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  1. #61  
    I've been in the "Palm Is Dead" camp for a while now. Failure to innovate + crappy products = I'm using a Blackberry. No resets. Who'd of thought? But maybe - just MAYbe - Plam has a chance. Especially if they find another manufacturer to put the Palm OS on their phones. How about Motorola using it on the Q? Sounds farfetched to me too, but unless it's marketing bs and just stock picture stuff, it could be happening. Check out The Boy Genius Report.
  2. ediamond's Avatar
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    #62  
    I think Palm is not long for the world. They have failed to make an impact in the marketplace since the Treo 650 and they are plagued with a lack of vision and a lack of direction for some time. Palm OS is terribly aged, Palm still cannot create a thin smartphone with decent battery life (while virtually everyone else has) after all this time. Their OS development appears to be rudderless, with Cobalt, the spinoff of PalmSource, and the Foleo all debacles in the wireless space.

    This is not the same company that innovated the original Pilot 1000/5000. Or on second thought maybe it is. At that time, you had your choice of Newton, the HP95 and that was pretty much it for handheld computing. Today, it is a saturated market. HTC/Windows Mobile, RIM, SonyEriccsson, LG, Samsung Apple and Nokia are all running circles around Palm in terms of speed to market, innovation, and delivering products that people want. Where is the Palm with a high res camera? Where is the PMP palm? Where is the thin Palm?

    Based on Palm's behavior, I am just not confident that they are going to turn their ship 180 degrees in time to save themselves. Apple nearly went the same way, but was able to turn themselves around with a radical, bold leader who was completely committed to the success of the company. I don't see that kind of leadership at the helm of Palm.

    Palm will appeal to those individuals and organizations that already have a sizable investment in Palm software and infrastructure, but they will bleed users (they already are) to other platforms over time. Without a major innovation, a game-changing product that truly causes a shift in thinking around cellphones (and the foleo ain't it, folks), perfectly executed, Palm will languish, self-destruct, or be purchased by one of their competitors for their talent.

    I realize that this isn't what we want to hear, but it is reality. Business is a hard world to live in.
  3. #63  
    Why are you obsessed with "thin" palms? I don't want thin. The Centro is fine.

    High res camera? I still wouldn't use it.

    Palm excels in blending its software to its hardware. Google OS is just a vision right now with several manufacturers signed on. Look at cnet's wishlist for what they want in the new OS. Google docs, ability to tether, do searches, etc. That's already here.

    All palm needs in their new OS is the ability to go widescreen, use touch, and have a full browser as well as multitask a bit. I still see them doing two versions, one with and one without keyboard. It will have google apps. And its own apps.

    For all your competitors you boast being innovators they've failed (so far) to deliver anything superior to the Centro to market. That's a hell of a statement as to how good the Palm OS was and still is.

