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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    aGPS is just triangulation (I think) If that's what you mean, that's been around forever. Every phone has that. It's an fcc mandate. It's definintely not better than having satellite navigation. Ideally ya have both.

    Whether its usable for normal applications, that depends and is more complicated.

    Look, you are trying to make some argument about WM, and you have that fake letter from HTC (which while I am not 100% sure is fake--looks pretty fake). Everybody agrees that all the carriers needs to have open use of GPS, carriers that don't make me angry too. But let's not make up all this nefarious stuff and conspiracy theories especially about WM which I don't think is like some big target of like a right wing conspiracy.
    Geez, you really are ignorant aren't you, on this specific issue?

    aGPS is not "just triangulation". You are confusing cell-tower triangulation with satellites.

    GPS is a satellite based positioning system. Assisted GPS, or A-GPS was introduced to enhance performance. The development of A-GPS was accelerated by the U.S. FCC's E911 mandate requiring the position of a cell phone to be available to emergency call dispatchers. [1]

    Conventional GPS then had difficulty providing reliable positions in poor signal conditions. For example when surrounded by tall buildings (as a result of multipath), or when the satellite signals are weakened by being indoors or under trees. Some newer receivers fare better.

    In addition, when first turned on in these conditions, some non-A-GPS units may not be able to download the almanac and ephemeris information from the GPS satellites, rendering them unable to function until a clear signal can be received continuously for up to one minute.

    An A-GPS receiver can address these problems in several ways, using an Assistance Server:

    * The Assistance Server can locate the phone roughly by what cell site it is connected to on the cellular network.
    * The Assistance Server has a good satellite signal, and lots of computation power, so it can compare fragmentary signals relayed to it by cell phones, with the satellite signal it receives directly, and then inform the cell phone or emergency services of the cell phone's position.
    * It can supply orbital data for the GPS satellites to the cell phone, enabling the cell phone to lock to the satellites when it otherwise could not, and autonomously calculate its position.
    * It can have better knowledge of ionospheric conditions and other errors affecting the GPS signal than the cell phone alone, enabling more precise calculation of position. (See also Wide Area Augmentation System)

    Some A-GPS solutions require an active connection to a cell phone (or other data) network to function, in others [2] [3] it simply makes positioning faster and more accurate, but is not required.

    As an additional benefit, it can reduce both the amount of CPU and programming required for a GPS Phone by offloading most of the work onto the assistance server. (This is not a large amount for a basic GPS - many early GPSs ran on 386/16 or similar hardware).

    High Sensitivity GPS is an allied technology, that addresses some of the same issues in a way that does not require additional infrastructure. It notably cannot provide instant fixes when the phone has been off for some time, that some forms of A-GPS can.
    Gadget, you act like you know so much on this topic, yet you know jack. Read up on GPSOne (PDF from Qualcomm), the same chipset found in every modern Sprint phone.

    Using a combination of GPS satellite signals and the cell towers themselves, gpsOne allows your location to be plotted with greater accuracy than traditional GPS systems in areas where satellite reception is problematic due to buildings or terrain.
    (Link)
    Since gpsOne is integrated directly into select MSM solutions,
    it is uniquely capable of seamlessly combining with BREW®, Java®
    and Windows Mobile® development platforms, standards-compatible
    location protocol stacks, and multimedia functionality
    and other capabilities from the Launchpad™ suite. This enables
    new location services that use multiple technologies from the
    Launchpad platform, including:
    • Advanced location-based gaming with QUALCOMM’s
    Q3Dimension™ graphics solution
    • Location-stamped photos with digital still camera quality or
    high-quality video clips, enabled by Qcamera™ and
    Qcamcorder™
    • Video triggered by location for point-of-interest applications
    with Qtv™
    • Friend-finding applications that can provide location
    information during other operations
    Stop spreading this nonsense that aGPS is less sensitive than GPS--it's not.

    I haven't said anything about a "conspiracy" or "nefarious": those are your words. All I have done is point to the facts: there are currently NO Windows Mobile or Palm OS smartphones on Sprint/Verizon that (a) have standalone GPS or (b) have user-accessible aGPS.

    That is a fact.

    The reasons? (1) The carriers do not order the devices with the technology, either on purpose or just not caring (2) They have the feature disabled or (3) They do not know how to integrate aGPS into their framework. It can be one or a combo of those, I do not know (but does any explanation make you feel confident about the carriers?).

    The technology exists, it already works (see Moto and Java phones on Sprint) yet it does not work on WM or Palm devices on CDMA. At the same time though, WM devices on other carriers can have GPS/aGPS that works, and even on Sprint they have phones with gpsOne that can also provide real-time location data for mapping (GMaps, TeleNav).

