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  1.    #1  
    well ?
    ...
    http://blog.cti-miami.com/pdf/HTC.pdf

    Whether or not you prefer a Treo to any of HTC's (myriad) of products, (at least) two points remain:

    1) HTC offers a wide range of designs, exploring much of the possible design space: keyboard/keyboard-less, Wifi/Wifi-less, GPS/GPS-less, candybar/flipphone, slider/no-slider, touchscreen/no-touchscreen, etc. And they seem to regularly innovate across the board. Palm has done neither in recent times...

    2) HTC regularly tells you (the market) what is coming in the future, so you can plan ahead, anticipate, etc. and mostly have confidence that HTC is working hard on something(s) good. Now if you are a known innovator with a strong reputation, like Apple, perhaps that is not needed. But Palm now has such a *poor* record for innovation and *poor* record for pleasant surprises (e.g. the Fukeo), that they are in dire need for showing some positive glimpse of the future, if they actually want a future...
  2. #2  
    For one, HTC is a global company who only made other people's products for a long time, only in the last year have they "branded" themselves as a stand-alone. I'm sure they learned a thing or two when making other people's devices, ahem.

    For all the HTC devices that are technically "out there" we only get the Dash, Mogul and Wing here in the U.S. Once again, the carriers control what devices get here and which don't. So although HTC has the really nice Kaiser, what good is it for us here? Sure we could buy "unlocked" and go that route if you are on GSM, but that's beside the point.

    The Mogul just came out and is already out-dated compared to the new Kaiser. Dash came with no 3g. The Wing is just...ugh.

    Palm meanwhile only has about 1,200 employees, so they work on a much smaller scale.

    True, Palm can "innovate" more and unless you don't actually pay attention here, they appear to have a new smartphone (gandolf) and a high-end smartphone (vincent) line-up in the works; so they are diversifying. The same can be said about the huge company Motorola. The Q was okay, but Q q9? That's it? So the same can be said about Moto as they can't even turn a profit in the phone business.

    Plus Palm have the linux-based POSII coming in 2008. So it's not like they are not doing anything. You can argue about the pacing, but this stuff takes time in the U.S. with FCC, carrier approvals and having orders.

    I'd also suggest that they badly want their own OS and hardware combo like Apple. They used to have this with the Garnet/Treo line, but do to re-organizing of the company (loosing control on Garnet; gaining it back finally), development of a new OS, etc. they are playing catch up. I would think only in the last few months has Palm re-started as a full company once again--but it'll take time for them to roll out a new OS, phone line-up etc. So check back again in a year and see if it's better or worse.

    Finally, don't count the Foleo out either. Just b/c it's not for you doesn't mean it can't turn into a profitable business. Only after 12-18 months on the market will we know the Foleo's fate (and nice use of the childish name-mocking) .

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  3. #3  
    After 12-18 months, I predict you'll only have heard about sporadic interest in the foleo.

    There will be some who will buy the thing, but there will not be many.

    Palm will have to hustle at that point to return focus to their smartphones for better profitability. The foleo project may turn up mild profits at best, but I have a strong feeling it will instead turn up losses or merely break even for the company. I'm sure we'll hear talk from colligan about the need to "rebalance" palm's business pursuits and priorities at that point.

    While I'm sure some will defend it here, I don't think the foleo - at least at this embryonic stage - will make any real impact in the market at all on the market.

    For that device to be successful, there has to be much more onboard - more robust web browser, more versatile media capabilities to name just a few.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    well ?
    ...
    http://blog.cti-miami.com/pdf/HTC.pdf

    Whether or not you prefer a Treo to any of HTC's (myriad) of products, (at least) two points remain:

    1) HTC offers a wide range of designs, exploring much of the possible design space: keyboard/keyboard-less, Wifi/Wifi-less, GPS/GPS-less, candybar/flipphone, slider/no-slider, touchscreen/no-touchscreen, etc. And they seem to regularly innovate across the board. Palm has done neither in recent times...

    2) HTC regularly tells you (the market) what is coming in the future, so you can plan ahead, anticipate, etc. and mostly have confidence that HTC is working hard on something(s) good. Now if you are a known innovator with a strong reputation, like Apple, perhaps that is not needed. But Palm now has such a *poor* record for innovation and *poor* record for pleasant surprises (e.g. the Fukeo), that they are in dire need for showing some positive glimpse of the future, if they actually want a future...
    Well, the F*keo certainly turned out to be an interesting surprise.

    Anyway, I am sure HTC would rather not pre-announce their devices, but they leak like a sieve, so I'm not sure I would give them credit for that.

