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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    True. This is precisely what Palm has been doing, ie slight improvements with same functionality and UI. I think what many people want are more bold improvements, sea-changes...paradigm shifts.

    Perhaps, a middle ground is prudent, forward innovation while retaining the capabilities & functions that legacy users know and love?
    Here's a novel thought: How about Palm making, omagosh!, TWO products, one more conservative with incremental improvements, and the other more innovative, risky and bold, with push-the-edge advances... oh, nevermind, I forgot that Palm doesn't know how to make more than one kind of device at a time (actually, it forgot... back in its King of PDAs days, it did know how to make several well-differentiated products to address different market segments, but I guess those skills were lost, along with its innovative prowess...)
  2. #22  
    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner going by the name of neurocutie.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Here's a novel thought: How about Palm making, omagosh!, TWO products, one more conservative with incremental improvements, and the other more innovative, risky and bold, with push-the-edge advances... oh, nevermind, I forgot that Palm doesn't know how to make more than one kind of device at a time (actually, it forgot... back in its King of PDAs days, it did know how to make several well-differentiated products to address different market segments, but I guess those skills were lost, along with its innovative prowess...)
    Maybe for GSM this makes sense, since you can sell unlocked versions.

    I'm not sure for CDMA though.

    For example, if Sprint or Verizon only order one WM Palm device (a very likely scenario, since they don't have much as it is and like to keep 1-per class of device), what good is the "make TWO products" argument? Why invest the R&D for a device that has no chance of being made?

    Sprint is Palm's largest customer, so how you answer this is quite important.

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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    For example, if Sprint or Verizon only order one WM Palm device (a very likely scenario, since they don't have much as it is and like to keep 1-per class of device), what good is the "make TWO products" argument? Why invest the R&D for a device that has no chance of being made?
    From my understanding, the early dev process is that two devices are prototyped (WM and PalmOS) and the carriers make the decsion as to which they would purchase with whatever modifications that the carrier requests.

    Carrier control has a hand in what comes out, not just Palm. Though, I'd like to believe that Palm can do a considerably "wow" device that would make their case for innovation stand. And even if not, go the Nokia route and bang out a high-speced model that sees only unlocked sales. That'd be neat too IMO.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM View Post
    ..go the Nokia route and bang out a high-speced model that sees only unlocked sales.
    In the GSM world you can do that, and Nokia being a European manufacturer that would be their main market. Palm have made inroads into Europe but the US is still their main market and one where CDMA is the dominant network.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by TazUk View Post
    In the GSM world you can do that, and Nokia being a European manufacturer that would be their main market. Palm have made inroads into Europe but the US is still their main market and one where CDMA is the dominant network.
    You both make great points.

    Palm's base and main customers are Sprint and Verizon, hence their main line is CDMA = more limitations.

    Hopefully, now that they're starting into GSM and Europe more, the Nokia route is more feasible and it will pay off on CDMA design.

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  7.    #27  
    I think many of you are missing my point.

    I am well aware of the carrier control, but I have a hard time believing the carriers would turn down a "refresh" of the Treo 750 that would focus around a thinner device (please don't make the keys smaller) and preferably a 320x320 screen with WM6. This approach is radically different than trying to roll our the next "iPhone" killer. The Treo is a proven device on the carriers. Of course if you bring out a device with a new Palm OS based on Linux with Wi-fi they are going to want 6 months to test. JUST REFRESH YOUR DEVICE.

    Corporate enterprise will shun iPhones for good reason - it is a consumer device. My point is that Palm/Treo should be stealing business from RIM. RIM is kicking *** right now and their devices suck ***. Perhaps WM6/Exchange 2007 will help change that with the introduce of the ability to destroy data on a device from the Exchange server. Security and enterprise management has been the mainstay of RIM since day one.

    Screw the Foleo. The money is in enterpise wireless e-mail. This has nothing to do with that Steve Jobs or Zander, or the RIM CEO's are smarter or more pedigree than Palm executives. This is freakin business 101 - chase too many rabbits and you catch none of them. Build a killer secure, enterprise managable, wireless email device and once you master that, then waste time building stupid stuff like the Foleo. If Microsoft can't provide the solution tools on the server side, buy or build what you need. There is billions of dollars to be had here. Execute a business plan Palm, execute!!

    RIM is making serious headwind in the consumer market with the Pearl and has gained 12% additional market share in one year. Treo is loosing at it's own consumer game.

    Also, sh1t or get off the pot. Build a new mobile OS that will cater to the enterprise or completely commit to WM - doing both does not work. See my point about Foleo. You can't do everything. You (Palm) are and you are failing.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by crabkilla View Post
    I think many of you are missing my point....

