to a stable base of continued Treo sales ?

    My point was that time and time again, Palm doesn't seem to know what to expect... can't get a proper read on the market and its trends... and, worse, can't PLAN adequately for what is coming ahead.

    They should have *known* that the Centro would cut into their margins. They should have been prepared for it and made plans that would take that into account. The most obvious thing they could have done was to offer more new products than just the Centro. Or they could have tried much harder to flood the market with the Centro instead of just being locked into Sprint in the USA. There are probably dozens of different strategies and efforts they could have taken but they always seem to be the last to see what's coming up ahead...

    From what I can tell both the Touch and the Voyager are doing very well. I've said it before, but really the whole touch screen-dominated device should have been Palm's market... it *used* to be... If they were going to do the Centro, they should have also done at least one other major new and innovative device concurrently to get their numbers up since the margins were going to shrink. The fact that they don't know what to expect and don't work proactively and instead are just reactive... never going be able to pull out of their predicament...
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    [COLOR="Navy"]I already said what they should do more than once in this thread. Get a WHOLE NEW management team in, one who can actually see where trends are headed and act on them. I'm not living in the past, Palm is. Palm is the one who can't get out of the rut. I think the top guys are rooted in old concepts too much, and don't want to change. No change worked a while ago, but not any more. The market is now moving too quickly.

    Even if they did get a new team in now, they'd basically have to bite the bullet and almost start from scratch.....

    So for now, they're stuck with WM keeping them afloat. This is a bad catch 22 IMO. They now have to imply WM was never that good in the first place, if they want to sell their new OS(if it ever appears). But then they risk losing MSFT as a partner and if the new OS fails, that's the end. MSFT may say, "you reaped all the benefits of our profitable OS and now you're going to try dissing us after making all that money off us". Palm may end up looking like hypocrites
    Like I said: the changes at Palm are just starting. They may yet get a whole new management team--they already have new blood throwing their weight around, making changes.

    And they are starting from scratch. Once again: we'll just have to wait and see what comes of it.

    You are quite off about MSFT and Palm btw. I'm not sure how much clearer on this I can be: Palm does not want to compete in Enterprise, but consumer and small business. They will not compete with MSFT in the future.

    Read their slides for their blueprint for PalmOS II and WM in the future--this can't be any clearer on what their plans are.
    http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12956

    neurocutie: gotcha and see what you mean--agreed.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  9. #29  
    You don't keep the same people at the top to start from scratch, unless the people at the top are truly committed to change. Will they be, or will they be stubborn STILL? If it's the same old same old even after getting rid of "excess" employees or whatever, where does that get you? You're right though, I will have to wait. But there is now so much choice out there, the bad thing is 2008 looks like a do or die year for Palm, and we're almost at the finish line. I wonder if they'll become a takeover target.

    Consumer and small business? WM also competes in the same arena. That's what WM Standard is for(Dash, Shadow, etc.). Even though Palm uses what is now called WM Professional, I still see how a conflict could arise. How are they going to push their own OS as better, since MSFT is a partner? Do you think it will be overlooked that they offer phones with WM, yet will have to diss WM(even if it is the standard version for consumers and small business) somehow in order to get their own OS out there? I don't know. I think they're going to have to be very subtle about it or something.

    What do you think, Malatesta? How would YOU sell your product if your partner makes a similar product, without implying yours is better? Would the partner just not care? MSFT probably has thick skin, but still I wonder.

    Then Palm has to worry about Apple and it's new mobile OS supposedly allowing SDK.
    If that does happen, you know well how many praise Apple even if they're late to the table, for some reason. Another hurdle to get over, because even Apple got the jump on Palm releasing a new mobile OS(sort of). And you know the next version will have what the first one missed. If they release that one before Palm get it's out, maybe on that 3G phone or even as an update on the old ones....
    You can only hope there's a delay on Apple's part also.

