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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I never understood this implication.
    Agreed. Foleo is a good long-term strategy, IMO.

    Eventually, in the next 5-10 years (which is not a long time when you consider when Apple started making its comeback), people will transition to Google-style/web & cloud-based apps, as opposed to dedicated installs of individual software programs. That way, wherever they are (car, airport, vacation, gym) they can access their data. Regardless of if there data is stored on their home desktop computer, or in a fortified Iron Mountain, decentralized redundant server array.

    Foleo will be well-positioned to access this space. Why carry a $2,000 fully-featured laptop, and purchase multiple site licenses of software titles, when you can have one master copy of your data, and access from a 4 lb, $400, almost disposable, ultra-mobile notebook? Corporations will especially go for this.

    Synchronization is the killer-app for this. Unfortunately, Foleo won't even sync with the Treo 680 at this time.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Agreed. Foleo is a good long-term strategy, IMO.

    Eventually, in the next 5-10 years (which is not a long time when you consider when Apple started making its comeback), people will transition to Google-style/web & cloud-based apps, as opposed to dedicated installs of individual software programs. That way, wherever they are (car, airport, vacation, gym) they can access their data. Regardless of if there data is stored on their home desktop computer, or in a fortified Iron Mountain, decentralized redundant server array.

    Foleo will be well-positioned to access this space. Why carry a $2,000 fully-featured laptop, and purchase multiple site licenses of software titles, when you can have one master copy of your data, and access from a 4 lb, $400, almost disposable, ultra-mobile notebook? Corporations will especially go for this.

    Synchronization is the killer-app. Unfortunately, the Foleo won't even sync with the Treo 680 at this time.
    Which makes a Foleo + Wimax device very desirable, imo. But I imagine that would have to wait till v2, unless there is some other way.

    Actually, probably a wimax Treo? ;-)

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Which makes a Foleo + Wimax device very desirable, imo. But I imagine that would have to wait till v2, unless there is some other way.
    Precisely. The chipset is already available (Intel multi-band WiMAX/WiFi Connection 2300). Coupled with Sprint's ambitious rollout of WiMAX this year, Palm could kill it if they built this into v1. Ink a deal with Google for Google Apps synchronization out-of-the box, and Palm's market value would sky-rocket.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by robkz View Post
    Its like producing a great selling car (the Porsche Boxter for example). A car that literally saved porsche from bankruptcy. But they choose to go 10 years with only adding heated seats one year, then automatic windows, then keyless entry the following year etc.
    I thought that was what the Cayman brought into the line? Wouldn't a new POS II/Linux full-size Treo be the equivalent of a Cayman S?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Precisely. The chipset is already available (Intel multi-band WiMAX/WiFi Connection 2300). Coupled with Sprint's ambitious rollout of WiMAX this year, Palm could kill it if they built this into v1. Ink a deal with Google for Google Apps synchronization out-of-the box, and Palm's market value would sky-rocket.
    lol, we should both work for Palm. I was thinking the same thing...

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Agreed. Foleo is a good long-term strategy, IMO.

    Eventually, in the next 5-10 years (which is not a long time when you consider when Apple started making its comeback), ...

    Synchronization is the killer-app for this. Unfortunately, Foleo won't even sync with the Treo 680 at this time.
    Apple was never really a dying company. Struggling for awhile, yes. They always made a solid product that had a niche product with a small but steady market share. Those who used it, loved it. They didn't need to constantly complain while waiting for a fix.

    Palm is NOT like Apple. Palm has released multiple defective devices, has not stood behind their products and has been near silent in their communications. Their latest device is being held back because it doesn't do the main thing that it is supposed to do.

    Reputation is everything. There's an old saying: It takes 5 "ata boys" to make up for 1 "oops." Well, Palm has a bunch of "oops" on their plate these days. Even if Palm releases a new great device, I would be hesitate to commit the money and another contract until they prove to me that they will stand behind it.

