Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 85
  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Not sure what your point is... If you look at HTC's lineup for the past 2 years, as well as the previews of HTC devices to come vs Palm's lineup, it is quite obvious that HTC is innovating and designing rings around Palm.

    I think Palm would actually be well-advised to leave the hardware manufacturing AND designing to HTC, and focus instead on the software/UI end, the only area that Palm actually has something unique to offer. Then maybe we could get a Treo the size of a Dash, instead of a brick that is 50% larger than the Dash.
    Well, I guess I don't see the point in mentioning that "HTC makes the 750" to gadgetluva's post? All they do is put the parts together, so how is it relevant?

    If you want to say HTC has a more innovative line-up, by all means do so. But mentioning that they make the 750 is irrelevant to that point.

    Couple of other things: imo, HTC devices are not that great. They look nice but the build quality is not amazing--it often feels cheap and mass produced, with flimsy battery covers, creaky buttons, etc. It's not that they're bad or poor, they're just not exceptional in quality.

    Also, the Dash is a smartphone. I have yet to see any PPC Professional that is as thin/small as the Dash/Moto Q. I don't know why that is, but it just seems to be the case (I think WM Smartphone just requires less processes to run, so it gets better battery life = thiner devices). Certainly all devices are getting thinner (and battery life is not exactly improving that much), but I'm not sure we'll see many professional edition Wm devices that thin for awhile.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ...HTC devices are not that great. They look nice but the build quality is not amazing--it often feels cheap and mass produced, with flimsy battery covers, creaky buttons, etc....
    True. I've heard and read similar things (especially button failure). HTC devices are great for consumers, but for mission critical corporate/business needs, I see mostly Treos & BB's.
  3. #43  
    Our company 6700's have been rock solid. They have been replaced a few times, taken mass beatings, but they still keep on ticking.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Couple of other things: imo, HTC devices are not that great. They look nice but the build quality is not amazing--it often feels cheap and mass produced, with flimsy battery covers, creaky buttons, etc. It's not that they're bad or poor, they're just not exceptional in quality.

    Also, the Dash is a smartphone. I have yet to see any PPC Professional that is as thin/small as the Dash/Moto Q.
    I hope you are not suggesting that Treo's are "exceptional" in quality... And I think most would say that the Dash build quality is better than the Q.

    As far as thinness, the HTC Touch, a WM/PPC device, is 13.9mm, which is SIX millimeters thinner than the Treos and within 1mm of the Dash. And of course the iPhone is 12mm, complete with touch screen, higher res display and tons more memory and CPU than the Treos. So basically, again, Palm has NO excuse for making Treos so fat, other than they can't engineer as well as either HTC or Apple.
  5. #45  
    I think Palm needs to become less secretive and put out photos and preliminary specs much long before the launch of their products. This would allow them to look at what people are saying about their product and react where needed. Apple, HTC, Nokia and Motorola all do this, look how long the Iphone and Q were hyped before it was released.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    I hope you are not suggesting that Treo's are "exceptional" in quality... And I think most would say that the Dash build quality is better than the Q.

    As far as thinness, the HTC Touch, a WM/PPC device, is 13.9mm, which is SIX millimeters thinner than the Treos and within 1mm of the Dash. And of course the iPhone is 12mm, complete with touch screen, higher res display and tons more memory and CPU than the Treos. So basically, again, Palm has NO excuse for making Treos so fat, other than they can't engineer as well as either HTC or Apple.
    (1) Everything I said after my main point is my opinion and I feel no need to explain or justify it.

    (2) HTC Touch? You picked the one device that has no keyboard to compare to everything else? Yes, it's true when you remove the keyboard, devices magically get thinner.

    The iPhone has nothing to do with my assertion about PPC Professional devices not being exceptionally thin. When HTC, or anyone else, makes a keyboarded WM6 Pro device as thin as the iPhone, let me know.

    All of this
    is getting way off topic of my original response to you: HTC putting the parts together for the Treo 750 is irrelevant.

    I don't much care to take it any further than that.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 08/27/2007 at 11:51 AM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    All of this is getting way off topic of my original response to you: HTC putting the parts together for the Treo 750 is irrelevant.
    You're still on that nano-point ? I think you are making a much bigger deal out of almost nothing. All he said was: "...HTC makes great devices sure, but this treo form factor just cant be beat..." and all I said was a reminder that "... HTC manufactures the 750 for Palm..." I thought it was a relevant reminder, but if you don't, fine... end of story... The rest of the discussion I do not believe is off-topic for this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    The iPhone has nothing to do with my assertion about PPC Professional devices not being exceptionally thin.
    If you think the functions, design and engineering of the iPhone has no relevance to the functions, design and engineering of WM/PPC devices, that is your prerogative...