    Not only have you demonstrated your total lack of the technology we are discussing, but you have also failed to explain why no high-end smartphones besides BBs have GPS in them. If it's not the carriers fault, then who? HTC? Motorola? Palm? Samsung? All of these companies choose to not offer GPS or accessible aGPS on ther CDMA smartphones?

    So it's not a "conspiracy" of Sprint, but rather of various smartphone manufactures? Is that your alternate explanation? (If not, than what is it?)

    Let me guess: it's all Palm's fault. Just like it's Palm's fault that the new Sprint HTC Touch has no Wifi, even though it's GSM sister does? Or was that HTC's decision--they're forcing Sprint to accept a non-wifi device?

    I actually like Sprint, a lot. I've signed up 5 people in the last 2 months on their service. I accept their control issues because I have SERO, have had 3g for 2 years now and actually like my devices.

    But don't give them a pass on this issue--you're smarter than that.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 11/03/2007 at 03:14 AM.

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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Geez, you really are ignorant aren't you, on this specific issue?

    aGPS is not "just triangulation". You are confusing cell-tower triangulation with satellites.



    Gadget, you act like you know so much on this topic, yet you know jack. Read up on GPSOne (PDF from Qualcomm), the same chipset found in every modern Sprint phone.

    (Link)

    Stop spreading this nonsense that aGPS is less sensitive than GPS--it's not.

    I haven't said anything about a "conspiracy" or "nefarious": those are your words. All I have done is point to the facts: there are currently NO Windows Mobile or Palm OS smartphones on Sprint/Verizon that (a) have standalone GPS or (b) have user-accessible aGPS.

    That is a fact.

    The reasons? (1) The carriers do not order the devices with the technology, either on purpose or just not caring (2) They have the feature disabled or (3) They do not know how to integrate aGPS into their framework. It can be one or a combo of those, I do not know (but does any explanation make you feel confident about the carriers?).

    The technology exists, it already works (see Moto and Java phones on Sprint) yet it does not work on WM or Palm devices on CDMA. At the same time though, WM devices on other carriers can have GPS/aGPS that works, and even on Sprint they have phones with gpsOne that can also provide real-time location data for mapping (GMaps, TeleNav).

    Not only have you demonstrated your total lack of the technology we are discussing, but you have also failed to explain why no high-end smartphones besides BBs have GPS in them. If it's not the carriers fault, then who? HTC? Motorola? Palm? Samsung? All of these companies choose to not offer GPS or accessible aGPS on ther CDMA smartphones?

    So it's not a "conspiracy" of Sprint, but rather of various smartphone manufactures? Is that your alternate explanation? (If not, than what is it?)

    Let me guess: it's all Palm's fault. Just like it's Palm's fault that the new Sprint HTC Touch has no Wifi, even though it's GSM sister does? Or was that HTC's decision--they're forcing Sprint to accept a non-wifi device?

    I actually like Sprint, a lot. I've signed up 5 people in the last 2 months on their service. I accept their control issues because I have SERO, have had 3g for 2 years now and actually like my devices.
    I'm not ignornant I just think you are taking unrelated and in some cases wholly made of sets of facts to make a case. I said from the get go that satellite based gps is different than triangulation. I said in my view, having both was better then just one, and if you had one, I think satellite is superior but that is again, my opinion based on what I've used and liked.

    Also you keep trying to make blanket statements about Sprint keeping X OS like WM from using any forms of GPS, now you've got some new argument that Qcom's GPSone is the important test if Sprint is engaged in some conspiracy. The use of Qualcomm for GPS and or other software based applicaitons is a whole separate set of issue that have to do with long term technology choices, royalty fees, and software. Mixing it up into the core issue of carriers purposefully block GPS in whole or specific to applications is not a leg you want to try to stand on.

    Besides. I don't really care if people use a gps solution from Qualcomm or Sirf or whoever as long as the consumer can see the signal unfettered and use it as he/she pleases for open apps such as google maps.

    And I never gave sprint a free pass, I just don't feel the need to make up extra stuff with false and misleading information or most likely fake memos from HTC, I think their behavior on it's own is factual basis enough. Without making up tidbits and trying to pass them off as "facts".
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    I'm not ignornant I just think you are taking unrelated and in some cases wholly made of sets of facts to make a case.
    And you have refuted nothing, just labeled my arguments.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    I said from the get go that satellite based gps is different than triangulation. I said in my view, having both was better then just one, and if you had one, I think satellite is superior but that is again, my opinion based on what I've used and liked.
    But, once again, aGPS is not just cell tower triangulation--that is a 3rd, older technology: (1) GPS (2) aGPS (3) cell triangulation are different things, aGPS encompasses GPS and cell triangulation is something completely different.