    Where palm has failed is wasting time. 18 more months is a long time. The foleo did set them back since well..there's nothing to show for it. We'll see if they have a vision soon enough on what the next Treo should be.
  4. ediamond's Avatar
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Why are you obsessed with "thin" palms? I don't want thin. The Centro is fine.
    You are in the minority. I'm not obsessed with thin, but I recognize that it is good to have a smartphone that can fit in one's pocket without requiring a holster or a loose fit pair of jeans. I suppose if you find that idea distasteful you could always go back to the DynaTAC 8000.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    High res camera? I still wouldn't use it.
    Again, the market has spoken and people want useable cameras. If Palm is going to put a camera in the Treo, is it too much to ask that it be a decent one? What you are essentially saying here is "I like crappy." Which is fine. But the rest of us want good.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Palm excels in blending its software to its hardware. Google OS is just a vision right now with several manufacturers signed on. Look at cnet's wishlist for what they want in the new OS. Google docs, ability to tether, do searches, etc. That's already here.
    I remember when all of that was said about the iPhone, and the iPhone did serious damage to the Palm user base. According to an NPD study, iPhone adopters were 10 times more likely to have previously used a Treo. If Palm's hardware/software blending prowess was so great, I doubt we would have seen the mass defections we did with the iPhone. Android phones will be upon us soon enough, and Palm will STILL be trying to finds it's posterior with both hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    All palm needs in their new OS is the ability to go widescreen, use touch, and have a full browser as well as multitask a bit. I still see them doing two versions, one with and one without keyboard. It will have google apps. And its own apps.
    And have a better form factor, flawless sync, better battery life, more flexible email client, better camera, larger screen, etc. etc. Palm's needed this stuff for more than 5 years. The fact that they are still ignoring their market even as they bleed users makes me fear for their long-term viability. Palm was once terribly innovative. The insights they had on the Treo were good ones (people would rather use a tiny keyboard than graffiti). But that was a long time ago. They've had the opportunity to deliver multiple times. they could have taken on RIM, and WM a long time ago. Instead it is now in catch up mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    For all your competitors you boast being innovators they've failed (so far) to deliver anything superior to the Centro to market. That's a hell of a statement as to how good the Palm OS was and still is.e.
    I disagree. RIM has something like 80% market-share in corporate environments. In mobile-crazy Europe and Asia, Palm is barely a blip on the radar compared to SonyEricsson or Nokia. Have you ever used an S60 phone? It is much more stable and is as usable as POS. Nokia has a whole range of products that outshine Palm in nearly every category. Ever type on an E61i? Much better keyboard than Palm's. The N95 blows Palm away in every category except QWERTY and battery life. And the iPhone? For ease of use, media playback and sync, there is no comparison. I was tired of having to tweak my palm just to get a day's battery life out of it I was tired of an operating system creaking under its own weight. The last Palm I purchased was the 680. Sure, they got rid of the antenna (finally) but making the case thinner by reducing battery capacity? You call that innovation? Please. After months of screwing around trying to get my phone to work for more than a day without crashing or without my having to carry around extra batteries and chargers, I gave up and switched to E61i. And now to iPhone, and the Palm is but a distant memory.

    Palm is alive thanks to the CDMA market which is limited to carrier-supplied phones. For a long time Palm was the only choice one had for a smartphone if one used a Macintosh, but that is no longer true today thanks to the iPhone. Palm is like one of those guys who chain smokes, drinks and snorts coke to "get through the day." Guys like that drop dead and no one is surprised. Palm has a very limited window of life left. They may be able to innovate their way out of their predicament (I hope they do) but even if they manage it, their competitors are moving too.
  5. #65  
    The centro is more pocketable than the iphone. The camera is sufficient.

    The iphone did some damage to every competitor, but its entrance into the market is good in that it raised awareness of what's out there.

    Palm's Centro is still superior to anything out there. Right now. And cheaper to boot.

    If you are using an iphone and are happy, then you probably don't get it. All those criticisms you gave palm for email, form factor, battery, etc apply to the iphone even more. It's email is terribly limited. It offers no battery replacement. It's form factor is much worse..thin doesn't mean much given its width and height. Itunes is limited. A crappy virtual keyboard. Sure the iphone is easy to use since it offers so little. You call this innovation? You are settling for a nicer screen and browser. That's it. Palm makes the iphone look like a stupid phone in so many other ways though and remains the simplest to use compared to WM and others.
  6. json's Avatar
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Palm's Centro is still superior to anything out there. Right now. And cheaper to boot.
    i used to sell what your smokin
  7. #67  
    Well, kindly tell what you're using and why you think otherwise You see that's the thing. People whine about palm, but there isn't a damn thing out there without flaws or that compares overall to the Centro.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    The centro is more pocketable than the iphone. The camera is sufficient.

    The iphone did some damage to every competitor, but its entrance into the market is good in that it raised awareness of what's out there.

    Palm's Centro is still superior to anything out there. Right now. And cheaper to boot..
    I have to agree with cardfan here.

    Ediamond, the Centro is a very pocketable device, the camera is the best yet for any Palm phone, BT works very well, surprisingly good battery life and at $99 (plus if you can snag a Sero plan) is one of the best values for smartphone today. Cracking that $99 barrier for a robust smartphone w/ a touchscreen is a significant step for the industry.