    I'm sure you also know that this distinction you are pointing to between WM/Std and WM/Pro is, at this point, primarily a *marketing* distinction, not a technical distinction: the codebase between the two is nearly identical, particularly in WM6, and will be identical by WM7, per Microsoft.

    Anyways, it sounds like you think the Treo is an unmatched hardware and software engineering feat without rival or peer. I'm sure Palm appreciates it...
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    (2) HTC Touch? You picked the one device that has no keyboard to compare to everything else? Yes, it's true when you remove the keyboard, devices magically get thinner.

    The iPhone has nothing to do with my assertion about PPC Professional devices not being exceptionally thin. When HTC, or anyone else, makes a keyboarded WM6 Pro device as thin as the iPhone, let me know.
    [I].
    The UBiQUiO 501 (the one at the bottom) is actually a little thinner than the HTC Touch. Not quite iPhone thin, but only 1.5 mm off. I'm sure dropping the removable battery would gain that back also.

    http://www.modaco.com/content/manual...andfriends.jpg
    http://www.modaco.com/content/manual...andfriends.jpg
    http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=139977

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 08/27/2007 at 01:40 PM.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    You're still on that nano-point ? I think you are making a much bigger deal out of almost nothing. All he said was: "...HTC makes great devices sure, but this treo form factor just cant be beat..." and all I said was a reminder that "... HTC manufactures the 750 for Palm..." I thought it was a relevant reminder, but if you don't, fine... end of story... The rest of the discussion I do not believe is off-topic for this thread...
    I said it was off-topic to what I was responding to, I never said it was off topic to the thread.

    I was only responding to that point and the rest was just opinion on my part and I have no desire to take it much further.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    If you think the functions, design and engineering of the iPhone has no relevance to the functions, design and engineering of WM/PPC devices, that is your prerogative...
    Until any company makes a WM device with WM6 Pro on it and a full keyboard as thin as the iPhone, i don't see the relevance. The iPhone OS has much better battery management than WM and is better designed overall for ease of use. WM is much more poor is overall design and its requirements limit what the hardware can do. Maybe Photon will be better but I'm not betting on it.

    This is the benefit of building and OS around and restricted to specific hardware requirements: you can get much more out of it (iPhone). WM is extremely flexible and has various hardware requirements, but this is up to the OEM who may or may not take advantage of certain aspects. In the end, both approaches have their pros and cons.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    I'm sure you also know that this distinction you are pointing to between WM/Std and WM/Pro is, at this point, primarily a *marketing* distinction, not a technical distinction: the codebase between the two is nearly identical, particularly in WM6, and will be identical by WM7, per Microsoft.
    This is actually quite false. They have different requirements and processes that are required to run. They look more similar than before, but there is still a difference in the OS.

    Just look at the fact that the Phone and OS are inseparable in the Smartphone version, hence why you cannot turn one off and not the other, unlike a WM Pro. That should tell you something about how the architecture is very different between the two...

    Yes, by Photo this distinction will be gone, but that's only because Photon is a complete re-write of the OS.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Anyways, it sounds like you think the Treo is an unmatched hardware and software engineering feat without rival or peer. I'm sure Palm appreciates it...
    I never said as much and you are putting words in my mouth, hence this is a straw-man argument. I'm not sure how it would "sound" like it either since I've barely said anything about Palm (especially in this thread) outside I think their build-quality is higher than HTCs.

    I don't think HTC is all that great however. That is true.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 08/27/2007 at 01:45 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    This is actually quite false. They have different requirements and processes that are required to run. They look more similar than before, but there is still a difference in the OS.
    Both WM/Std (Smartphone) and WM/Pro (PPC) have the same codebase. They are both based on the same version of WinCE and *track* the same evolving versions of WinCE. They both sprang from the PocketPC evolution of the WinCE product line. Their divergence was driven by *marketing* decisions from Microsoft, i.e. how to best address the range of requirements of the market (low-end vs hi-end), which led to the different hardware target specs (touch screen vs no-touch screen, etc.). The QWERTY keyboard issue came from the *market* not from Microsoft, with the Q and similar Smartphones, then the 700w PPC, ie it had nothing to do with the technical distinctions between WM/Std and WM/Pro.