    Yes, I'm quite pessimistic about Palm's future. Maybe I shouldn't be but it looks like they have so much ground to make up for and so much competition to jump over, competition that actually produced results. Will they ever reclaim their spot?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    You don't keep the same people at the top to start from scratch, unless the people at the top are truly committed to change. Will they be, or will they be stubborn STILL?Even though Palm uses what is now called WM Professional, I still see how a conflict could arise. How are they going to push their own OS as better, since MSFT is a partner? Do you think it will be overlooked that they offer phones with WM, yet will have to diss WM(even if it is the standard version for consumers and small business) somehow in order to get their own OS out there? I don't know. I think they're going to have to be very subtle about it or something.

    What do you think, Malatesta? How would YOU sell your product if your partner makes a similar product, without implying yours is better? Would the partner just not care? MSFT probably has thick skin, but still I wonder.
    C'mon Diva, don't be so naive. HTC just announced they are releasing multiple devices running Android and they are MSFT largest OEM. You act like MS is oblivious to Palm's future. If they can take HTC selling Android devices, which is much, much bigger deal, they can certainly "deal" with Palm and their OS.

    Moto has their own linux in the works in addition to their new WM lineup for Q2 2008 (which the hardware is being outsourced for). Everyone is diversifying their lineup. Why not? It's called letting the market decide.

    What will MSFT think...? Who cares! They'll sell a license to anyone, even Apple. What are they going to do to Palm--not let them buy a license for the OS? Write a mean email to Ed? Please.

    This is 100% a non-issue and you're the only one concerned by it.

    As to your comments about Palm and changing, Ed Hardy does a good job of summarizing what is happening i.e. the reality. I know it's not good enough for you though...
    Jon Rubinstein is the new head of Palm's product development efforts. He's only been on the job for a few months, but he's already remaking the company into form he believes will make it a serious competitor again.

    Rubinstein is no stranger to creating successful mobile devices. When he was in charge of hardware engineering at Apple, the company came up with iMac and the iBook, and he was instrumental in the creation of the iPod.
    ....
    According to the Wall Street Journal, since he joined Palm earlier this year, Rubinstein has re-organized the company's development efforts, with teams focused on individual projects, each with a director that is responsible for the product from beginning to end.

    He's also forced the company to re-think its product roadmap, with some items being dropped, most notably the Foleo. Also dropped have been some of Palm's employees, like Michael Farese, the former VP of engineering...
    "Jon Rubinstein Working Hard to Turn Palm Around"-Brighthand 12/13/07

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  11. #31  
    So when did I ever insert subtle insults toward you? You've done that several times, in this thread and another!

    I don't see the need for you to roll your eyes just because I don't share your "bright future" projection for Palm. Articles like THIS worry me, due to all that could happen in 2008:

    http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13448

    What will MSFT think...? Who cares! They'll sell a license to anyone, even Apple. What are they going to do to Palm--not let them buy a license for the OS? Write a mean email to Ed? Please. Naive or not, I still think attempting to compete against your established rich and powerful partner who helped bail you out may or may not be a good idea. I was thinking more along the lines of, perhaps they MAY try to claim the conflict is detrimental to their partnership, since the new OS could undermine WM Palm sales. Palm isn't like HTC, a true gold mine for MSFT. HTC makes MSFT's WM more widespread, popular, and more profitable. People are still not using WM Treos on a large basis, at least worldwide. MSFT may not say too much to their gold mine HTC, but Palm is another story. I don't know what MSFT'll do or say for sure, obviously.

    I have an acquaintance who works for MSFT, maybe I'll ask him what he thinks. Although I mentioned Ed Colligan to him once and he didn't even know who he was and had an almost cold reception to the name Palm, LOL! He uses HTC only devices.

    As for HTC and Android, when is Android coming out for sure? Maybe MSFT didn't say anything yet because it's not really here. And of course, just because they never said anything publicly doesn't mean they have no thoughts on the matter.


    This is 100% a non-issue and you're the only one concerned by it.

    And how do you know that I'M the only person on the planet wondering about a possible conflict? There are only 5 or 6 posters period in this thread and just because none of the others have mentioned it, doesn't make it a concensus.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome View Post
    Have you met and/or worked with Ed Colligan before? These comments are very harsh toward someone you don't really know.
    I know Ed. He is just as arrogant and unwilling to listen to input now as he was in the early days of Handspring.