    It's not an opinion that standalone GPS is less accurate and slower than aGPS like you make it out to be. Assisted GPS, which can have up to four modes of operation including standalone e.g. straight satellite based, is always preferable to non-aGPS systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Also you keep trying to make blanket statements about Sprint keeping X OS like WM from using any forms of GPS, now you've got some new argument that Qcom's GPSone is the important test if Sprint is engaged in some conspiracy.
    Once again--I have never mentioned conspiracy. When Verizon cripples BT on their devices, is that conspiracy?

    gpsOne is in all Sprint phones and is what gives their handsets GPS capabilities to use TeleNav and Gmaps. All WM phones have gpsOne but it is not accessible.

    Why? You cannot answer, can you? You'll just dodge the question and label it "conspiracy".
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    The use of Qualcomm for GPS and or other software based applicaitons is a whole separate set of issue that have to do with long term technology choices, royalty fees, and software. Mixing it up into the core issue of carriers purposefully block GPS in whole or specific to applications is not a leg you want to try to stand on.
    So then explain to me how a Moto Razr with gpsOne is able to use TeleNav or Gmaps, but the same platform does not work in WM devices (even though Qualcomm says it can).
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Besides. I don't really care if people use a gps solution from Qualcomm or Sirf or whoever as long as the consumer can see the signal unfettered and use it as he/she pleases for open apps such as google maps.
    WM devices can pull down GPS data from the towers, just like all Sprint phones. The difference is those phones have APIs for accessing that data for 3rd party programs and WM devices do not.

    Now explain the difference. Who's fault is it that this feature is not usable on Sprint all WM devices, regardless of who makes them?

    Or continue to dodge and label my arguments with pejoratives.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    And I never gave sprint a free pass, I just don't feel the need to make up extra stuff with false and misleading information or most likely fake memos from HTC, I think their behavior on it's own is factual basis enough. Without making up tidbits and trying to pass them off as "facts".
    (1) I haven't referred to the UT Starcom Q&A for awhile, yet you keep bringing it up.
    (2) It's singular, not plural. It is also not a memo.
    (3) You say it's fake and made up: show your evidence. You can't just declare something is fake by fiat.

    By throwing words like "conspiracy", "made up", "fake", "misleading", "false", "nefarious", etc. you are not making arguments but merely labeling that which you cannot argue against.

    What have I said that is misleading? You speak in generalities but never actually refute my arguments. Tell you what, refute any of these:

    (a) gpsOne provides real-time GPS data to Sprint phones
    (b) WM devices have this same chipset but the info is not accessible
    (c) OEM/ODMs can make CDMA devices with GPS
    (d) Sprint & Verizon currently have no WM devices with GPS.

    I don't know why Sprint has no WM devices with GPS or user-accessible aGPS (like a simple flip-phone). But they don't and it is not because the technology doesn't exist, in fact these phones have the technology already.

    The GPS data is there but not usable...again, why?

    You have no idea either and have made no points in this regard.

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  4. #44  
    Just a couple of points here...

    As Malatesta pointed out, aGPS data is not user-accessible, but it is accessible. Sprint Family Locator makes use of this and it does work on the Treo 700wx (AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK).

    There is a rumored update due early next year (I've seen mention of this in a couple of places) for the Sprint Mogul that will enable access to the GPSOne chipset. Whether this works strictly for Telenav or other GPS software, and whether the update actually materializes is another matter.

    This is from a Product Manager of the Sprint Family Locator product, so take it for what it's worth:
    http://fl-forum.wavemarket.com/viewtopic.php?t=891

    Also since I've had some interest in this, I spent some time disassembling system DLLs to figure out how to access the aGPS and I will tell you it's well hidden. I was making slow progress, but in the end decided it wasn't worth the effort (since I wasn't sure what's required to interact with their aGPS servers and because it was simpler to buy a Holux on ebay for $35, lol).
  5. #45  
    Good info zbop and you're right about Family Locator...I forgot some people were able to sign up for it on other devices that are officially supported by it and switch to a WM device, leaving it on their account for activation (or something similar...I'll read that thread you posted to see if that jives)