    The only reason I'm still with the Treo is that I have a lot of $ invested in software/accessories, and I'm under contract. BB does not have the software options I need. I will switch once Vz gets off their butts and releases the Mogul or i760. Either that, or I will switch to AT&T, get my wife a snappy iPhone and myself a Kaiser. HTC. Now, there's a company with innovation.
    Last edited by GalenMD; 08/23/2007 at 08:06 PM.
    Palm V --> Clie 610 --> Kyocera 7135 --> Treo 600 ("verizonfied") --> Treo 650 ("verizonfied") --> Vz Treo 700p -->AT&T Tilt
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I never understood this implication.

    It seems that the Foleo is a different business/department for them and they hired a new team to work on it. I'm not sure how that takes away resources from POS or WM. From what I understand, these departments are completely independent of each other.

    Do they need more POS programmers? Better ones? Or are they just really facing the limits of what that OS can/cannot do? (I think it's the latter).
    My thought was that the Linux developers they were hiring were almost certainly dedicated to the Foleo (at least this year) and they hadn't hired enough to do both the Foleo and Linux Treo. Given we've seen almost nothing but Access screenshots/rumors and virtually nothing from Palm itself wrt Linux other than a 2Q08 financial forecast, the implication is there for me that Foleo dev took priority for Palm's overall available resources.

    At a corporate level, they probably can't hire enough resources for both products while keeping Wall Street happy. It is possible the $325M funding was supposed to happen earlier in order to help do both product lines in parallel, but when that got delayed, something had to give.

    It's total conjecture, but seems conceivable they decided along the way to change course away from Access to WindRiver as the Linux source which also might have caused a delay. That would at least give them a common base for both Treo and Foleo although I'm not sure how they'd add a PalmOS layer on top of WindRiver if that is actually owned by Access. Writing emulation layers is not easy and given the age of POS, it's probably even more difficult to maintain app compatibility. That also might be more work than forecast, take more resources, cause further delay, etc.
    Palm Pilot-->Handspring Visor-->Treo 300-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p+E62-->Treo700p+Curve (8300)-->Curve (8330)
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomvb2000 View Post
    That would at least give them a common base for both Treo and Foleo although I'm not sure how they'd add a PalmOS layer on top of WindRiver if that is actually owned by Access. Writing emulation layers is not easy and given the age of POS, it's probably even more difficult to maintain app compatibility.
    True, won't be as simple as when Apple went from 680x0 to Unix kernel. These smartphone CPU's will likely bog down in emulation.

    Gotta go cold turkey and make a clean break. How about asking legacy developers to cut customers some slack by offering a free/nominal cross-grade to POS II/Linux versions?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by GalenMD View Post
    BB does not have the software options I need...Either that, or I will switch to AT&T, get my wife a snappy iPhone and myself a Kaiser. HTC. Now, there's a company with innovation.
    Yeah, the Kaiser looks solid. BTW, Skyscape titles are available for BB (unless you're talking about UpToDate?). Galen may have used a PDA, but I'm pretty sure Avicenna did not :-)
  10. #30  
    Thanks for the spelling correction. But, call it what you want, spell it how you want, I still tire of the mass negatives I read on this thread regarding the Treo.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Yeah, the Kaiser looks solid. BTW, Skyscape titles are available for BB (unless you're talking about UpToDate?). Galen may have used a PDA, but I'm pretty sure Avicenna did not :-)
    Hah!

    I use epocrates now, but I also need a good database program to keep track of my hospital billing. The iPhone does not yet have spreadsheets. Does the BB?

    How is Skyscape?

    Well, I guess this is really off-topic, but who cares? The Palm platform is dying anyway.
    Palm V --> Clie 610 --> Kyocera 7135 --> Treo 600 ("verizonfied") --> Treo 650 ("verizonfied") --> Vz Treo 700p -->AT&T Tilt
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Agreed. Foleo is a good long-term strategy, IMO.