    I'm not sure how you can criticize Palm for not doing anything when, by all accounts and user feedback here at TC, they just released one of their best phones to date. Sure, they still need a newer OS and to do more but this is a positive step forward that its being ignored by you.

    And I say all of this as a fairly dedicated WM user.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  9. json's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Well, kindly tell what you're using and why you think otherwise You see that's the thing. People whine about palm, but there isn't a damn thing out there without flaws or that compares overall to the Centro.

    You said it yourself, there isn't anything without flaws. I'm not going to bother getting into another debate about whats better (even though my 700p is) because everyone has preferences...such as screen size, processor speed, keyboard space blah blah blah. From my POV the problem people have with palm as well as mine is that palm is just refusing to keep up with the competition. Palm doesn't have to make a iphone killer but if they want to stay relevant they damn well better keep up with current specs and tech...like... BT 2.0 and yes wifi ohhh yea and better camera's. Palm released 3 or 4 phones this year and all that has changed in them since the 650 has been size and memory storage size.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    If you are using an iphone and are happy, then you probably don't get it. All those criticisms you gave palm for email, form factor, battery, etc apply to the iphone even more. It's email is terribly limited. It offers no battery replacement. It's form factor is much worse..thin doesn't mean much given its width and height. Itunes is limited. A crappy virtual keyboard. Sure the iphone is easy to use since it offers so little. You call this innovation? You are settling for a nicer screen and browser. That's it. Palm makes the iphone look like a stupid phone in so many other ways though and remains the simplest to use compared to WM and others.
    I beg to differ. I've been using the iPhone and love it, and I do think "I get it." We may just disagree on some specifics (I've used Treos on a daily basis almost exclusively since the Treo 300):

    - Form factor-- love the iPhone form factor, fits into my pocket far less obtrusively than the Treo, and size of screen is maximized which I find very useful for all non-phone operations

    - Email-- "terribly limited" is a bit of an exaggeration. Easy to read and spend time using, attachment viewing is quick and flexible (e.g., zooming), IMAP syncs multiple folders easily. Yes, it needs some more features, but all in all, I have no desire to use a Treo for email if I have the iPhone...and I do a lot of email.

    - "Virtual crappy keyboard" Again, a tad overstated. I type at least as fast on the iPhone (it took a couple of weeks to get this fast) and I find it less fatiguing than the Treo's keyboard.

    - Removing battery-- I hope not to have to do that very often, if it's once a year (or less frequent), while not optimal, is a minor hassle in the big picture.

    Personally, I challenge you to use an iPhone exclusively for several weeks and then tell me you think it's just a matter of improved screen and browsing. While I think it's still an "evolutionary device" in that it builds on PDA-style phones made by others, it clearly pushes the envelope in new and important ways. And if you try out some of the 3rd party apps that people are making (without an SDK even out yet) you can see where this is going... and going fast. Between the iPhone and the Google mobile OS (SDK out today), I think the whole wireless/computing/phone world is transforming very quickly in very exciting ways, and as far as I can tell, Palm just isn't there. And an inexpensive Treo just isn't going to save them...
    Psion 3a > Palm Vx w/ Omnisky > Blackberry 850 > Treo 300 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700P > Apple iPhone
  11. #71  
    I'd say their specs are sort of...well..ahead already..give or take a few.

    A 320 by 320 screen has been out for years now with the Treos. How many competitors can trump that today? Expanding that size of the screen is wanted by many. But i've seen quite a few get excited to see a smaller device. I don't think you can get the widescreen and the treo keyboard at the same time. It won't happen unless palm creates a different version altogether.

    How many can stream audio (ptunes) and video (kinoma, others)? But since its hardware specs you speak of, how many offer the easy one handed use that palm offers? Processor speed? I tried a Mogul one time and it was very slow compared to my then 700p. The Centro is even faster (but maybe that's just me and i will say the iphone is fast in doing what it does except for edge limited apps). Keyboard space? Treo set the standard there IMO and continues to do so in creating an even smaller keyboard that is still quite usable (centro).