    Execute a business plan Palm, execute!!
    To be just as blunt as you are, Palm hasn't been executing and hence the issue we are here *discussing* about what could happen on their part and the part of consumers who do not have the patience to wait any more.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by crabkilla View Post
    My point is that Palm/Treo should be stealing business from RIM.
    True, but it's not that simple. RIM's push email doesn't just entail handsets (eg Blackberries). It involves many NOC (network operation center) servers across the globe. Enterprise systems, controlled by RIM in Waterloo, that "push" emails to customers devices. Palm is a hardware designer. It doesn't want to get into the enterprise systems management business.

    Handspring goofed by not patenting the physical thumbboard on the Treo 90 (during its design, circa 2000). RIM patented the same keyboard *after* the 90's release (2002), yet Handspring still lost the infringement case to RIM. Thus, Palm pays RIM a licensing fee for every Treo produced. RIM is cleaning up on both ends. RIM wants Palm to sell a ton of Treos, cause they make bank on it.
    Last edited by cinealta; 08/27/2007 at 04:16 PM.
  10. TazUk's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Hopefully, now that they're starting into GSM and Europe more, the Nokia route is more feasible...
    Before they do that they need to drastically improve their image in Europe. When people see my 750v they say "Oh is that a Blackberry", when I tell them no it's a Palm Treo they have blank look on their faces. Most people here don't know who Palm are and I expect that's the case throughout Europe

    Things may improve now that Vodafone are selling them. Previously the only carrier here that sold Treo's was Orange and they did little or nothing to market them.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by crabkilla View Post
    I think many of you are missing my point.

    I am well aware of the carrier control, but I have a hard time believing the carriers would turn down a "refresh" of the Treo 750 that would focus around a thinner device (please don't make the keys smaller) and preferably a 320x320 screen with WM6.
    What are you talking about? The carries didn't turn that device down. It's been accepted and is called the 800w. I'm sure that we would all love Palm/Sprint to test and release phones more quickly, but as buggy as most pdaphones are when they finally do get released, I don't think that you'd like the results.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by crabkilla View Post
    I think many of you are missing my point.

    I am well aware of the carrier control, but I have a hard time believing the carriers would turn down a "refresh" of the Treo 750 that would focus around a thinner device (please don't make the keys smaller) and preferably a 320x320 screen with WM6. This approach is radically different than trying to roll our the next "iPhone" killer. The Treo is a proven device on the carriers. Of course if you bring out a device with a new Palm OS based on Linux with Wi-fi they are going to want 6 months to test. JUST REFRESH YOUR DEVICE.

    Corporate enterprise will shun iPhones for good reason - it is a consumer device. My point is that Palm/Treo should be stealing business from RIM. RIM is kicking *** right now and their devices suck ***. Perhaps WM6/Exchange 2007 will help change that with the introduce of the ability to destroy data on a device from the Exchange server. Security and enterprise management has been the mainstay of RIM since day one.

    Screw the Foleo. The money is in enterpise wireless e-mail. This has nothing to do with that Steve Jobs or Zander, or the RIM CEO's are smarter or more pedigree than Palm executives. This is freakin business 101 - chase too many rabbits and you catch none of them. Build a killer secure, enterprise managable, wireless email device and once you master that, then waste time building stupid stuff like the Foleo. If Microsoft can't provide the solution tools on the server side, buy or build what you need. There is billions of dollars to be had here. Execute a business plan Palm, execute!!

    RIM is making serious headwind in the consumer market with the Pearl and has gained 12% additional market share in one year. Treo is loosing at it's own consumer game.

    Also, sh1t or get off the pot. Build a new mobile OS that will cater to the enterprise or completely commit to WM - doing both does not work. See my point about Foleo. You can't do everything. You (Palm) are and you are failing.


    Well said. It's STILL difficult to understand how Palm literally gave away the multi-billion dollar corporate email market to RIM. Even today, with a better (all-in-one) software package - e.g. making Chatteremail the default Treo email client + providing clear instructions on setting it up - and some non-stealth advertising - Palm could still grab a decent share of the email market from RIM. For years RIM has had horrible hardware and merely acceptable software. Palm should have been able to leverage the Treo and squash RIM a long time ago. Now that RIM is making marginally better hardware and the iPhone and sexy little Sony Ericsson phones are cannibalizing Palm's consumer segment, what is left for Palm? Oh I know: Palm will dominate the massive $600 crippled Linux pseudolaptop market, right?

    What Palm needed 3 years ago was a 3 pronged Treo approach:
    - Traditional Treo form factor with bullet-proof stability and solid email management out of the box for corporate clients and consumers alike.
    - An iPhone-sized PDA/smartphone hybrid (imagine a Sony CLIE TH55 that also worked as a cell phone).
    - A Centro (or smaller) sized cheap smartphone with a regular dialpad + T9 instead of a QWERTY keyboard.