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    #46  
    well if congress passes that law they are pushing for it could make carrier subsities and restrictions a thing of the past. Imagine, you choose your hardware and your carrier not just what 8 phones the carrier happens to have at that time
    M505 -> M515 -> Kyo6035 -> Kyo 7135 -> Treo 600 ->Treo 650 -> Treo 700P -> Treo 700 WX -> Samsung Saga VZW
  7. kaoswlf's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by pump142 View Post
    well if congress passes that law they are pushing for it could make carrier subsities and restrictions a thing of the past. Imagine, you choose your hardware and your carrier not just what 8 phones the carrier happens to have at that time
    That would be awesome....
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAOSWLF View Post
    That would be awesome....
    and then people will complain that they can't afford a $300 phone and new problems will arise.
  9. #49  
    Malesta:

    The point you missed was-- e911 GPS related data is available in ALL phones by All carriers. You keep asking why doens't sprint have GPS data available on all their phones then. Was the FCC requirement to carry e991 data Sprint specific?

    Guess what, all carriers have this requirement and consequently some FCC data, its an FCC requirement and has been for years. That doesn't mean it's always user accessible.

    So why all the Sprint harping by you when every carrier has this issue. Why don't all the t-mobile or ATT phones have user accessible e911 data? They have the technical capability right? So why don't they? The answer is it takes extra software work and time and there are other solutions down the road that are coming.

    You then take that info then make some claim that Sprint is purposefully blocking this data by combining a/b/c/d facts. Even making claims that it is WM phones specifically they are blocking and claiming its "a fact". That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me which is why I am labeling the idea as such.

    The worst part is you make the claim that this is an undisputed fact which is doing a disservice to the people who read these boards, misleading and avoids real change because people are then becoming mal educated by your naive and misleading notions.

    Thats why, especially in the context of the HTC memo which I said looked fake to me (I didn't say it was a fake, but it was my opinion that it was). I still stand by my opinion that that did not come from HTC and that among other information you've provided is erroneous.

    So it's in the context of those statements, the what looks to be fake information from HTC (really naive of you to even believe that was real btw), the crazy theory you came up with about Sprint having banning GPS for WM specific phone (I mean wow) that lead me to the statement that your theories were conspiracy oriented and not based on fact or a realistic view on how the industry is actually working and changing now.

    For goodness sakes, Sprint is worried a lot more about how to get good handsets that people will buy so they can save their company rather than your ideas about how to block people's use of their features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    And you have refuted nothing, just labeled my arguments.

    But, once again, aGPS is not just cell tower triangulation--that is a 3rd, older technology: (1) GPS (2) aGPS (3) cell triangulation are different things, aGPS encompasses GPS and cell triangulation is something completely different.

    It's not an opinion that standalone GPS is less accurate and slower than aGPS like you make it out to be. Assisted GPS, which can have up to four modes of operation including standalone e.g. straight satellite based, is always preferable to non-aGPS systems.

    Once again--I have never mentioned conspiracy. When Verizon cripples BT on their devices, is that conspiracy?

    gpsOne is in all Sprint phones and is what gives their handsets GPS capabilities to use TeleNav and Gmaps. All WM phones have gpsOne but it is not accessible.

    Why? You cannot answer, can you? You'll just dodge the question and label it "conspiracy".

    So then explain to me how a Moto Razr with gpsOne is able to use TeleNav or Gmaps, but the same platform does not work in WM devices (even though Qualcomm says it can).

    WM devices can pull down GPS data from the towers, just like all Sprint phones. The difference is those phones have APIs for accessing that data for 3rd party programs and WM devices do not.

    Now explain the difference. Who's fault is it that this feature is not usable on Sprint all WM devices, regardless of who makes them?

    Or continue to dodge and label my arguments with pejoratives.

    (1) I haven't referred to the UT Starcom Q&A for awhile, yet you keep bringing it up.
    (2) It's singular, not plural. It is also not a memo.
    (3) You say it's fake and made up: show your evidence. You can't just declare something is fake by fiat.

    By throwing words like "conspiracy", "made up", "fake", "misleading", "false", "nefarious", etc. you are not making arguments but merely labeling that which you cannot argue against.

    What have I said that is misleading? You speak in generalities but never actually refute my arguments. Tell you what, refute any of these:

    (a) gpsOne provides real-time GPS data to Sprint phones
    (b) WM devices have this same chipset but the info is not accessible
    (c) OEM/ODMs can make CDMA devices with GPS
    (d) Sprint & Verizon currently have no WM devices with GPS.

    I don't know why Sprint has no WM devices with GPS or user-accessible aGPS (like a simple flip-phone). But they don't and it is not because the technology doesn't exist, in fact these phones have the technology already.

    The GPS data is there but not usable...again, why?

