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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodycape77 View Post
    Don't we see EVDO 3G on the 700P and 755P? So what the deal that they cant do it for GSM based phone because the last POS GSM phone released was the 680 and that suppose to be a entry level phone?
    IIRC, the issue that has been a problem with POS doing HSDPA is that the spec requires it to do data *and* voice at the same time. Likewise, EVDO (rev1) does not to voice and data at the same time, but EVDO (revA) does. But then we don't have any POS doing revA do we?

    Ultimately, any OS that will support simultaneous data and voice *must* *Must* *MUST* do proper preemptive thread-based multitasking. The cooperative multitasking model of FrankenGarnet won't do. This is the same transition MacOS made when it went from OS 9 to OS X 10.0. Deep inside I still have the smallest bit of hope that someone has been applying the Linux wasted on the Foleo (a glorified KVM appliance for the Treo) instead where we REALLY need it... on a Treo, running a user-focused OS that can actually do truly modern things. BRING US A LINUX-BASED TREO ALREADY, PALM!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    IIRC, the issue that has been a problem with POS doing HSDPA is that the spec requires it to do data *and* voice at the same time. Likewise, EVDO (rev1) does not to voice and data at the same time, but EVDO (revA) does. But then we don't have any POS doing revA do we?

    Ultimately, any OS that will support simultaneous data and voice *must* *Must* *MUST* do proper preemptive thread-based multitasking. The cooperative multitasking model of FrankenGarnet won't do. This is the same transition MacOS made when it went from OS 9 to OS X 10.0. Deep inside I still have the smallest bit of hope that someone has been applying the Linux wasted on the Foleo (a glorified KVM appliance for the Treo) instead where we REALLY need it... on a Treo, running a user-focused OS that can actually do truly modern things. BRING US A LINUX-BASED TREO ALREADY, PALM!
    They will. It shall be known as Palmsux, and all will be good in the land again.

    Sorry...just couldn't resist. I'm afraid Palm is goinig the way of Osborne, Kaypro and the rest of the CP/M community. They (dinosaurs) ruled the earth at the beginning of computing, and were eliminated by nimble little creatures. HTC, Samsung, Moto and others have eaten away at Palm's lead, and Apple will soon add another nail in the coffin. I wonder if the dinosaurs knew they were freezing to death?
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  3. fishera's Avatar
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    #23  
    a lot of my friends want treo's... but can bust out the $399 for unlocked 680's.

    if they could get a Treo 5xx for $199 unlocked with a version of the Palm OS, they'd be happy! Its the threaded TXT messaging they're after. razr converts! lol
    Aaron M. Fisher
    CEO of Sonicfish Consulting
    www.SonicfishConsulting.com

    PDA/ Smartphones:
    Handspring Visor> Sony Clie SL10> Nokia N-Gage> Nokia 3300b> Treo 600> Treo 650> Treo 680> Nokia e71> Apple iPhone 3G> Palm Pre+
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss View Post
    They will. It shall be known as Palmsux, and all will be good in the land again.

    Sorry...just couldn't resist. I'm afraid Palm is goinig the way of Osborne, Kaypro and the rest of the CP/M community. They (dinosaurs) ruled the earth at the beginning of computing, and were eliminated by nimble little creatures. HTC, Samsung, Moto and others have eaten away at Palm's lead, and Apple will soon add another nail in the coffin. I wonder if the dinosaurs knew they were freezing to death?
    (Cue Homer voice). "Mmmm. Dinosaurs."

    The analogy is apt. Palm's niche in the food chain has been slowly nibbled away by others.

    More competitors mean lower margins. That means less money in the till at Palm to hide systemic problems.

    More competitors means that each competitor can appeal to a micro-niche and take away sales volume at the margin from Palm. Sidekick takes away a certain crowd. Blackberry takes away another crowd. Etc. Fewer unit sales makes it more important to hit the jackpot on a product in order to recoup R & D and absorb administrative overhead.

    Each new competitor means that a competitive advantage Palm previously held alone is now held by Palm plus someone else. The last bastion of Palm strength was/is ease of use. With Apple's entry into the market this one falls. Now there are two "ease of use" competitors in the marketplace, further diluting Palm's position. Plus, Windows gets better with time. Even Microsoft learns.

    This is a situation where a dam slowly but inexorably erodes. All of us have watched looking for the press release announcing Palm's death. But in fact Mr. Darwin's principles are working quite nicely here and Palm's death is inevitable.