    I'm not sure why you think any relatively minor technical distinctions between WM/Std and WM/Pro would justify *all* WM/Pro devices being 50% fatter than WM/Std, the way that the Treos are and the way that you seem to be arguing...

    The Treo 700wx has 64Mb RAM, 128Mb ROM and a 312Mhz CPU. The HTC Cavalier (Dash successor) has 64Mb RAM, 128Mb ROM and a 400Mhz CPU, and it also does Wifi. So *why* is the 700wx 50% thicker than the Cavalier ? Because it runs WM/Pro instead of WM/Std ? Is that really what you think ?

    The reason why devices like the Dash run WM/Std instead of WM/Pro is not technical, but marketing: MS charges a lot less for WM/Std licences than WM/Pro licenses (and of course the touch screens adds to the cost...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Until any company makes a WM device with WM6 Pro on it and a full keyboard as thin as the iPhone, i don't see the relevance.
    ... I'm not sure how it would "sound" like it either since I've barely said anything about Palm (especially in this thread) outside I think their build-quality is higher than HTCs.
    Well, you've said that in considering the design and engineering of the Treo and Palm's abilities, that comparisons to the Dash, the Touch, the iPhone, etc, etc are *all* irrelevant. Presumably any other device that doesn't have a square touch screen would also be irrelevant. Therefore you are basically saying that the Treos stand alone in the marketplace and have no competition -- no existing devices represent relevant comparisons. I'm sure that Palm wished that this were true...
    Last edited by neurocutie; 08/27/2007 at 03:17 PM.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Both WM/Std (Smartphone) and WM/Pro (PPC) have the same codebase. They are both based on the same version of WinCE and *track* the same evolving versions of WinCE. They both sprang from the PocketPC evolution of the WinCE product line. Their divergence was driven by *marketing* decisions from Microsoft, i.e. how to best address the range of requirements of the market (low-end vs hi-end), which led to the different hardware target specs (touch screen vs no-touch screen, etc.). The QWERTY keyboard issue came from the *market* not from Microsoft, with the Q and similar Smartphones, then the 700w PPC, ie it had nothing to do with the technical distinctions between WM/Std and WM/Pro.
    Yes, I know all about WinCE...

    The difference between Smartphone and Professional was not based on marketing, but based on hardware differences and history, with WM Smartphone 2002/Stinger leading the pack (specifically the Avenger being the 1st AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK). $For$ $2002$ $and$ &$amp$; $2003$, $all$ $phone$ $devices$ $running$ $WM$ $ran$ $the$ $smartphone$ $edition$ $and$ $this$ $was$ $the$ $dominant$ $OS$ $for$ $WM$ $phone$ $devices$. $It$ $wasn$'$t$ $till$ $about$ $2004$ $with$ $the$ $iMate$ $did$ $we$ $begin$ $to$ $see$ $PocketPC$ $phones$ $and$ $smartphones$ $enter$ $the$ $market$.

    They share about 85% of the same API's now but

    (1) They still have different hardware requirements (smartphone: no touch screen, smaller display, vertical list UI, the UI is optimized for single handed use, numeric pad input, 96 and 131 DPI support, always on, slower storage, slower CPU)

    (2) They behave very differently e.g. smartphone is always on and doesn't sleep
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    I'm not sure why you think any relatively minor technical distinctions between WM/Std and WM/Pro would justify *all* WM/Pro devices being 50% fatter than WM/Std, the way that the Treos are and the way that you seem to be arguing...
    Like I said, forget Palm: Show me a WM Professional device with keyboard that is as thin as the Dash, Moto Q, Blackjack, etc...

    You can't, can you? You have the Touch and Glofish which are thin but no keyboards.

    I don't know why there is a difference but there is, regardless of who makes it Palm, HTC, Samsung, etc.

