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  1. #161  
    I fear most of the comments on this thread are missing one substantial piece of information. It is absolutely true that Palm has established a method of doing business in which they gradually evolve their product lines making minor improvements along the way. Based on past practices, the guesses about what tweak is coming that I have been reading here, make sense.

    But these are not normal times for Palm. After establishing a dominant US market share, suddenly Palm's control over the US smartphone market has developed serious leaks. On top of that, the threat that the Iphone presents to the US smartphone market, must be responded to promptly. There are two supports for this position. First, Palm management at the December conference call, stated that the higher R&D expenses were based on an attempt to speed up the completion date of devices currently under development. Second, when asked how many new products would be released this year, Ed stated that rather than focus on the number of new products, the importance of the new products being released was what really mattered. I don't think Palm can afford to continue with its previous method of development, i.e. the fall release of a product upgrade. Now that they have cloned its hardware format, and beaten its pricing, Palm needs to release some important new products that begin to offer new benefits that again distance Treo from its competition. More specifically, there was also a comment about Palm introducing a high end smartphone product this year. That is what I would expect Palm to release around mid year. Palm needs a Treo that again establishes Treo's credentials as the premier maker of smartphones in the world.
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    I fear most of the comments on this thread are missing one substantial piece of information. It is absolutely true that Palm has established a method of doing business in which they gradually evolve their product lines making minor improvements along the way. Based on past practices, the guesses about what tweak is coming that I have been reading here, make sense.

    But these are not normal times for Palm. After establishing a dominant US market share, suddenly Palm's control over the US smartphone market has developed serious leaks. On top of that, the threat that the Iphone presents to the US smartphone market, must be responded to promptly. There are two supports for this position. First, Palm management at the December conference call, stated that the higher R&D expenses were based on an attempt to speed up the completion date of devices currently under development. Second, when asked how many new products would be released this year, Ed stated that rather than focus on the number of new products, the importance of the new products being released was what really mattered. I don't think Palm can afford to continue with its previous method of development, i.e. the fall release of a product upgrade. Now that they have cloned its hardware format, and beaten its pricing, Palm needs to release some important new products that begin to offer new benefits that again distance Treo from its competition. More specifically, there was also a comment about Palm introducing a high end smartphone product this year. That is what I would expect Palm to release around mid year. Palm needs a Treo that again establishes Treo's credentials as the premier maker of smartphones in the world.
    I think that most here agree with you that that is what Palm must do. On the other hand, there is not much more than sparse hope that that is what they will do.
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    I think that most here agree with you that that is what Palm must do. On the other hand, there is not much more than sparse hope that that is what they will do.
    Treo has been the lion of the US smartphone market. Lions don't slink off, when another lion enters its territory. You fight the intruder for it. Treo has huge stategic advantages. By the time the Iphone is actually introduced, Palm will have 100 service provider customers compared to the Iphone's singler service provider. They also have years and years of feedback about what things their users prefer in a phone. Also the potential for problems with new smartphones is amazingly high. Even with its minor evolutionary design changes, Treos still have suffered from bugs as the new smartphones were introduced.

    One of the primary reasons that Treo hasn't been able to dramatically improve their products has likely been limitations of the FrankenGarnett os. Perhaps the key issue presently could well be how close they are to getting their new Linus based Palm OS fully operational. I would think that if Palm is going to do a revolutionary upgrade of their smartphone, they would actually do it in the new Palm OS because that way to are able to but substantial distance between themselves an competitors like Samsung and Motorola.
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by driven01 View Post
    IMHO, Vista is nearly the same as XP .... I see no compelling reason to jump to Vista unless it comes on a new PC. (Certainly not with the price they are asking.)

    If you just want the eye candy (which also isn't as impressive as I expected) then you can purchase WindowBlinds and get yourself a lot closer. On the Vista machine I have I got bored with the new effects after about 2 days and switched back to the old "Classic mode". (Fisher-Price mode isn't available for those who like the XP look.)
    Unless I order online, I may have to buy a new laptop with Vista. The brick and mortar retailers are deciding to dump XP laptops in favor of Vista ones.

    I'm going to guess you can still buy XP laptops online, but I keep getting emails from both Dell and HP(my preferred) to upgrade to Vista. I think even Toshiba decided to go Vista. I think Sager still has XP notebooks, but now I'm worried about paying a lot just to get stuck behind.