    The camera isn't a huge feature of the palm and isn't in most smartphones..but it fills its purpose i think in taking that quick pic and emailing it or whatever. You are correct though..each person has different priorities. For me, i take a camera to take shots i want to look good.

    BT 2.0? Forgive me, but i don't hardly use the BT in it now. I never got into the BT headset stuff even after trying it. I realize it's a popular thing, but i thought the BT in the Centro worked fine for the headsets.

    Wifi has always been missing. But i'm not sure what your advantage is with it. I use my Treo/centro when i'm out..not when i'm at home or work which has wireless. But if i'm at either of those places, i'll use the laptop or desktop. EVDO offers sufficient speed and i'm sure that speed will only increase in the future. Ability to do VOIP i just don't get since..well..it's a phone to start with.

    So what i see is a lot of palm fans are just tired of seeing the same thing. It's something software companies are well aware of..sometimes even mixing up the graphics just to keep fresh. I do get that point and i think palm does as well...finally. They know its past time to dump the old look next time around and reinvent itself (at least i think they do..lol).
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by MobileGuy View Post
    I beg to differ. I've been using the iPhone and love it, and I do think "I get it." We may just disagree on some specifics (I've used Treos on a daily basis almost exclusively since the Treo 300):

    - Form factor-- love the iPhone form factor, fits into my pocket far less obtrusively than the Treo, and size of screen is maximized which I find very useful for all non-phone operations

    - Email-- "terribly limited" is a bit of an exaggeration. Easy to read and spend time using, attachment viewing is quick and flexible (e.g., zooming), IMAP syncs multiple folders easily. Yes, it needs some more features, but all in all, I have no desire to use a Treo for email if I have the iPhone...and I do a lot of email.

    - "Virtual crappy keyboard" Again, a tad overstated. I type at least as fast on the iPhone (it took a couple of weeks to get this fast) and I find it less fatiguing than the Treo's keyboard.

    - Removing battery-- I hope not to have to do that very often, if it's once a year (or less frequent), while not optimal, is a minor hassle in the big picture.

    Personally, I challenge you to use an iPhone exclusively for several weeks and then tell me you think it's just a matter of improved screen and browsing. While I think it's still an "evolutionary device" in that it builds on PDA-style phones made by others, it clearly pushes the envelope in new and important ways. And if you try out some of the 3rd party apps that people are making (without an SDK even out yet) you can see where this is going... and going fast. Between the iPhone and the Google mobile OS (SDK out today), I think the whole wireless/computing/phone world is transforming very quickly in very exciting ways, and as far as I can tell, Palm just isn't there. And an inexpensive Treo just isn't going to save them...
    I did try an iphone for about 30 days. Too much work. Too much swiping, zooming in and out, etc. Give that iphone a navigation button at bottom please. If you have lots of email, you'll be doing lots more swiping just to delete it.

    I never got the keyboard down..sorry.

    Battery wasn't an issue with me although the thought of having to send in a device to get it replaced is well...not terribly evolutionary.

    The form factor. I really didn't care for it. Too thin for me. I'm not sure why this is so appealing. Can't fight the peer pressure i guess on this one..lol

    But still, in just my daily use of the iphone, it was a hassle. Tap, tap, tap, swipe, pinch, using two hands. I'll grant you the screen and browser..beautifully done. It's why i bought one. But even browsing, it's a swipe fest. On the Centro, most what i browse fits to screen and you scroll down.

    No games to waste time on when out and about and you're looking to do so. What the iphone going to offer? Finger games? You need a stylus and buttons. If you want to stream internet radio or see something other than youtube? Sorry..outta luck on the iphone. Record voice, phone calls, video? Sorry, no can do. Tether a laptop? Not on the iphone. Watch tv via slingbox? Not on the iphone.

    You got that nice screen with the iphone, but very little to do with it other than browse or watch video or have swipe fests with.
  13. #73  
    http://code.google.com/android/

    I gotta say though after seeing more stuff on the google sdk...Palm's chances look pretty slim to me. The google OS will be a monster and could have much more impact in the future than the iphone ever did.