    You have no idea either and have made no points in this regard.
    Last edited by gadgetfreaky; 11/04/2007 at 12:44 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    You then take that info then make some claim that Sprint is purposefully blocking this data by combining a/b/c/d facts. Even making claims that it is WM phones specifically they are blocking and claiming its "a fact". That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me which is why I am labeling the idea as such.

    ....the crazy theory you came up with about Sprint having banning GPS for WM specific phone (I mean wow) that lead me to the statement that your theories were conspiracy oriented and not based on fact or a realistic view on how the industry is actually working and changing now.
    This is all incorrect and you just keep labeling my arguments to fit your view.

    I have never said that Sprint is purposefully "banning" WM devices from having either user accessible aGPS or standalone GPS (although I did cite that letter from UT Starcom, which is not HTC. UT Starcom is actually about 5 miles from me, maybe I should just ask them..)

    This is what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    The reasons? (1) The carriers do not order the devices with the technology, either on purpose or just not caring (2) They have the feature disabled or (3) They do not know how to integrate aGPS into their framework. It can be one or a combo of those, I do not know (but does any explanation make you feel confident about the carriers?).
    Then again, I do maintain that Sprint is not interested in having WM devices with standalone GPS, the reason is obvious: there are no WM devices on Sprint with standalone GPS in them.

    Their top of the line, power user HTC ppc-6800 has no standalone GPS even though it would have been easy for HTC to include it (like the HTC Kaiser). If Sprint was interested in allowing this feature in their devices, especially their top of the line WM device in 2007, then they would have requested it's feature to be added.

    It is that simple.

    The aGPS argument, as I mentioned above, probably has as much to do with Sprint not wanting and their inability to get the APIs working correctly on those devices within their network. So chalk it up to ineptitude, not conspiracy.

    As far as blocking features, I'm still not clear on why no WM devices on Sprint can't do MMS either. Isn't Sprint blocking that feature or am I being conspiratorial again?

    See, your problem is you fail to explain anything about this situation on Sprint:
    • Why has Sprint never ordered a WM device with standalone GPS?
    • Why can't Sprint get aGPS to work on their network for WM devices, but it works for Java phones, even after 2 years with WM5 on the market?

    So, what is your explanation for the above? If Sprint can't get aGPS to work, then they order a device with a SirfIII chipset. Problem solved. But they don't bother. Why? I have no idea.

    But what I do know: it's not that HTC, Palm, Motorola or Samsung cannot do it or don't want to. So the blame goes to the carrier; <insert their motivation here>.

    BTW, here is an interesting article on all the Sprint/Nextel GPS services, how long they've had them, etc. Notice the absence of all WM devices--once again, I'm willing to concede the aGPS argument to just incompetence on Sprint's network.

    "Sprint Nextel, already for several years, offer many GPS Solutions"


    At the end of the day, we are back where we are started:

    - No WM devices on Sprint with GPS or accessible aGPS
    - However, both technologies are available & work
    Last edited by Malatesta; 11/04/2007 at 02:02 PM.

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  11. #51  
    Malesta:
    I don't have a "view" or an agenda other than people being reasonable in their assumptions and statements. I don't work for any OS provider, Palm, Microsoft or push any OS in any forum.

    For example, I don't really care about WM, I just want a good user experience including GPS for all OS not just WM. I am a former wireless guy from very very early on but don't work or hold interests in any now. I hope you can say the same. And generally, I think Microsoft makes bad software, that is reason enough to encourage development of better platforms. If MSFT all of a sudden puts out some great OS then I'll be glad to be wrong and enjoy seeing some world class software such as deployed by Apple and Google.

    As for me not proving a reasonable explaination for why Sprint might not have GPS on the mogul or other devices, you never really refuted my argument or explanation. I believe it was a reasonable explanation and you never really answered why you don't have the same questions about all the other carriers and devices since they are all subject to e911 rules.

    I don't think they have anything against WM and I think the reason people generally react so poorly to your posts is they spout undocumented and obviously paranoid,and biased theories that really have no bearing on what's actually happening in the wireless industry. And I already provided backup in my posts for why I have labled your theories as such.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Malesta: (edit: It's Malatesta--at least accord me the respect of spelling my name right, unless you are utterly incapable of such behavior)
    As for me not proving a reasonable explaination for why Sprint might not have GPS on the mogul or other devices, you never really refuted my argument or explanation. I believe it was a reasonable explanation and you never really answered why you don't have the same questions about all the other carriers and devices since they are all subject to e911 rules.
    As I mentioned, there are two separate ways of doing GPS on WM devices:

    • aGPS
    • GPS (standalone)

    aGPS is done on some carriers like AT&T, with devices like the iPAQ line which uses GlobalLocate in conjunction with TeleNav. So there you go--aGPS on WM devices.