    Ed has been with Palm/Handspring for a long time, and Palm/handspring has gone through some tough times during his tenure. Despite all the ups and downs in the tech sector, Palm is still very much a viable company today. I give Ed a lot of credit for bringing in Jon and recognizing the fact that he couldn't turn around Palm all by himself. Not many CEOs out there are willing to do that.
    You think Ed brought in Jon and the rest of Elevation because he thought it was a great idea?

    Not a chance. The board overrode him on this one.

    Rubinstein is very, very good. VERY good. But Palm is too far gone.

    None of the problems that Palm is facing are new to this management team. Do your research.

    - Strange Engine
  13. #33  
    I'd like to ask a question. Is it because Linux is an open source platform that MSFT cannot do or say anything about it's partners venturing into it?

    Yes, I'm still wondering just how much power MSFT has over it's partners, so no insults please, LOL!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post

    This is true but besides the point. They can't will a new propriety OS into existence and simply licensing out someone else's OS is hardly a long term solution for the company. Just doing an Android device when HTC and everyone else is doing the same wont' save the company.
    Actually, its exactly the point. If they can't produce a wow product in the next 18-24 months they won't have enough money to do anything to recapture their market position. And if they couldn't produce the new wow by now, what confidence does anyone have that they will be able to do it two years from now? This is the point: with no new product with high margins that means less money, less money means less R&D.

    The primarily reason to lay off employees when you can't pay for them during financially lean times. And the ones left will start to wonder about their jobs--and the smartest ones--the ones with the most talent tend to take other offers when faced with job instability. Honestly I believe most of Palm's talent left a while ago. That's the reason for the delays, bugs, etc.

    The problem many people have looking at Palm is that they think this is all about a new OS. It's not. Just because Palm wants to put out a linux OS does not mean it is the solution to all problems. Form factor, usuability, power, etc. are also in the mix. And you cannot avoid the "wow" factor. Without the wow factor you can have a brick which won't sell. And I don't think the Centro has the wow factor--the reason for all the sales is that people can get it for free so where they would normally have gotten a flip phone they got this instead. But unless Palm is looking to be a low budget provider of phones they have to do something else instead. And they don't have that something else and don't appear to be making any progress either.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by beachtrader View Post
    Actually, its exactly the point. If they can't produce a wow product in the next 18-24 months they won't have enough money to do anything to recapture their market position....
    That's why developing their own successful OS is so important.
    • If they fail to "wow" with the new OS, they loose.
    • If they give up now on a new OS and just license out Android, they loose.

    Their only shot is to come out with a new, stable, impressive OS--regardless of who is in management. They cannot though, just use Android and WM since they don't actually make hardware, they'd get swallowed in the market as a redundant company.

    Even if this were not the case, if they were drop everything now and support Android, it would set them back even further (HTC has been working with Google for more than 2 years already)--no way could they catch up. Then they'd have to support WM, Android and think about their OS which would be a direct competitor in many ways with Android.

    I just don't see their options here: make a new OS, put all your chips in the basket and hope it works out. Nothing else will work. Devices take about 18 months from conception to roll-out (3 months for FCC, 3-6 months for carrier approval, design, testing, manufacturing, etc.). The Centro has been planned since 2006 so you can bet that they already have their next-gen phones in design stages for late 2008.

    I'm not making predictions either way about Palm's future--not enough info. Either way, the market will march on, so I'm ultimately not concerned with any company's success or failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I don't see the need for you to roll your eyes just because I don't share your "bright future" projection for Palm.
    Show the post where I mention anything about a "bright future" for Palm. Never made one. So please don't attribute false positions to me. I frankly don't care if Palm succeeds or not and at this point, I think it can go any which way. All I know is I see a company struggling and starting to make changes, but as previously mentioned: it is way too early to see if those changes are good and will be productive--lets wait 12 months.