    Eventually, in the next 5-10 years (which is not a long time when you consider when Apple started making its comeback), people will transition to Google-style/web & cloud-based apps, as opposed to dedicated installs of individual software programs. .
    While anything can happen in 5-10 years, haven't we heard the "all my data anywhere via a thin client" before? While the mobile network bandwidth will eventually make that more conceivable, it hasn't happened yet outside of corporate intranets running 100Gbps wired ethernet. On top of that, there is the security and cost of high-bandwidth mobile service. Will people spend $$ monthly to get access to data they could store for free on a laptop?

    Foleo will be well-positioned to access this space. Why carry a $2,000 fully-featured laptop, and purchase multiple site licenses of software titles, when you can have one master copy of your data, and access from a 4 lb, $400, almost disposable, ultra-mobile notebook? Corporations will especially go for this.
    I think it will depend on the corporation. For those with central IT, they are more concerned with everyone having exactly the same equipment to minimize their support overhead cost. They'd also want someone big enough to supply the hardware and handle maintenance returns. Palm isn't in that business and probably doesn't want to be.

    Ultra-mobile also brings out ITs paranoia from a security standpoint unless the machine is so locked down it's darn near useless. Sure, no data on the Foleo reduces the risk but the apps will not come from MS or Apple, so you've still got licenses to deal with not to mention potential file incompatibility.
    Palm Pilot-->Handspring Visor-->Treo 300-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p+E62-->Treo700p+Curve (8300)-->Curve (8330)
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomvb2000 View Post
    While anything can happen in 5-10 years, haven't we heard the "all my data anywhere via a thin client" before?...Will people spend $$ monthly to get access to data they could store for free on a laptop?...Sure, no data on the Foleo reduces the risk but the apps will not come from MS or Apple, so you've still got licenses to deal with not to mention potential file incompatibility.
    Touche, great points.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    True, won't be as simple as when Apple went from 680x0 to Unix kernel. These smartphone CPU's will likely bog down in emulation.
    I agree. Given POS is a cooperative, not premptive, multitasking OS, I'd expect each app to be given it's own local virtual machine in order to handle fixed addresses for app launch, etc. They might run as slow or slower as the worst Java apps do on my 700p

    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Gotta go cold turkey and make a clean break. How about asking legacy developers to cut customers some slack by offering a free/nominal cross-grade to POS II/Linux versions?
    Going cold turkey is a tough decision to make, but in the long run probably the best choice.

    For those who disagree, sure, there are a huge number of 3rd party apps for the POS, but how many of those do people run on their smartphones now? The PDA was great for mobile data entry apps (among many other things), but that market is dried up.

    How many were done by individuals/2-3 person companies that Palm might consider "expendable" from a legacy/image view? If Palm wants to avoid that, they need to court the big (DataViz) and small (individual) developers and come out with an SDK asap along with tools to help people rewrite their apps for a new platform.
    Palm Pilot-->Handspring Visor-->Treo 300-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p+E62-->Treo700p+Curve (8300)-->Curve (8330)
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomvb2000 View Post
    If Palm wants to avoid that, they need to court the big (DataViz) and small (individual) developers and come out with an SDK asap along with tools to help people rewrite their apps for a new platform.
    True. Microsoft & Apple are both good at working with, and helping, their development partners.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Touche, great points.
    Thanks - I make them about as often as Palm releases new devices
    Palm Pilot-->Handspring Visor-->Treo 300-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p+E62-->Treo700p+Curve (8300)-->Curve (8330)
  17. #37  
    John, I also have a treo 650 and it is reasonably reliable, save for the occasional reset or two each day. But I'm not upgrading to another palm device. I don't see a reason to buy their phones.

    Is that being a crybaby or demanding that palm owes me something? No. There's simply nothing inspiring to upgrade to. That's just being honest, and I think Engadget's article pretty much said it.

    It seems that some are content with the way palm has stagnated themselves and would prefer no one say anything ill of them.
    I think that's fascinating.