    In fact, the new HTC Kaiser (AT&T Tilt) is a GPSOne (aGPS) device, so I don't know where you are getting this "other carries can't do it either" business.

    Consider your argument refuted. Now why doesn't Sprint put GPS in any of it's WM devices?

    Second, lets drop the aGPS part and just go with standalone GPS--throw a SirfIII chip in there like Eten or HTC P3300--there done.

    Neither of those options are done by Sprint for WM devices (though as I mentioned, they have aGPS for all their other flip java phones). Why? I don't know but that's the fact of the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    I don't think they have anything against WM and I think the reason people generally react so poorly to your posts is they spout undocumented and obviously paranoid,and biased theories that really have no bearing on what's actually happening in the wireless industry. And I already provided backup in my posts for why I have labled your theories as such.
    (1) I never said they have anything against WM. That is you putting words in my mouth. All I've consistently said is this: they don't have any WM devices with GPS/accessible aGPS, even though they could.

    I have never attributed motivation for their decisions. I simply do not know why they don't do either option, but they don't.

    (2) "....people generally react so poorly to your posts"

    Who are these people--or is this yet another thinly veiled ad hominem? As far as I can tell, you are the only one debating me on this topic.

    I have no "theories" on why Sprint operates the way they do, all I have done is shown the obvious: they have no GPS WM devices, even though they could. Heck, even with basic triangulation services, like the new Sprint/Microsoft Live service, WM devices are left off. And once again, I do not know why, but they are.

    This is you, once again, labeling arguments with pejorative terminology with poorly attempted psychoanalysis ("paranoid") while avoiding and obfuscating any real debate.

    Edit: And, as previously mentioned, it's about Sprint and Verizon not having the proper APIs written to access and take advantage of LBS on WM devices:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Price
    HTC says GPS in their CDMA FCC filings... a lot... but almost always they're referring to the gpsOne component of the Qualcomm chipset. I really doubt the PPC-6800 magically got built-in GPS added at the last minute. It's much more likely HTC and Microsoft are working with Sprint and Verizon to develop an LBS API for developers. HTC takes a major cost-cutting approach, just in order to keep profitability in the developing CDMA market... adding a SIRF GPS would be not in-line with that profit model, especially with gpsOne is about to start working on these devices.
    (link)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Price
    That doesn't necessarily stop Sprint Navigation from being released on Windows Mobile... TeleNav handles account verification independently for that. But, that problem is more dependent on the lack of an LBS API, which Verizon and Sprint have admitted they're working on fixing.
    (link)

    Of course I'm sure you'll choose to ignore him too. But once again, no "conspiracy" just more or less incompetence, inability, non-interest and most likely money.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 11/05/2007 at 08:40 PM.

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  13. #53  
    1) You've pretty clearly said that you beleive that Sprint is purposefully blocking GPS data in WM phones. Are you backtracking from this?

    2) You still have not refuted the argument that presumes you still believe premise #1. Third time is a charm maybe? Let me try one more time.
    Only 2-3 Sprint phones have user accessible GPS data. Yet ALL sprint phones have e911 data. This is the same as any other carrier since it's is an FCC mandate, some maybe have 1-2 more devices with GPS data why then the theory that Sprint is blocking this on purpose?

    Are all the other carriers blocking this data on purpose according to your theory? Or is it the reasonable explanation I proposed in many prior posts to explain it valid?

    Just because every device has e911 ability or some other GPS capability doesn't mean that the carrier is blocking it if the user can't use it.


    That logic applies to Sprint as well as ever other carrier. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that.

    And yes people do have negative reactions to your posts, I had to jump in there when some guy lumped my view in with yours as paranoid and illfounded specifally accusing you of lumping in Sprint with Verizon. It's in this thread. Scroll up. I do honestly think it brings the quality of the boards down because there is a lot of misinformation in your posts and you seem to have some kind of bias which I tried to get you to disclose but you don't seem to want to.

    Also, if that's not enough Sprint joined Google's open source effort with T-Mobile. I know personally what Google plans to do with mobile devices. That's about as open as a mobile device is goin to be. How does that fit in with your notion that sprint is removing GPS capability from all WM phones?

    Again, truly idiotic and naive notions. Sprint's got enough problems without you making up new ones for them. Why not work on getting specific device makers to make better devices for Sprint's network rather than making up all this crazy stuff, fake HTC emails and misdirecting people's attention away from real problems.