    The burden of proof is on you though to show a WM Professional device with a keyboard that is as thin as any WM smartphone, iPhone etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    The Treo 700wx has 64Mb RAM, 128Mb ROM and a 312Mhz CPU. The HTC Cavalier (Dash successor) has 64Mb RAM, 128Mb ROM and a 400Mhz CPU, and it also does Wifi. So *why* is the 700wx 50% thicker than the Cavalier ? Because it runs WM/Pro instead of WM/Std ? Is that really what you think ?
    I never said the Treo 700wx is a thin as they could make it and that it is all due to the OS (but you did leave out battery: 1800mah on the Palm vs. 1100mah on the Cavalier--that makes a difference)

    I am saying this: WM smartphones w/keyboards are always thinner/smaller than PocketPC phones w/keyboards. Show me otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    The reason why devices like the Dash run WM/Std instead of WM/Pro is not technical, but marketing: MS charges a lot less for WM/Std licences than WM/Pro licenses (and of course the touch screens adds to the cost...).
    Incorrect. There are hardware and API differences. One is also more "powerful" with the other being geared more for light use. They are not interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Well, you've said that in considering the design and engineering of the Treo and Palm's abilities, that comparisons to the Dash, the Touch, the iPhone, etc, etc are *all* irrelevant. Presumably any other device that doesn't have a square touch screen would also be irrelevant. Therefore you are basically saying that the Treos stand alone in the marketplace and have no competition -- no existing devices represent relevant comparisons. I'm sure that Palm wished that this were true...
    Stop presuming. You do that a lot--make straw man arguments.

    I've never said or insinuated that the Palm devices are as thin as they could be, rather that if you want a fair comparison, you need to compare them to similar devices with the same OS.

    Find me any WM Pro device with a keyboard that matches the Q and Dash in thinness.

    You explain to me why all WM Pro devices are thicker than WM Smartphone ones...

    None of this is a defense of Palm as much as characterizing the reality of the situation.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 08/27/2007 at 04:28 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    You do know that HTC manufactures the 750 for Palm, right ?
    Not sure what the assembler has to do with it. The Treo is designed in Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale). The streets of Tapei are littered with assemblers (HTC, Inventec, Quanta, Che Mei (CMCS) etc). I could assemble a Treo in my garage with the correct resources (parts, schematics etc), but not design one.

    If you're comparing the innovativeness of Palm's Engineering Dept versus HTC's Magic Labs in designing prowess, then that's a different question.

    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Then maybe we could get a Treo the size of a Dash, instead of a brick that is 50% larger than the Dash.
    Dash is not a touch-sensitive screen, Treo is. If you don't have to incorporate a sensor layer in the screen, it's much easier to make it thinner. Difficult to compare apples & oranges....
    Last edited by cinealta; 08/27/2007 at 04:58 PM.
  13. #53  
    At 13.5 mm, the UBiQUiO 501 is the same thickness as the HTC Cavalier.

    Surur
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    At 13.5 mm, the UBiQUiO 501 is the same thickness as the HTC Cavalier.

    Surur
    So that's a good one...although it is wider and taller. So that's one way of spreading out the meat.

    pics compared to 750

    "The UBIQUIO 501 is a little wider than the Treo - something you will feel in your joint..."

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ...The difference between Smartphone and Professional was not based on marketing, but based on hardware differences and history...
    Puleez... you really think the hardware differences between Smartphone and PPC (and "history" whatever that means...) came BEFORE Microsoft defined the Smartphone and PPC target/minimum specs ? MS *defined/determined* the Smartphone and PPC dicotomy based on *their* MARKETING and business strategies. Then came the actual hardware implementations. That is, MS's marketing/business strategies came first and defined what a WM/Smartphone and a WM/PPC should be like hardware-wise (i.e. minimum hardware specs), not the reverse...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ...with WM Smartphone 2002/Stinger leading the pack (specifically the Avenger being the 1st AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK). $For$ $2002$ $and$ &$amp$; $2003$, $all$ $phone$ $devices$ $running$ $WM$ $ran$ $the$ $smartphone$ $edition$ $and$ $this$ $was$ $the$ $dominant$ $OS$ $for$ $WM$ $phone$ $devices$. $It$ $wasn$'$t$ $till$ $about$ $2004$ $with$ $the$ $iMate$ $did$ $we$ $begin$ $to$ $see$ $PocketPC$ $phones$ $and$ $smartphones$ $enter$ $the$ $market$.
    Nope, the PPC came first, out of the early WinCE devices. PPC stands for Pocket PC. The Smartphone definition came *after* the PPC. MS began *marketing* the distinction between Smartphone and WM/PPC in 2003, and also created the Windows Mobile branding. But PPC devices existed prior to that point. I don't remember all those ancient devices, but certainly the Audiovox/Toshiba 2032 was one such device released in 2002, way before your 2004 date.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ...Like I said, forget Palm: Show me a WM Professional device with keyboard that is as thin as the Dash, Moto Q, Blackjack, etc...
    I don't know why there is a difference but there is, regardless of who makes it Palm, HTC, Samsung, etc.
    Well, you may be willing to forget Palm, but I am not... This is a Palm/Treo forum, and my discussion interests are not to scope out the WM field, but to understand and comment on Palm's position in the marketplace.