    Re Palm exploring more form factors and technologies - I agree they should, but I believe they thought they had found the perfect form factor in the Treo, and cant imagine using anything else. I think this is related to their leadership, who also happen to be their product designers, and is probably an ego thing.

    I also believe they held back their WM devices so that they appear roughly equivalent to PalmOS devices (e.g. no WIFI) but that this is due to change, as they are outsourcing their design work to WM ODM's, so we should soon see a flood of WM devices that are less Palm but hopefully also more industry standard technology wise.

    Surur
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    For one, HTC is a global company who only made other people's products for a long time, only in the last year have they "branded" themselves as a stand-alone. I'm sure they learned a thing or two when making other people's devices, ahem.

    ...

    The Mogul just came out and is already out-dated compared to the new Kaiser. Dash came with no 3g. The Wing is just...ugh.
    Hmmm... I'm curious why do you say that HTC is a global company and seemingly implying that Palm is not? What is considered a "global" company? That they sell their products in many places?

    HTC is a Taiwanese company and while I know they have been the OEM for many brands in the past, a check on their Taiwan website tells me they started in 1997. Palm has been around much longer and they are "global" too since I hold a Treo and I am not American nor stays anywhere near the US.

    So saying that "HTC is a global company making lots of devices = better than Palm" is an excuse and not a reason for Palm for not coming out with pda-phones that we want. There have been many excuses made for Palm by their long-suffering fans and I think it's time we should just stop and admit the inevitable.

    I have made the switch from my beloved Treo 650 to a Dopod 838pro/HTC Tytn as I can't wait for Palm to give me 3G/HSPDA Palm OS Treo with Wifi, better camera and touch-screen. What's worse is that I don't even get the 700p or 755p since Palm only has the 680 for the GSM world. At least the HTC devices get a chance to be out-dated by something better in the pipeline... My Treo 650 is already fossilised and I still have nothing in sight.

    I am still a fan of the Palm OS over WM5/6 and nothing would make me happier than to switch back to Palm if they can give me a 3G/HSPDA Treo with all the things I want. Sadly, i'm not sure that's going to come out anytime soon. Gandalf is again not an upgrade for me (no touchscreen??)... I'm not even sure Palm will make one for the GSM markets.

    I don't care much for the Foleo and I don't understand why Palm can't do the Foleo and a newer/better Palm OS Treos in tandem since both are different devices. I also don't understand why Palm can't just give me 3G/HSPDA, wifi and better camera in a Palm Treo since the hardware and technology are there. I don't even care if they can't squeeze these into a slimmer form factor as I like the current size. If any slimmer, it may not be comfortable to hold and I need a mini, micro or nano SD card.
    Last edited by mojoe73; 07/18/2007 at 06:06 AM.
  6. #6  
    As a new 700wx owner, I know that Palm is on the right track. This device just works, and comes with more available RAM than just about any other WM5 device. It makes a HUGE difference in usability. I was among many who delcared the fall of Palm when the 700w was first announced, but they have shown that they can make a competitive device in the WM universe.

    Variety would be nice and as Surur said, it appears they are going down that road. I can't wait to see what they have for us next. Every time I use the wx, I wonder, "what would this device do if it had the HARDWARE of some of those HTC devices?" We should find out soon.
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by mojoe73 View Post
    Hmmm... I'm curious why do you say that HTC is a global company and seemingly implying that Palm is not? What is considered a "global" company? That they sell their products in many places?
    It's more about where they are based rather than where you can buy their products. HTC have major offices in Asia, America and Europe whereas Palm is really only in the US. They do have offices elsewhere but I think they are only token offices and aren't involved in the development of their products.
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    As a new 700wx owner, I know that Palm is on the right track. This device just works, and comes with more available RAM than just about any other WM5 device. It makes a HUGE difference in usability. I was among many who delcared the fall of Palm when the 700w was first announced, but they have shown that they can make a competitive device in the WM universe.

    Variety would be nice and as Surur said, it appears they are going down that road. I can't wait to see what they have for us next. Every time I use the wx, I wonder, "what would this device do if it had the HARDWARE of some of those HTC devices?" We should find out soon.
    Amen on the WX. I did a soft reset on mine last night because I thought "boy, it's been weeks since I've done one. iNav, PIE, Messaging, and several other apps have been in memory since ???" The 750 is pretty nice as well. It makes you wonder why there's no touting of "We can talk and be online at the same time."