    Oh and I notice you didn't say anything about you not having some kind of employment, industry agenda or or some other forum agenda that is making you so concerned about protecting WM or being so anti Sprint specifically. Sprint is no gem, but they sure are not as bad as Verizon or others. If you are somehow related to Microsoft or some other industry group/entity, I think we all deserve to know. If you don't have some kind of bias then just let us know that too. As it is, it's the only reason I can think that someone would come up with this stuff-- ie. they have some kind of industry axe to grind for their own purposes. It's fine if you do, you just need to disclose it.
    Last edited by gadgetfreaky; 11/05/2007 at 09:33 PM.
  14.    #54  
    you guys have killed my thread.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    1) You've pretty clearly said that you beleive that Sprint is purposefully blocking GPS data in WM phones. Are you backtracking from this?
    Until Sprint comes out and says why they do not offer aGPS services for WM devices on their network and/or order WM devices with standalone GPS, I have to assume it is because they do not want it (i.e. blocking it) or they just don't care. And according to this source, they are "debating" which option they should go with for the 800w.

    I have been consistent in that. From what I understand, Sprint does not have the APIs to access LBS on WM devices and therefore cannot offer those services, but that will change "sometime in the future".

    Read my above post. It states my position clearly.

    Now read what Sprint says on their own website and explain it to me, the customer:

    -->What is GPS and is my phone capable?

    I *dare* you to justify that.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    2) You still have not refuted the argument that presumes you still believe premise #1. Third time is a charm maybe? Let me try one more time.
    Only 2-3 Sprint phones have user accessible GPS data. Yet ALL sprint phones have e911 data.
    Actually, a lot can do TeleNav via internal aGPS and these can use MGMaps and aGPS:
    Motorola RAZR V3m, Samsung m500, LG Fusic, Sanyo 8400, Motorola IC902, Sanyo Katana II SCP-6650 and there are more.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    This is the same as any other carrier since it's is an FCC mandate, some maybe have 1-2 more devices with GPS data why then the theory that Sprint is blocking this on purpose?
    Some devices do not have the certificates to access or install 3rd party apps. While Sprint may not be actively blocking these programs, they do not encourage that either. However, they are not nearly as bad as Verizon who runs Brew, walling off any possibility of 3rd party apps.

    But when Sprint threatens to sue to stop a 3rd party providing GPS, yeah...I consider that trying to block. What do you consider it?

    --> Sprint unhappy about Mobile GMaps usage on its phones
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Are all the other carriers blocking this data on purpose according to your theory? Or is it the reasonable explanation I proposed in many prior posts to explain it valid?
    I don't have a "theory".

    You don't have a reasonable explanation for anything, period. AT&T has shown itself to be more open to these services. Verizon is plan awful, nay the worst of everything, and I have no opinion of T-mobile or rather it leans towards negative.

    Actually my opinion of all carriers is that they are too restrictive and have formed an artificial market for handsets, since they control the hardware (CDMA more so than GSM, obviously).
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Just because every device has e911 ability or some other GPS capability doesn't mean that the carrier is blocking it if the user can't use it.


    That logic applies to Sprint as well as ever other carrier. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that.
    Read my last post: I'm more than willing to say that Sprint either can't do aGPS on WM devices, but other ones. Maybe they are blocking aspects, maybe not. They won't say. This does not explain why they don't order a device with regular GPS in it, something which you keep ignoring.

    Others think the same thing too. Regarding the new Sprint Touch (link):
    the touch or vogue as it was codenamed initially had a NMEA internal GPS chip and accompanying antenna, and I remember seeing this specifically on pdadb.net a while back. After Sprint "re-branded" the phone, we find that this internal chip no longer exists we also find that wi-fi is no longer available.

    Thank you Sprint for crippling our product.
    Now read that whole thread and see what people think: GPS -- Time To Get Excited Yet?
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    And yes people do have negative reactions to your posts, I had to jump in there when some guy lumped my view in with yours as paranoid and illfounded specifally accusing you of lumping in Sprint with Verizon. It's in this thread. Scroll up. I do honestly think it brings the quality of the boards down because there is a lot of misinformation in your posts and you seem to have some kind of bias which I tried to get you to disclose but you don't seem to want to.
    Wow, one post? What a condemnation.

    Fact is, I can't stand Verizon and I do think they are much worse than Sprint. No one asked my opinion on it as I'm specifically interested in Sprint (being a customer of theirs).
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Oh and I notice you didn't say anything about you not having some kind of employment, industry agenda or or some other forum agenda that is making you so concerned about protecting WM or being so anti Sprint specifically.
    lol, grasping at straws?