    The rolly-eyes are part of TC's emoticons. I don't consider them an insult, but if they are, then they are thousands of posts on TC of people insulting each other
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Naive or not, I still think attempting to compete against your established rich and powerful partner who helped bail you out may or may not be a good idea...
    They are not competing against MS in enterprise, for the thousandth time. MS knows it, Palm knows it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I have an acquaintance who works for MSFT, maybe I'll ask him what he thinks. Although I mentioned Ed Colligan to him once and he didn't even know who he was and had an almost cold reception to the name Palm, LOL! He uses HTC only devices.
    Ask him who Peter Chou is too. MSFT employees are not known to be cosmopolitan.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    As for HTC and Android, when is Android coming out for sure? Maybe MSFT didn't say anything yet because it's not really here. And of course, just because they never said anything publicly doesn't mean they have no thoughts on the matter.
    Mid 2008.

    MSFT did say something: they laughed it off and said it was an OS on paper. They cannot say anything about what their partners do.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva
    ;And how do you know that I'M the only person on the planet wondering about a possible conflict? There are only 5 or 6 posters period in this thread and just because none of the others have mentioned it, doesn't make it a concensus.
    It was in references to the trade press and tech analysts, not posters at TC. Find any reference about Palm's future discussing a potential rivalry with MSFT in enterprise--it's all RIM vs MSFT, not Palm.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 12/14/2007 at 09:47 AM.

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  16.    #36  
    " Have you ever met Ed Colligan before? These comments are very harsh toward someone you don't really know. Ed is not a great CEO, at least not yet. Very few CEOs are. It wasn't that long ago that Ed Zander was considered a great CEO because he "turned" around Motorola. Where is Ed Zander now?

    Ed has been with Palm/Handspring for a long time, and Palm/handspring has gone through some tough times during his tenure. Despite all the ups and downs in the tech sector, Palm is still very much a viable company today. I give Ed a lot of credit for bringing in Jon and recognizing the fact that he couldn't turn around Palm all by himself. Not many CEOs out there are willing to do that. "

    - ROME

    See I just view this as spin, Rome. Honestly. It's like attempting to defend people who's incompetence is simply indefensible.

    I don't give Ed credit just because he has been through some tough times with palm. Its most likely BECAUSE of Ed that palm went through those tough times, Rome.

    Meeting Ed has nothing to do with judging his performance with this company. Whether or not I've ever met him is completely irrelevant here.

    A great ceo is one who can assess problems within his company in a timely manner, and in doing so, changes the company's status as a lagging dog flailing in the market space to a leading competitor with its peers.

    Palm has been a loser for many years now, Rome. We're not just talking about a few errant rough patches here and there. They have been on a steady, downward trend and have been stubborn in their business approach.

    Stubbornly sticking with an obvious faulty, losing strategy without taking advice until the company is on the brink here does NOT a great ceo make. He should have been removed YEARS ago due to the demonstrated incompetence in handling a product with the potential the treo had.

    I don't care if that is harsh. That's just the way it is. You don't keep a ceo in place just because you feel bad for the guy or like him. If they can't get it job done, they're gone
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    They are not competing against MS in enterprise, for the thousandth time. MS knows it, Palm knows it. Read below, please.

    Ask him who Peter Chou is too. MSFT employees are not known to be cosmopolitan.

    Mid 2008.

    MSFT did say something: they laughed it off and said it was an OS on paper. I forgot I did see that Ballmer comment posted on Engadget. They cannot say anything about what their partners do.

    It was in references to the trade press and tech analysts, not posters at TC. Find any reference about Palm's future discussing a potential rivalry with MSFT in enterprise--it's all RIM vs MSFT, not Palm. I never really said enterprise specifically, I was thinking of WM as a whole. But you did say consumer and small business. They may not compete with the Professional version, but since Standard has already been marketed to consumers on several devices, this is what they're up against. I saw a post from a consumer who bought a Blackjack II then was unable to use it simply, so he said. I'd think those type of people would be the new Palm OS's targets. Also Dash and Shadow people.
    My thoughts in red.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #38  
    FWIW--Barron's weighs in...
    Palm, RIM Left to Their Own Devices 12/14/07

    Morgan Keegan

    PALM AND RESEARCH IN MOTION will report quarterly results next week, with Palm reporting on Dec. 18, after the close, and RIM reporting on Dec. 20, after the close.