    Again, with new Apple/iPod management and design personnel now at Palm, pressure from investors to see changes and a fresh infusion of cash, I excited about what the future may hold for Palm. The iPhone deal with ATT *may* help to give others like Palm more breathing room iwith the carriers in determining device feature sets. Sprint, historically, wouldn't even sell more than one device with wifi. Navigation subscription$ for the carriers have even limited the availability of devices with full integrated gps in the US. Nonetheless, I believe good things will come.
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  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by TazUk View Post
    It's more about where they are based rather than where you can buy their products. HTC have major offices in Asia, America and Europe whereas Palm is really only in the US. They do have offices elsewhere but I think they are only token offices and aren't involved in the development of their products.

    But isn't that another excuse? It doesn't really matter where they have their offices or how many right? I mean, most companies' R&D are likely to be in only a few places and not all... and we are in the internet age... there shouldn't be geographical barriers. I believe Victoria's Secrets doesn't have an office where I live and it doesn't really stop me... oops.. my wife I mean... ...

    If anything, it means they have less overheads to support.
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    #10  
    It gives an indication of a companies size, Palm is relatively small so therefore doesn't have the resources of say HTC, Motorolla, Samsung, Nokia, etc. Could they do more with the resources they have, possibly.
  11. #11  
    Too many suits trying to run the company from the top, that's Palm's the problem.

    If it wasn't for the SD card slot, I would have dumped my Treo a long time ago.
  12. #12  
    i have not read through the thread but i think the answer is quite easy;

    Palm and its engineers don't understand innovation.
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    i have not read through the thread but i think the answer is quite easy;

    Palm and its engineers don't understand innovation.
    How can they understand what they can't spell?
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  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by TazUk View Post
    It's more about where they are based rather than where you can buy their products. HTC have major offices in Asia, America and Europe whereas Palm is really only in the US. They do have offices elsewhere but I think they are only token offices and aren't involved in the development of their products.
    But these aforementioned HTC "offices" are sales/support centers. All the R&D is done in Taiwan. If number of offices worldwide is the key indicator to a company's global-ness (and I don't think it is), then I'd argue that Palm has more sales/support offices worldwide than HTC.

    HTC has about 5000 employees (5x that of Palm) but you have to take into account that a large percentage of them are manufacturing employees. However I'm pretty confident that HTC's 'engineer per number of products developed' metric is higher than Palm's.
  15. #15  
    The companies have a different history... that is how we got here, in 2007.

    Palm's management went off a cliff a while ago, but found a ray of hope when they purchased Handspring.

    HTC's building products left and right for many companies, understanding what it takes to make great products.

    Big issue for palm is when (not if) will HTC build a "treo" line of their own (well, HTC already has, I believe -- don't know if it was touch-screen or not though). Will Palm's name be strong enough to keep people with palm? Will sprint/verizon/ATT/T-mobile want the device to compete with the well-known Treo?

    I love my treo 700wx... best pda/phone on the market IMO. Could stand an upgrade to wm6, but I can't complain about the stability.
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  16. #16  
    HTC already has built a Treo-like phone. I am using it now rather than my 750. It is the Dash and is every bit as one-handed as my 650, 700wx, and 750 were. I have not found the lack of touchscreen a hindrance.

    If you figure this is HTC's first generation effort at a Treo-like device I'd say they did pretty well.
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    #17  
    Well considering that HTC manufacture the 750 for Palm they obviously can produce a Treo like device, the question is what's preventing them bringing out a rebadged 750. The most likely answer is they've signed an agreement with Palm not to.
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    #18  
    I know one thing, my Treo 750 is a dam sight better made than my Vario (HTC Wizard). Despite being uber careful with it, the paint on the metal has flaked off, the stylus won't stay in and the thing takes an age to boot up. You'd never guess HTC made the Treo 750
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers View Post
    HTC already has built a Treo-like phone. I am using it now rather than my 750. It is the Dash and is every bit as one-handed as my 650, 700wx, and 750 were. I have not found the lack of touchscreen a hindrance.

    If you figure this is HTC's first generation effort at a Treo-like device I'd say they did pretty well.
    Actually, the Dash is more a rip of the Moto Q than a Treo.

    Still, there are very few fronted-qwerty WM Pro devices out there.

    As far as the touchscreen or lack thereof: I didn't miss it too much on my Q but when I went back to the Treo, I appreciated it much more. I need it for editing and copying, just a lot easier for my needs.

    My prediction: no-touchscreen devices are going to be come less and less. WM Photon will really allow a huge range of devices so I think there will be a few non-touchscreens, but much fewer.

    As far as why HTC just doesn't make a re-branded Treo...I think copyright here may be an issue, lol.

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