    We're all going to benefit here no matter what your desired features are in a smartphone.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    http://code.google.com/android/

    I gotta say though after seeing more stuff on the google sdk...Palm's chances look pretty slim to me. The google OS will be a monster and could have much more impact in the future than the iphone ever did.

    We're all going to benefit here no matter what your desired features are in a smartphone.
    Yeah, it looks impressive. (I've never seen Quake played on a cell phone before). --Where's the poster who said all Google did was create a search engine and that's no big deal?--

    I honestly can say this has tremendous potential. I bet Apple is worried about this as well.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I did try an iphone for about 30 days. Too much work. Too much swiping, zooming in and out, etc. Give that iphone a navigation button at bottom please. If you have lots of email, you'll be doing lots more swiping just to delete it.

    I never got the keyboard down..sorry.

    Battery wasn't an issue with me although the thought of having to send in a device to get it replaced is well...not terribly evolutionary.

    The form factor. I really didn't care for it. Too thin for me. I'm not sure why this is so appealing. Can't fight the peer pressure i guess on this one..lol

    But still, in just my daily use of the iphone, it was a hassle. Tap, tap, tap, swipe, pinch, using two hands. I'll grant you the screen and browser..beautifully done. It's why i bought one. But even browsing, it's a swipe fest. On the Centro, most what i browse fits to screen and you scroll down.

    No games to waste time on when out and about and you're looking to do so. What the iphone going to offer? Finger games? You need a stylus and buttons. If you want to stream internet radio or see something other than youtube? Sorry..outta luck on the iphone. Record voice, phone calls, video? Sorry, no can do. Tether a laptop? Not on the iphone. Watch tv via slingbox? Not on the iphone.

    You got that nice screen with the iphone, but very little to do with it other than browse or watch video or have swipe fests with.
    Well, sounds like you just don't like it! I could reply to each of your points, but I think these conversations after a while just don't go anywhere. To a degree, our different viewpoints just reflect preference differences. But as they say, the market will speak. And I think the new (most powerful) devices coming out from HTC, LG, Nokia, and others, as well as Google's OS all point in a direction that looks a lot like the iPhone. We'll see!
    Last edited by MobileGuy; 11/12/2007 at 04:00 PM.
    Psion 3a > Palm Vx w/ Omnisky > Blackberry 850 > Treo 300 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700P > Apple iPhone
  16. #76  
    LOL..guess i'll eat my words on that one.
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    #77  
    Quake has actually been running on PalmOS for a few years. It was ported by the same team that wrote LJP. That said, I do see Palm in a LOT of trouble in the near future. With the coming iPhone SDK, it's only a matter of time before someone ports a PalmOS emulator. And one will probably be available for a Google phone too. If there's ever an iPhone or Google phone with a Treo style keyboard and touchscreen, I see no reason to stay with a Palm phone.
  18. #78  
    I think we should designate the current coffin as for "PalmOne", which is really and truly dead, then start a new coffin for "Palm". That way, we'll have loads of room for all the future "final nails" that people will come up with. That old coffin was getting too crowded, anyhow, no room left for more nails.
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    #79  
    The meme of this thread's title misses the point that so many posts here inadvertently make clear.
    There is room for more than one player in the market. and it is a hugely growing market for affordable smart phones. HTC, Apple, Android (if everyone gets along), Blackberry, Palm...they all have their supporters, and they all have a reason to compete.
    This is not a winner take all technology. If it was, Apple would not have dropped the price of their device so quickly. And wouldn't they be considered the winner this year, really, as far as innovation goes.
    It's closer to the truth that their entry into the market actually helps everyone. Palm's share is less, but the pie is getting a whole lot bigger. It is true that they all have their work cut out to get the biggest slice, but no one is going out of business just yet. We have Bono's word, sort of.
    Sprint Franken-Pre 2
  20. #80  
    Palm told me they wanted to be cremated, not laid to rest in a coffin.
    Matty
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