    As far as you not knowing why ? I've been trying to explain my view of why... simply that HTC *is* fully capable of making a thin WM/PPC device (as is Apple and probably RIM/BB, if they chose to), but Palm apparently cannot, and has no excuse other than sheer incompetence.

    If you think that non-existence, because no other is currently selling a thin, keyboarded WM/Pro device, is a sufficient basis for a proper understanding of Palm's engineering and design skills, then go for it...

    I *might* point out that the Wing and Mogul, both several mm thinner than a Treo have FULL length SLIDE-OUT keyboards that clearly add several mm to the ENTIRE thickness of those devices, but I'm sure you'll come back with another denial response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    ...None of this is a defense of Palm as much as characterizing the reality of the situation.
    I'll leave this with my own perception of the reality, in which I concur with tomvb2000's post:
    Quote Originally Posted by tomvb2000
    ...
    I know what you mean about a solid feel, but for me, the weight makes a difference. Pick up a BB Curve or other <4oz phone and the missing 1.6 ounces will be noticeable. The size and weight of the Treo mean it's not pocketable (at least not in a shirt pocket).
    My reality is that the size, weight, and yes, thickness, of Palm's current offerings are seriously damaging its marketability, and clearly demonstrate that Palm's design and engineering are not state-of-the-art. Palm needs to fix this, and soon...
  16. #56  
    (1) Yes, I know PPC devices came first. What I was referring to was that the 1st Phone devices were WM Smartphone editions, not PPC editions.

    PPC came first for non-phones --> WM Smartphones for phones --> PPC for phones.

    PPC versions were added later to the phone line, not before.

    (2) Palm 700 series is 20 months old (and was being well developed before that). Compare it to the 6700 (a device 2.5 months older) and it's just as thick, ugly and dated. The 750 series are minor upgrades.

    Wait till the 800 series is on the scene to see if Palm made any inroads and then compare it to current devices, like the Wing and Mogul. It already looks like they are with the Centro line.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    The 750 series are minor upgrades...
    Well at least we can agree on this point, which I think is what most of us are most concerned and disappointed about. For the past 4+ years Palm's effort has been nothing but minor upgrades. No one is faulting Palm's market and engineering with the Treo 600, but sheesh, after 4+ years all we have are still warmed over Treo 600's, while the competition has become from FAR behind to zip ahead, in terms of both hardware *and* software. Only Palm is to blame on this...

    I'll throw out one other point as to why I think the Dash *is* a relevant comparison to Treo's in terms of design and engineering (and thinness), and why your argument about WM/Std vs WM/Pro simply doesn't hold water as a valid excuse for the Treo: and that is simply Palm OS. Palm OS is, by *all* accounts, an extremely UNDER-powered lightweight OS -- FAR more underpowered relative to WM/Std than WM/Std is to WM/Pro. And yet all Treo's running Palm OS have the same thick-as-a-brick design. So it is not believeable that the reason Treo's are fat and the Dash can be thin is due to the WM/Pro vs WM/Std difference...
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    (1) Yes, I know PPC devices came first. What I was referring to was that the 1st Phone devices were WM Smartphone editions, not PPC editions.

    PPC came first for non-phones --> WM Smartphones for phones --> PPC for phones.

    PPC versions were added later to the phone line, not before.
    Actually, for a bit of smartphone history, the O2 XDA (HTC Wallaby) was the very first PocketPC Smartphone in June 2002, whereas the first Smartphone edition device was the HTC Canary in November 2002, so PocketPC Phone edition actually came first.

    Surur
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I never said the Treo 700wx is a thin as they could make it and that it is all due to the OS (but you did leave out battery: 1800mah on the Palm vs. 1100mah on the Cavalier--that makes a difference)
    what size battery comes in the the bulky and weighty Treo 680?
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    My reality is that the size, weight, and yes, thickness, of Palm's current offerings are seriously damaging its marketability, and clearly demonstrate that Palm's design and engineering are not state-of-the-art. Palm needs to fix this, and soon...
    hey, i see you've been reading my posts! just kidding.....but we share the same sentiment, exactly
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions