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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Missed this before I posted the above. So you reckon that they won't use pixel doubling (pixel one-and-a-halfing? ) for the menu and scroll bars too? Grateful if you could explain why you think they won't.
    .
    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb278115.aspx

    This page here has a table (table 4) of the various resolutions and the corresponding dpi. Maybe some-one versed in graphics can interpret it?

    Surur
  2. #22  
    Your answer is right there on that page:

    320x320 - 129 dpi
    240x320 / 320x240 - 96 dpi

    The dpi has been adjusted. Attached is a comparison of natural 320 dpi (96) (thanks Surur 2005) and current WM6 320 dpi (from Surur's link above, running in the emulator)

    --
    WM folk have been reducing DPIs now for years with VGA devices, so we'll surely find a way to make revert it to 96dpi should we want that. I don't mind the pixel adjusting as long as PIE has been fixed to not interfere with the size of web images.
    Attached Images Attached Images
  3. #23  
    While I'm still on the 700p, this just validates what I've been saying. Going forward, WM is just a more viable OS for adding new features. Microsoft had compatibility for Wifi cards on the very first day a WM Treo was released and on the same exact hardware of the wifi-less 700p. How many years has Palm been trying (or not trying) to do that? The answer: since it was printed on the 600's box at launch time.

    The major complaint people had with WM5 on the Treo was lack of 320x320. And remember that the lack of memory was Palm's decision. Don't blame that on WM. Microsoft listened and while they didn't deliver in WM5, they deliver at least in some way. They took care of the people who were screaming that they wouldn't upgrade until 320x320 was supported. It took less time then it has for Palm to release the 700p firmware fix we have been screaming for. A firmware update for more basic things like lag, text msg freezes, MP3 skips and implimenting Bluetooth. And I don't care what Palm tries to shovel about Bluetooth not being a true standard. If that were the case, how did they get it to work so reliably with the same Bluetooth devices on the 650?!? The answer is that they broke what worked with the Bluetooth standard. Period.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster View Post
    I don't mind the pixel adjusting as long as PIE has been fixed to not interfere with the size of web images.
    PIE in WM6 now has a high-resolution mode, in which graphics are not increased in size.

    http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2331/normalpb1.jpg

    http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/5235/highresfl8.jpg

    I don't know if its in all the PIE versions, or just the VGA ones.

    Surur
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster View Post
    Your answer is right there on that page:

    320x320 - 129 dpi
    240x320 / 320x240 - 96 dpi

    The dpi has been adjusted. Attached is a comparison of natural 320 dpi (96) (thanks Surur 2005) and current WM6 320 dpi (from Surur's link above, running in the emulator)

    --
    WM folk have been reducing DPIs now for years with VGA devices, so we'll surely find a way to make revert it to 96dpi should we want that. I don't mind the pixel adjusting as long as PIE has been fixed to not interfere with the size of web images.
    I think I follow, sort of. So menu bars will be only slightly smaller physically (as measured by a ruler) on a 320 x 320 screen than on a 240 x 240 screen of the same physical dimensions? More precisely, they will be 129/144 (0.896x) the height (to be the same height the dpi value would need to be 96 x 1.5 = 144)? I must say this is a very confusing use of the term dpi!
  6. #26  
    Just out of curiosity...would it be physically possible to flash a 700p with WM6 now that 320x320 is supported, or are there other physical differences inside that would make this impossible?

    Even if it were possible, I doubt we'd see such an option offered by Palm, though I suppose MS could see value in making it worth their while.

    Nevertheless, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a 320x320 WM6 Treo this year. Unless Palm is rethinking their move to WM6 now that they have more control over the Palm OS.

    I really wish MS had put more thought (and talent) into the WM5 redesign, though, because we seem to be stuck with some of the bad decisions that came out of that. The biggest one, IMO, is that they should have re-thought application-specific menus and provided a dedicated hard button for opening/closing an app-specific menu, rather than having it relegated to a soft button which has resulted in the majority of apps having to waste one of the precious two spots for "Menu".
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  7. #27  
    Well, now I'm playing the waiting game again. I picked up a 650 a few months ago on the cheap from Amazon, tired of waiting for the 750 with no definite release date imminent. I figured I would wait for the unlocked 750 and then pick one up since I don't really like the 650 a whole lot. The 650 has a beautiful screen, but it's unstable unstable unstable, and I'm not running one single piece of third-party software. Yes, I know y'all superpower users have many suggestions for how to correct that, but I'm not building custom roms or spending hours and hours playing around to get a device to work the way it should have out of the box. All things being equal, my old T600 was a better device at least when it was new before all the battery and buzzing problems.

    Anyway, back on topic, now I am playing the waiting game again because my ONLY reservation with switching to WM, the screen resolution, seems to have correction imminent. Knowing Palm, it will probably be over a year before they get a 320x320 WM6 750 on the market, but I can't buy a 240x240 WM5 750 now knowing that 320x320 WM6 750 is coming, unless of course it is DIRT cheap. So I guess I'll have to go on dealing with my 650's multiple daily resets for a little while...Hopefully, palm will pleasantly surprise me and release a 320x320 WM6 750 like, by late summer or early fall, but I doubt it. Palm is Palm.
  8. doc31's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    Just out of curiosity...would it be physically possible to flash a 700p with WM6 now that 320x320 is supported, or are there other physical differences inside that would make this impossible?

    Even if it were possible, I doubt we'd see such an option offered by Palm, though I suppose MS could see value in making it worth their while.

    Nevertheless, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a 320x320 WM6 Treo this year. Unless Palm is rethinking their move to WM6 now that they have more control over the Palm OS.

    I really wish MS had put more thought (and talent) into the WM5 redesign, though, because we seem to be stuck with some of the bad decisions that came out of that. The biggest one, IMO, is that they should have re-thought application-specific menus and provided a dedicated hard button for opening/closing an app-specific menu, rather than having it relegated to a soft button which has resulted in the majority of apps having to waste one of the precious two spots for "Menu".
    Regarding flashing a 700p into a WM. WM6 doesn't make it any easier to do this just because its support the current Palm OS res. If it could be done it could be done with WM5 the OS control the res.

    I really think we as consumer ask for too much sometimes and just set our selves up to be disappointed. IMO WM5 on the Treo has been the best update/adaptation I seen for it seen it was released. I love my 700P but w/ the updated RES and ability to multi-task I'm planning on jumping ship.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc31 View Post
    Regarding flashing a 700p into a WM. WM6 doesn't make it any easier to do this just because its support the current Palm OS res. If it could be done it could be done with WM5 the OS control the res.
    Yes, but the main point is that if somehow we were able to flash WM onto a 700p, it would make more sense to do so with WM6 since it supports 320x320 and WM5 does not.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    Interesting how so many pipe in with "I don't even notice the 240x240 resolution" then start the cheerleading when 360x360 becomes possible.
    So true. Just wait for the WM fanboys to do a 180 if they ever get anything over VGA resolution on a pdaphone. LOL
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    So true. Just wait for the WM fanboys to do a 180 if they ever get anything over VGA resolution on a pdaphone. LOL
    You do know about the VGA (640x480) phones out already and WVGA (800x480) PocketPC Phones at are coming out now, dont you?


    Surur
  12. mobidutch's Avatar
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    #32  
    If there is even going to be a RUMOR of a CDMA Treo with WM6 and a 320x320 screen, I will definitely skip the Samsung i760 and stick with the unbeatable keyboard form factor of the Treo!!
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    While I'm still on the 700p, this just validates what I've been saying. Going forward, WM is just a more viable OS for adding new features. Microsoft had compatibility for Wifi cards on the very first day a WM Treo was released and on the same exact hardware of the wifi-less 700p. How many years has Palm been trying (or not trying) to do that? The answer: since it was printed on the 600's box at launch time.

    The major complaint people had with WM5 on the Treo was lack of 320x320. And remember that the lack of memory was Palm's decision. Don't blame that on WM. Microsoft listened and while they didn't deliver in WM5, they deliver at least in some way. They took care of the people who were screaming that they wouldn't upgrade until 320x320 was supported. It took less time then it has for Palm to release the 700p firmware fix we have been screaming for. A firmware update for more basic things like lag, text msg freezes, MP3 skips and implimenting Bluetooth. And I don't care what Palm tries to shovel about Bluetooth not being a true standard. If that were the case, how did they get it to work so reliably with the same Bluetooth devices on the 650?!? The answer is that they broke what worked with the Bluetooth standard. Period.

    I like what this post says...all except his idea of what happened to bluetooth over WM. but I am amazed at all the theories i am hearing and can't help laughing at.

    Note: others have posted since I started my reply and have posted things above my post that were not here at the time of writing - Kudos guys

    Resolution support? all theses Hoorays! ??? - it's no different than your PC. You have only 240x240 support because the lcd module they use is only 240x240. OS will not support hardware that does not exist.

    Guys talking about flashing the ROM of their treo to WM6 for 320x320 support OMFG You don't have a 320x320 LCD module - Um sorry there are So many of you clamouring about that don't know what you are saying.

    A company that makes a device with a 240x240 Module will slap a loadout of WM 5 or 6 that only supports 240x240 because they don't have to add any more support. If they don't have to then why put it in the rom image. Why make the OS think about what it might be able to do versus telling it what it will do with what it has? Keeps things simple. If the device manufacturer spends the money you'll get a 320x320 screen it's that simple. if they don't...why spend more money on programming their OS loadout to support it.


    All the core testing you are reading and hearing about is being done first at HTPC. They are implementing the WM6 into NEW devices now, they are also testing Support(drivers) for 320x320 for the NEW modules that are being introduced. It's just like PC hardware, it's needs a driver to hit alpha phase and beta testing, etc. Current devices are also being tested on WM 6 as we see with the Axim line (which is a HTPC manufactured device) Dell however is testing existing models for upgradability. Palm has yet to indicate to my sources that they are testing on existing Devices. So I doubt we will see a release rom for the smartphone in your hand. Not one that will magically give a 240x240 lcd screen 320x320 resolution. That notion is just preposterous.

    Treo 650 has a better and more expensive LCD module than any of the models that have followed. It also has some higher quality components on it's board(ever since hardware B) - But at the time the LCD module lots were purchased for manufacturing they weren't so expensive because there was a surplus. We have had alot of disasters in the areas of the world that make these modules and components of these modules since the inception and manufacturing of the treo 650. Disasters that caused these surplusses to be destroyed.
    New 320x320 modules that could be considered in such devices as the 680 , 700, 750 models at the time of manufacturing were then cost prohibitive. You must also consider that the LCD module is one part of 3 as well. The control unit, the touchscreen and the display. This stuff isn't cheap.

    Manufacturers of LCD modules and their component parts, recoup losses after these disasters by hiking up their prices (remember they are sweat shops in pacifica that save more$$ by not having the right insurance to cover disaster loss). That in turn changes a device manufacturers options in the cost versus profit versus maximizing the products ability area. Use cheap screen + charge same price for expensive screen = more profit. Also Use cheaper screen + buy surplus of it to handle customer issues with screen much faster (refurb and repair). Device manufacturer wins in this scenario ( but one can also lose- For instance in the scenario of the KYOCERA 7135 - which sunk because it didn't use enough of the good stuff. it needed more of what it's competition had been implementing, faster CPU, NVRam, 320x320 module)


    Supply and demand are a huge factor in the LCD module business especially on large scale purchasing.

    My Dell Axim is WM 5 Soon to be WM 6 as Dell is testing WM6 on their X50 and X51 lines now. X51v looks like the likely first upgrade candidate.

    I currently have support for 640x480 VGA already because my WM 5 device has a 640x480 capable lcd module. It also supports various other resolutions. If I plug in my mirror adapter ( PDA mirrored video output to a CRT Monitor) My WM 5 device shows support for 1024x768 because now there is additional hardware in that can facilitate it.

    Support for the Resolution has less, in fact almost nothing to do with the OS than it has with the hardware the companies are willing to spend money on and put in the product. OS support follws suit and is seemless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    Nevertheless, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a 320x320 WM6 Treo this year. Unless Palm is rethinking their move to WM6 now that they have more control over the Palm OS.
    Wow..you need to do your homework. Palm has NO CONTROL over that OS - PALM OS is gone - it's now called Garnet OS and it is owned by ACCESS They may not even continue production of this operating system in favor of their Linux development. Palm/Palmone have nothing to do with Palm OS now.

    Don't even get me started on the truth behind no WiFi. it's all carrier bullying - it has nothing to do with palm. Want me to expount - start me a thread LOL

    PEACE
    Last edited by Scrufboy; 02/22/2007 at 03:23 PM.
  14. #34  
    Yeesh. Scrufboy, you spent a whole lot of time writing that acting like the lone expert among a sea of fools, but you really need to go back and reread the posts you were criticizing. First of all, I don't think that anyone here thought that flashing their WM-powered Treos would give them 320x320 resolution. There are folks who want WM6 (for the other features it brings) and there are people (like me) who posited the idea of flashing a Treo 700p with WM6 (even though such an option would never be offered). There's also talk of the possibility of transplanting a 320x320 screen onto existing WM-powered Treos. But I think what you're confused about is that the underlying reason why current WM Treos only supported 240x240 was not because 320x320 screen technology didn't exist (it clearly did - the Palm OS 650 sported one long ago), but because MS didn't support/sanction it until now (with WM6).

    Regarding Palm's level of control over the Palm OS...you really need to go do some reading before you accuse others of not knowing what they're talking about. Here you go:
    http://investor.palm.com/pressdetail...leaseID=221399
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  15. #35  
    Scrufboy, there's a few things wrong with your post.

    1. It's HTC not HTPC.

    HTC = High Tech Computers, a manufacturer of many Windows Mobile devices.
    HTPC = Home Theater Personal Computer, a computer designed especially for multimedia purposes, which usually includes recording and watching television shows.

    2.
    Support for the Resolution has less, in fact almost nothing to do with the OS than it has with the hardware the companies are willing to spend money on and put in the product. OS support follws suit and is seemless.
    No, I'm pretty sure the OS is a huge consideration in addition to the hardware. From the get go, WM5 only supported 240x240 and 480x480. If what you claim is true, then Palm should have been able to take their fancy 320x320 screens from their 650's and 700p's and make it work. But why couldn't they do that? Because the support for it wasn't there, and Palm and MS couldn't work out a deal on implementing it. Yes, the OS can be modified to support almost any resolution, but this must be done before the hardware aspect is implemented. You can't just put any resolution screen in the device and expect it to work already. There are set resolutions that are supported. If the resolution the hardware manufacture wants isn't already there, then they have to go ask MS to put it in.

    3.
    Wow..you need to do your homework. Palm has NO CONTROL over that OS - PALM OS is gone - it's now called Garnet OS and it is owned by ACCESS They may not even continue production of this operating system in favor of their Linux development. Palm/Palmone have nothing to do with Palm OS now.

    Get with the times man, Palm bought "Garnet OS" for $44 million a while ago...
  16. #36  
    The following is a link about the same guy who wrote why MS chose the 240x240 and 480x480 modes. He now talks about the new 320x320 mode.

    http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/...revisited.aspx
  17. #37  
    from the comments:
    Just a short note to let any Palm ISVs know that their StyleTap-compatible applications will supported on 320x320 Pocket PCs using the StyleTap Platform and that it will appear to the user and applications that it's running on a double density (i.e. 320x320) Garnet device.

    For more information, please see www.styletap.com
    Sweet! I was wondering if they were going to do that.
  18. #38  
    Tempest, a couple of things...

    1) Let's not confuse matters further about Palm's rights to Palm OS 5 (aka Garnet). As I understand it, they paid a "flat rate" licensing fee which allows them to use Garnet forever without having to pay a per-device fee to ACCESS. They also were given more rights to modify the source code of the Garnet OS and, I presume, not have to share what they've done with ACCESS (this second point isn't made perfectly clear in the press release and neither party has come out to make it perfectly clear, but this is my interpretation of it). As I understand it, they have *not* bought the Garnet OS. That OS still belongs to ACCESS and ACCESS can still change it (even though they won't, since they've made it clear that they're focusing their efforts on ALP) and can still license Garnet to other licensees.

    2) Thanks for that link from the MS fellow. Surur (or anyone more familiar with this), can you help me to understand what I just read. He went on and on about how hard it was to get the ideal icon sizing working, just for them to then decide to use the regular QVGA icons. Was the reason why we had to do without official 320x320 support all this time really because they just wanted the *ICONS* to fit? These are the icons viewable in the "Programs" folder, right? IMO, the large-icon view of the Programs folder has always been a pretty dumb idea for an expandable OS like WM and Palm OS, anyway (I've always switched my Palm OS devices to the small icon view right away). I certainly hope that all of the "hard work" he describes had to with more than just those icons.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  19.    #39  
    MS's philosophy is that everything should remain more or less the same size, irrespective of the resolution, to maintain readability. This means many things, e.g. skins, size of menu and status bars, spacing of icons etc need to be adjusted to maintain the look and feel of the OS. Obviously 3rd party software developers need to do the same. Unless the whole resolution is made vector based and resolution independent (as the Symbian OS was made just recently) its not possible to support every resolution.

    Surur
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    MS's philosophy is that everything should remain more or less the same size, irrespective of the resolution, to maintain readability. This means many things, e.g. skins, size of menu and status bars, spacing of icons etc need to be adjusted to maintain the look and feel of the OS. Obviously 3rd party software developers need to do the same. Unless the whole resolution is made vector based and resolution independent (as the Symbian OS was made just recently) its not possible to support every resolution.

    Surur

    Can we make the conclusion now that 320*320 will display less content than 240*320? Also the pictures will be same for majority 4:3 pictures. For those scaled to 320*320 pictures, it may display better, but who will scale their pictures to 320*320?
    Treo 750 unbranded T-mobile, HTC WIZARD 8125 T-MOBILE (broken), Treo 650 T-mobile 1.43/1.14 OS 5.4.8 Garnet (sold).
    Dell X50v, X30 624Mhz and HP ipaq h2210 h1945.

    Treo 750 hacks thread.
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