    (a) I work in film and I'm in grad school for neuroscience
    (b) Have never worked for tech, phone companies or anything computer related
    (c) Not anti-Sprint as I just gladly paid full, out of pocket for a Centro, renewed my 2 year contract on Sero and have signed up numerous friends on Sprint.

    Feel better? Is your diversion over?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And spreading "false information"?
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Ugh. There is no carrier restriciton on GPS for Sprint. The Blackberry 8830 has a satellite based chip. No A-GPS. Actual GPS.
    Wrong. It has gpsOne, just like every other Sprint phone.

    Q – Does GPS work internationally?
    A – No, the GPS chipset on the 8830 is disabled when the device is in GSM/GPRS mode due to Qualcomm requirement.
    http://www.evdoinfo.com/content/view/2051/64/

    MSM6550 Specs

    Now who's spreading false information?

    Freak, you don't know what you are talking about. You have provided no evidence, no technical detail, no citations and answered zero questions that I have asked you. This is nothing but a continued personal attack on myself.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    you guys have killed my thread.
    Indeed we have.

    My sincerest apologies. I'm through here and this thread should be locked to avoid any more. This is quite lame.

    Understand, Freaky has done this before: see THIS thread
    Last edited by Malatesta; 11/06/2007 at 01:50 AM. Reason: Brevity, clarification, evidence...

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    you guys have killed my thread.
    they didn't kill it, they just gave it a life of it's own ... may you should just change the title ?

    gadgetfreaky, Malatesta (or shall i say 'Malesta') :-) - if you guys good avoiding flaming, you actually both bring good knowledge to the table.
    da Gimp

    Please note: My spelling sucks and I'm to lazy to check it.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by B-model View Post
    they didn't kill it, they just gave it a life of it's own ... may you should just change the title ?

    gadgetfreaky, Malatesta (or shall i say 'Malesta') :-) - if you guys good avoiding flaming, you actually both bring good knowledge to the table.
    LOL. Malesta the only person that kills other people's thread (or asks to have them closed because you can't take it), is you. You need to admit when you are wrong, or simply move on from a thread. It helps nobody to spend 100 pages of text avoiding the original question. Which was---does Sprint block GPS. I believe the answer is no, Malesta has another view. Oh an Malesta, the answer "Sprint does not have the APIs for WM" is the answer I gave you like 5 pages ago. Congrats....That's why I asked you the queston "why do you think all these other phones have e911 on other carriers but the GPS in not usable". And I don't persoanlly attack you--just your ideas which are horrible. The only one who makes personal attacks is you.

    Anyway. Back to the original posters thread.

    I think that Palm is very likely to fall short. The management there has not shown an ability to show innovation, and their investors are not smart enough to realize they need to swap out management.

    My treo 700p just died, I've got to figure out a good replacement for it that has GPS and good web browsing. I am ready to switch carriers...but I get such a good deal from Sprint I'd hate to switch. Maybe the 8830? Maybe just get a 755. I am not on a contract and don't want to committ to SPrint for 2 more years. Any suggestons? I am skeptical of the BBery's web browsing. I can use Gmail and other google apps on my palm so well I don't really want to swtich.
    Last edited by gadgetfreaky; 11/06/2007 at 12:45 PM.
  18. #58  
    Get a 755 and a Garmin. When the Treo dies, at least you'll know where your at.
  19. #59  
    I vote gadgetfreaky off the island...

    Go home!

    The stuff that Malatesta is saying regarding Sprint and GPS is true up until this point. We are all hoping that it changes soon. All you need to do is set out to get any device from Sprint that has Wifi and GPS and you will know there is something wrong.

    Anyway, even if Malatesta was wrong on this one thread the incredible wealth of knowledge that he has brought this forum is truly amazing. Especially around the early days of the 700w. We would miss him. You my friend are expendable.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by B-model View Post
    they didn't kill it, they just gave it a life of it's own ... may you should just change the title ?

    gadgetfreaky, Malatesta (or shall i say 'Malesta') :-) - if you guys good avoiding flaming, you actually both bring good knowledge to the table.
    Way to try to keep the peace but you are wrong on this one. Malatesta brings good knowledge. Gadgetfreaky brings the noise.

    Come on 2900 posts compared to 55. 10 of which came in this thread all making noise about nothing. Let's show some respect for those that have helped build this great house.

    My only message to Malatesta is that "People always said don't argue with fools because from a distance you can't tell who is who." -Jay-Z
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