    I said it elsewhere. I will say it again. Palm is populated by bright, well intentioned people. If you ask them they will tell you they have given their jobs 100% of their efforts. But Palm's BEST ideas and its HARDEST work and its MOST creative thinking got them to this place.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers View Post
    ... The last bastion of Palm strength was/is ease of use. With Apple's entry into the market this one falls.
    While I tend to agree with this statement, one also needs to acknowledge that iPhone and Treo are mostly apples and oranges (hmm... kind of like Palm's logo ). iPhone simply isn't a smartphone, but it is true that some people who would otherwise flock to Treo for chic will instead prefer iPhone. Functionally though it's no contest, really. If Apple opened the door to native app development, iPhone would almost certainly blow Treo out of the water. But as with so many things, we rarely get all of what we want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers View Post
    ... Plus, Windows gets better with time. Even Microsoft learns.
    Not if IE7 or Vista are any indicator. (sorry, just couldn't resist). People (including myself) seem to be actively turning off functions in these bloatware products to avoid "features to help you" that Microsoft added.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers View Post
    This is a situation where a dam slowly but inexorably erodes. All of us have watched looking for the press release announcing Palm's death. But in fact Mr. Darwin's principles are working quite nicely here and Palm's death is inevitable.
    I totally agree. You might also call it entropy or complacence. They started pushing out slight variations and told us they were new. The ultimate example of which is Foleo, which may be novel in a few respects... but not in ways important to most of us and not in a product that we really wanted to see innovated (like Treo).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers View Post
    I said it elsewhere. I will say it again. Palm is populated by bright, well intentioned people. If you ask them they will tell you they have given their jobs 100% of their efforts. But Palm's BEST ideas and its HARDEST work and its MOST creative thinking got them to this place.
    Well, this does gloss over the fact that some really **** poor management decisions (OS yo-yo, WM push, off/on/off/on/ad nauseum on Linux development, launch products with low demand) have gotten them there too. I would say that you can't necessarily succeed without all of vision, talent, and business smarts... but a serious lack of any one of them can ultimately (if slowly) sink you.

    This is hardly new. How many times has Apple been at the brink? All it takes is a confluence of factors to get things back on track. If Palm has a real hunger and a desire to make it work, I bet they could. The question is whether throwing money and a new board member at the problem can really fix things.

    Getting back onto topic, somewhat, I'd say that if a 5xx is their example of how to innovate and stand out then I'm not feeling hopeful. I want to see truly new and innovative stuff. Heck, their CUSTOMERS have been throwing great ideas at them for ages... Too bad they can seem to deliver on the things customers so desperately hunger for.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by fishera View Post
    a lot of my friends want treo's... but can bust out the $399 for unlocked 680's.

    if they could get a Treo 5xx for $199 unlocked with a version of the Palm OS, they'd be happy! Its the threaded TXT messaging they're after. razr converts! lol
    it's true - simple things like the threaded TMs - we tkae for granted as experienced Treo users, but soemone who was unwilling to spend the mony we have would love this device.

    the problem is they will all get the unstability and agrivation we have gotten - similr to the numerous problems the moto Q had - that will push them away quickly.


    in the end, no matter what price level, the dame thing has to work.
    da Gimp

    Please note: My spelling sucks and I'm to lazy to check it.
  7. #27  
    Hawkins has his head buried deep. The Foleo, and now they're talking keyboard-less Treos? (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/0...rd-less-treos/)

    Unless the new linux OS is coming out with a brand new interface, I don't know how this is going to work.

    Version 2 of the Iphone is going to be the Palm killer unless something radically different happens. Palm is rapidly approaching the end if they don't stop with the meaningless model upgrades and out-of-date specs on their devices. Steve has already announced an SDK kit that will be released with the Iphone, so it's only a short matter of time before we start seeing apps for it. With a pared-down version of OS X under the hood, the Iphone is a smartphone for all intents and purposes and could possibly be my next phone. I've been a Palm fan for a long time, but they just aren't the company they used to be.
    Palm Pilot -> Palm IIIX -> Tungsten T3 -> Treo 700p -> Palm Pre
  8. braj's Avatar
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    #28  
    There's an SDK for native apps or are you talking about Safari-based web apps? (which is a totally different beast altogether)

    IF the iPhone opens up to 3rd party devs with native apps, I'll definitely jump ship when 3G is available. That is unless Palm pulls a rabbit out of a hat.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by adjmcloon View Post
    Hawkins has his head buried deep. The Foleo, and now they're talking keyboard-less Treos? (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/0...rd-less-treos/)
    Well, if I remember various interviews correctly, the idea is that if you have a full-size keyboard and display on a PDA companion (like, ohmigosh, the Foleo) then you don't really need the fancy touch display and keyboard on the smartphone. I think they way he actually said it was "this will free us from the tradeoffs that have been inherent in smartphone design up until now" (sic). Yes, the displays and keyboards we love were really "tradeoffs". haha Me? I'd consider carrying two devices a worse tradeoff, but I guess that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by adjmcloon View Post
    ... Steve has already announced an SDK kit that will be released with the Iphone, so it's only a short matter of time before we start seeing apps for it. With a pared-down version of OS X under the hood, the Iphone is a smartphone for all intents and purposes and could possibly be my next phone. ...
    Well, "SDK" might have been too strong a description. By SDK, he actually meant web applications; using Web 2.0 and Ajax, but accessed by and running within Safari. In other words: web apps. Up to now, there is no expressed intent to allow anyone other than apple to write native applications for the platform.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by braj View Post
    IF the iPhone opens up to 3rd party devs with native apps, I'll definitely jump ship when 3G is available. That is unless Palm pulls a rabbit out of a hat.
    You and me both. How could Apple have blundered that so badly? argh!

    And don't you mean pull a PENGUIN out of a hat?
  11. TazUk's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by KStewart View Post
    "Curse you" say the Europeans...mobile fashion is important to them. They are cell phone fanatics.
    Yep us Europeans are all the same and have exactly the same views
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by TazUk View Post
    Yep us Europeans are all the same and have exactly the same views
    I hear they taste great with chocolate sauce too!
  13. #33  
    When the Zire came out I thought Palm was doomed. Who would want a 2M ram B/W device with 180x180 resolution? But Palm sold jillions of them. I really do think they know their market and if they are not under the constraints of clueless owners they can succeed. Unfortunately WE are not the main market. We are the crazies out in left field who USE the things all day every day and push the limits.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by michael1 View Post
    When the Zire came out I thought Palm was doomed. Who would want a 2M ram B/W device with 180x180 resolution? But Palm sold jillions of them. I really do think they know their market and if they are not under the constraints of clueless owners they can succeed. Unfortunately WE are not the main market. We are the crazies out in left field who USE the things all day every day and push the limits.
    i like that - "crazies"
    da Gimp

    Please note: My spelling sucks and I'm to lazy to check it.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by michael1 View Post
    We are the crazies out in left field who USE the things all day every day and push the limits.
    I couldn't agree more.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by michael1 View Post
    When the Zire came out I thought Palm was doomed. Who would want a 2M ram B/W device with 180x180 resolution? But Palm sold jillions of them. ...
    Well, I've said it before, and I'll say it again... people are sheep. baaah!

    People I know who purchased these usually did so because they wanted something functional but cute. As someone else in this thread alluded to, they were style devices. Funny you really didn't see them very long (and certainly not any more). But oh how owners of Treo 600's continue to keep a death grip on them rather than upgrade to newer problem-plagued devices.

    Cheap == commodity == fashion/trend-driven == sheep bait

    Sure it may get you some volume, but with even thinner margins that you get on smartphones these days, and without providing any real innovation. If Palm is about improving the experience and pushing the boundaries of the technology -- after all, just look at the Foleo! (oh wait, maybe that wasn't a good example...) -- then bargain basement really doesn't seem the right place to go. YMMV.
  17. #37  
    Yeah, but now, the Iphone is changing things. The interface is slick as hell, and other than that virtual keyboard and as-yet unsupported 3rd party development, they have the perfect device. Bluetooth 2.0, 2 megapixel camera, wi-fi, and I love the automatic screen orientation. The apps look amazing too.

    Palm better step up, because version 1 of the Iphone is arguably as good as the 755. I mean, email, web, audio and video support, contacts, etc. I'm not wanting too much more here, Apple. Just give me some 3rd party options and I will love you forever.

    I'm with you, Taroli. Who in their right mind would consider having to carry 2 devices better than integrating everything into one smartphone? Somebody take the bong away from Jeff Hawkins, and quick.
    Palm Pilot -> Palm IIIX -> Tungsten T3 -> Treo 700p -> Palm Pre
  18. braj's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by adjmcloon View Post
    Somebody take the bong away from Jeff Hawkins, and quick.
    Don't blame the Foleo on pot, it's obvious he's been smoking crack.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by taroliw View Post
    IIRC, the issue that has been a problem with POS doing HSDPA is that the spec requires it to do data *and* voice at the same time. Likewise, EVDO (rev1) does not to voice and data at the same time, but EVDO (revA) does. But then we don't have any POS doing revA do we?

    Ultimately, any OS that will support simultaneous data and voice *must* *Must* *MUST* do proper preemptive thread-based multitasking. The cooperative multitasking model of FrankenGarnet won't do. This is the same transition MacOS made when it went from OS 9 to OS X 10.0. Deep inside I still have the smallest bit of hope that someone has been applying the Linux wasted on the Foleo (a glorified KVM appliance for the Treo) instead where we REALLY need it... on a Treo, running a user-focused OS that can actually do truly modern things. BRING US A LINUX-BASED TREO ALREADY, PALM!
    According to ACCESS, "FrankenGarnet" is preemptive: http://www.access-company.com/develo...s.html#1046570

    It may be that there were/are a few "issues" with the kernel's implementation, but it does appear that the PalmOS is preemptive.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    According to ACCESS, "FrankenGarnet" is preemptive: http://www.access-company.com/develo...s.html#1046570

    It may be that there were/are a few "issues" with the kernel's implementation, but it does appear that the PalmOS is preemptive.
    Now read that second paragraph more carefully (emphasis mine):

    In this version of the Palm OS, there is only one user interface application running at a time. The User Interface Application Shell (UIAS) is responsible for managing the current user-interface application. The UIAS launches the current user-interface application as a subroutine and doesn't get control back until that application quits. When control returns to the UIAS, the UIAS immediately launches the next application as another subroutine. See "Power Management Calls" for more information.
    So maybe the kernel is capable of it, but if the rest of the OS doesn't implement it then who cares? I guess the other thing I should have pointed out in my earlier note was that there is also no memory protection. This all results in a situation where applications can crash and/or hang the device of their own accord... which should hardly be a surprise to anyone who's used FrankenGarnet.
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