    Does palm owe us anything? Hmm. Well, they certainly owe their investors something, no? Do ya think they are happy?
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by cinealta View Post
    Gotta go cold turkey and make a clean break. How about asking legacy developers to cut customers some slack by offering a free/nominal cross-grade to POS II/Linux versions?
    I agree completely. This usually ends up being the best strategy in these situations. Look at Apple - they essentially went cold turkey and asked developers and users to make a few sacrifices here and there - tolerate emulated / sandboxed software, dual modes, etc. People put up with it while things matured and afterwards everyone reaped the advantages. They've done this three times, and it's worked every single time.

    Now look at Windows. MS resisted making a clean break in Vista because of "legacy" stuff (and general incompetence...) and it ends up being a barely compatible mess anyways. If you're going to have crappy compatibility anyway, then why put up with the gigantic problem of a rapidly aging OS?

    When you have to modernize very outdated OS, I think you should just drop it unless you have an amazing transitional strategy. I don't think Palm has it - hell, they can't even get a stupid D-pad controller to work the same across product updates.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I never understood this implication.

    It seems that the Foleo is a different business/department for them and they hired a new team to work on it. I'm not sure how that takes away resources from POS or WM. From what I understand, these departments are completely independent of each other.

    Do they need more POS programmers? Better ones? Or are they just really facing the limits of what that OS can/cannot do? (I think it's the latter).
    What you're saying makes sense, but think of it this way: let's say your house catches on fire. The fire spreads slowly. Everyone you know is yelling "FIRE! FIRE! You have a FIRE in there!! Call the fire department!!", and your response is "hmm, I'm not calling the fire department to put this fire out, it's moving slowly enough that I can live with it, but I would love to have a nice party in my house. I'll call a party planner and have a nice tea party".

    See, the fire will eventually burn the house down, and all your energy should IMMEDIATELY go towards putting the fire out and nothing should divert the focus of the whole household on that task. You could theoretically say that having the tea party doesn't make the fire burn faster, but it's obviously a completely insane set of priorities.

    The Treo is not some side business for Palm. Neglecting the Treo all the way to absolute obsolescence, like they have been doing, will kill Palm, and the Foleo will not save it.

    And this is not some weird space where the company has to invent some new market that doesn't exist or figure out where to go after they dominated their world - it's been very clear for a long time what the basic things they need to do are. Thousands of users, for years, everywhere, have been very vocal about what these things are. Few companies are fortunate enough to have the road to customer satisfaction so clearly outlined for them as Palm does.
  20. #40  
    Interesting that there was a quote by Walt Disney, and that there are comparisons to Steve J/Pixar/Apple... I see some similarities to Palm here.

    Disney has their fans who see nothing but pixiedust, and their less-fanatical enthusiasts who are not afraid to talk about their problems in hope that such discussion can prod, drag, or encourage the company back to the greatness it once had.

    Disney had quality and a special magic locked-up. People paid extra to tour their parks because they were not carnys and brought an innovative, extra-mile quality to the experience. But bean-counters cut back the quality here and there, slowed the innovation/renovation/and maintenence, and it evantually showed. The intangible of the experience sufferred.

    Michael Eiasner and his gang ticked off some in the film industry, including Steve Jobs who almost took Pixar to another studio when their contract was running out. Others didn't want to work with the Mouse any more.

    Mike E. "retires early", thanks perhaps to the "Save Disney" website by Walt's Nephew who had a revolt, and thanks to a lot of other factors, and all of a sudden Steve Jobs is selling Pixar to Disney, Lucas may update the Star Tours arrtraction, and Disney movies come to itunes. Quality reigns in the Parks once again, as Pixar's John Lassiter (a former Jungle Cruise Captain) oversees aspects of the theme parks. Nephew Roy Disney is back in good graces with the company he was basically forced out of, and some things are turning around.

    Could Palm learn a thing or two here? Could we?
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
    Should I buy a Handspring Visor instead?
    Got a Pre2! "It eats iPhones for Breakfast"!
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