    In terms of Palm, the company issued revised second-quarter 2008 guidance on Dec. 6, indicating that revenue would be in the $345 million-to-$350 million range, down from the prior range from $370 million to $380 million, and that earnings per share would be in the negative eight cents-to-negative 10 cents range, versus our prior expectation of one cent. For the full year, we are $92.5 million above the street revenue estimate of $1.44 billion, and two cents above the street EPS estimate of $0.00.
    .......

    For the full year fiscal 2008, we are $61.5 million below the consensus street revenue estimate of $5.87 billion, and two cents below the consensus GAAP EPS of $2.17.

    For Palm, the Centro [smartphone] is selling very well, though the company needs a Treo product refresh; we expect sequentially increased third-quarter guidance with a return to profitability.

    Volatility in Palm shares is typically driven by guidance, and given the company's pre-release, this will clearly be the focus of the second-quarter earnings call.

    Smartphone sell-through will be key, as it was not given in the pre-release. Anything higher than 750,000 for second-quarter 2008 is likely a positive, as it would indicate that year-over-year sell-through growth remains reasonably strong.

    Our channel checks pointed to very strong demand at Sprint (Centro-driven), very weak demand at AT&T (need a refresh) and weakening demand at Verizon Wireless [a joint venture of Verizon Communications and Vodafone] as customers hold off for the [Palm Treo] 755p.

    If Palm can get the 755p launched at Verizon, expand Centro distribution and launch an updated Treo, year-over-year sell-through trends should only improve as the year progresses.

    Palm snuck in another $10 million restructuring into its pre-release, and we are hearing rumors of substantial layoffs at Palm in the very near term. This should improve profitability.

    We expect Palm will outline a plan for a near-term return to profitability through improved revenues and a lower cost structure.

    Overall, with Centro demand very strong, the 755p likely to ship at Verizon, and significant cost cutting, we expect February guidance should be significantly better than November results.

    We also believe it is likely that the Centro will expand beyond Sprint, and that new Treos with [Microsoft] Windows Mobile 6 and WiFi should also launch in the coming quarters, creating a reasonable upgrade cycle for Palm's embedded base.

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  19. #39  
    Well it's good to know Centro is doing well! Even though it did cut into Treo profits.


    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=157873

    They say 755p will finally be out on Verizon. Also good news!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by strangeengine View Post
    I know Ed. He is just as arrogant and unwilling to listen to input now as he was in the early days of Handspring.



    You think Ed brought in Jon and the rest of Elevation because he thought it was a great idea?

    Not a chance. The board overrode him on this one.

    Rubinstein is very, very good. VERY good. But Palm is too far gone.

    None of the problems that Palm is facing are new to this management team. Do your research.

    - Strange Engine
    First, welcome to Treocentral. Second, I guess I can safely assume that you are not an Ed Colligan fan.

    Perhaps you have a different view of Ed from mine, but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

    I actually did my research and here is what I have: From WSJ, 12/14/07

    >>>"I knew I couldn't turn the company around by myself," says Mr. Colligan, 46, who has been Palm's CEO since 2004. "I needed a partner on the tech front who could change the dynamics of our development team."

    So he hired Mr. Rubinstein. The onetime Hewlett-Packard Co. engineer worked with Apple CEO and co-founder Steve Jobs at Mr. Jobs's former company NeXT Computer Inc. in the 1990s. When Mr. Jobs returned to Apple in 1997, Mr. Rubinstein became Apple's head of hardware engineering. Under his watch, Apple created the iMac and the iBook. In 2001, Apple unveiled the iPod, the hit music player that Mr. Rubinstein is credited with helping to invent. Sometimes called the "Podfather," he became Apple's first head of its iPod division.<<<

    Of course, we can dispute how accurate the WSJ story is. Perhaps it is just a spin that Palm is putting on to save Colligan's face.

    Nevertheless, I showed you my research. Where is yours?
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