    This isn't rocket science. Palm would have had the important bases covered with such a lineup in 2005-6. Instead, we've seen the distraction of the Foleo result in the Treos not being meaningfully updated since Handspring (not Palm) brought the Treo 600 to market in 2003. What a waste.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    ...It's STILL difficult to understand how Palm literally gave away the multi-billion dollar corporate email market to RIM.
    Simple, it's not the handset which provides push email. It's RIM's network of BES (Blackberry enterprise servers) across the world, which provides bulletproof corporate email. Palm's not in that business, nor has any expertise in that. RIM's protocols are proprietary and powerful (not push-imap etc).

    This is why RIM sold 2.4 million Blackberries vs Palm's 750,000 (all-time high) Treos last quarter. Treos lack a killer app.
    Last edited by cinealta; 08/27/2007 at 07:42 PM.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Simple, it's not the handset which provides push email. It's RIM's network of BES (Blackberry enterprise servers) across the world, which provides bulletproof corporate email. Palm's not in that business, nor has any expertise in that. RIM's protocols are proprietary and powerful (not push-imap etc).

    This is why RIM sold 2.4 million Blackberries vs Palm's 750,000 (all-time high) Treos last quarter. Treos lack a killer app.
    Exactly, RIM was a kick-a$$ APP looking for a PHONE and now they have that. Palm just didn't see that coming or coming soon enough. Frankly, they should have teamed up with MSFT a long time ago to make a competitive product. While Chatter might be a great product, it is not industrial strength BES.
  15.    #35  
    Right on . . but for Palm "we are not in that business (of software)" is the nail in the coffin for Palm. They need an end-to-end enterprise solution. Buy or build it doesn't matter. Perhaps Palm should have bought Good instead of Motorola. Treo has the best device - they need the software.

    There is still room for another dominant player in the corporate e-mail world but it is getting harder and harder to do everyday as RIM makes more and more advances.




    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Simple, it's not the handset which provides push email. It's RIM's network of BES (Blackberry enterprise servers) across the world, which provides bulletproof corporate email. Palm's not in that business, nor has any expertise in that. RIM's protocols are proprietary and powerful (not push-imap etc).

    This is why RIM sold 2.4 million Blackberries vs Palm's 750,000 (all-time high) Treos last quarter. Treos lack a killer app.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by crabkilla View Post
    Treo has the best device - they need the software.
    You're right. But Palm management are advertising execs, not technologists. No vision, imagineering, dream weaving etc. Evolutionary engineering philosophy only.
  17.    #37  
    Hmmmm . . . I guess I was right. Screw the Foleo!!!

    New Strategy should be:

    1. Gotta be a hardware and software play. Apple has taught use that good hardware people make software.
    2. New Linux OS that revolves around enterprise management - email, deployment, security, etc. Keep current design, improve screen, make thinner, etc. Bring search to the mobile device. Be able to search entire Exchange mail box from mobile device.
    3. Buy or build (maybe license) push e-mail infrastructure - hosted (SaaS) or in-house server. Focus on enterprise e-mail and MS Exchange connectivity (calendar, tasks, notes, contacts) with the ability to accept meeting requests, etc.
    4. Master enterprise environment first and only then get into consumer space with low cost solution.
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    #38  
    I give up. When Palm pushed the Linux phone yet again and came out with Foleo and a cheap phone instead of something new I gave up. Ten years we've used only Palms and Treos. But it was time for something new.

    We looked at the iPhone. Slick design but much is missing. Maybe in a generation or two? No gps, no pdfs can be stored on the device and the key board was a pain. I don't like that you can't write applications for it either. ( online ajax is so not acceptable )

    We looked at Helio. Loved that gps but no applications except games.

    We're trying out HTC Moguls now. I love it. There are things I miss. Screen resolution leaves much to be desired. No built in silent ringer for people not on your call list. Still no usable gps. Why is it gps can go in cheap phones but not smart phones? The today screen is nice, I love that it checks for email for me and posts a count on the front screen. I love switching between apps and the large keyboard.

    If Palm gets its act together and comes out with a smart phone that does something new, has gps and wifi and a decent screen size and resolution I'll be interested.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by ljcobb View Post
    Why is it gps can go in cheap phones but not smart phones?
    Somewhat OT,yet relevant...

    I mentioned this in another thread re: GPS. I take it your with Sprint? They use aGPS in their phones so you can pay for TeleNav ($10/month). With WM devices, there is no API, meaning Sprint doesn't have any software to sell you...yet. At phonescoop.com, Chris Price mentioned Sprint is almost done with this and it will be on their future WM devices.

    In short, Sprint and Verizon would much rather sell you a GPS subscription then allow you to use your own GPS software (or even the free Google Maps/Live Search).

    It's all about $$$ for them.

    Just read this: Sprint Threatens Mobile GMaps over GPS.

    Verizon gets around this by not even having Java on a lot of handsets (they use BREW, total walled garden).

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    #40  
    I agree. Bored with their product line. If Iphone had gone 3g, I would have bailed. Right now its either 3g iphone or wimax treo. Whoever comes out next will win a lot of people on the fence right now....
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