    What do you all think? I suspect there will be software conflicts because Vista is so new.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    Treo has been the lion of the US smartphone market. People often say Blackberries still do better than Treos. I don't really know. Lions don't slink off, when another lion enters its territory. You fight the intruder for it. Treo has huge stategic advantages. By the time the Iphone is actually introduced, Palm will have 100 service provider customers compared to the Iphone's singler service provider. They also have years and years of feedback about what things their users prefer in a phone. Also the potential for problems with new smartphones is amazingly high. Even with its minor evolutionary design changes, Treos still have suffered from bugs as the new smartphones were introduced. Which is inexcusable. Since the new models aren't so much different from the last, how can there still be so many bugs? I'm speaking of the current line-up more.

    One of the primary reasons that Treo hasn't been able to dramatically improve their products has likely been limitations of the FrankenGarnett os. Perhaps the key issue presently could well be how close they are to getting their new Linus based Palm OS fully operational. I would think that if Palm is going to do a revolutionary upgrade of their smartphone, they would actually do it in the new Palm OS because that way to are able to but substantial distance between themselves an competitors like Samsung and Motorola.
    Well they will have to hurry up and do something soon. Their "updates" are pathetic in the market we have now! Can we even get fully functional BT 2.0 out of them, for starters?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    Treo has been the lion of the US smartphone market. Lions don't slink off, when another lion enters its territory. You fight the intruder for it. Treo has huge stategic advantages. By the time the Iphone is actually introduced, Palm will have 100 service provider customers compared to the Iphone's singler service provider. They also have years and years of feedback about what things their users prefer in a phone. Also the potential for problems with new smartphones is amazingly high. Even with its minor evolutionary design changes, Treos still have suffered from bugs as the new smartphones were introduced.

    One of the primary reasons that Treo hasn't been able to dramatically improve their products has likely been limitations of the FrankenGarnett os. Perhaps the key issue presently could well be how close they are to getting their new Linus based Palm OS fully operational. I would think that if Palm is going to do a revolutionary upgrade of their smartphone, they would actually do it in the new Palm OS because that way to are able to but substantial distance between themselves an competitors like Samsung and Motorola.
    It is simply naive to talk about Treo as "the lion." RIMM outsells them ten to one. According to the chart accompanying this article:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20070128/tc_cmp/197000995

    POS and WM between them have less than ten percent of the market and shrinking. It has been a good ride.
  7. #167  
    I find that a bit hard to believe about WM. But like I said, I have no real idea.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I find that a bit hard to believe about WM. But like I said, I have no real idea.
    Not my numbers.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Unless I order online, I may have to buy a new laptop with Vista. The brick and mortar retailers are deciding to dump XP laptops in favor of Vista ones.

    I'm going to guess you can still buy XP laptops online, but I keep getting emails from both Dell and HP(my preferred) to upgrade to Vista. I think even Toshiba decided to go Vista. I think Sager still has XP notebooks, but now I'm worried about paying a lot just to get stuck behind.

    What do you all think? I suspect there will be software conflicts because Vista is so new.
    With a new laptop I'd absolutely get Vista. There's no real downside. You'll have some software conflcits, but it'll work out over time. You'll also be shutting off the stupid user protection dialogs after less than a week. (It pops up so often that you stop reading them anyway ...) <-- So you are back to XP again.

    I just wouldn't spend the money, time or effort to upgrade existing systems.

    If anything I'll be moving my older systems over to Linux ... cheaper to license and it'll do the job for what I need those systems to do.
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    It is simply naive to talk about Treo as "the lion." RIMM outsells them ten to one. According to the chart accompanying this article:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20070128/tc_cmp/197000995

    POS and WM between them have less than ten percent of the market and shrinking. It has been a good ride.
    It seems to me that Palm OS marketshare is slipping which is of no surprise, but the article didn't state that WM share was declining. In fact, I've heard that WM is growing at an incredible rate worldwide.
  11. #171  
    Those numbers are very inconsistent with these numbers from Canalys itself, suggesting a different definition is being used for "smartphone".
    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006071.htm

    Edit: Those numbers are for smartphones, whereas the other numbers from Q2 include PDA's. As we know how many Treos are sold each quarter we could probably work out all the rest of the actual numbers. It suggest WM is still pretty strong in the PDA area still.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 01/29/2007 at 02:48 AM.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by driven01 View Post
    With a new laptop I'd absolutely get Vista. There's no real downside. You'll have some software conflcits, but it'll work out over time. You'll also be shutting off the stupid user protection dialogs after less than a week. (It pops up so often that you stop reading them anyway ...) <-- So you are back to XP again.

    I just wouldn't spend the money, time or effort to upgrade existing systems.

    If anything I'll be moving my older systems over to Linux ... cheaper to license and it'll do the job for what I need those systems to do.
    Several problems, which means I will have to wait until they get it straightened out.

    1. I can't afford to have Dreamweaver, Photoshop and my FTP program not work with Vista. That is work related, so there's no escape from that.

    2. It's an inconvenience more than necessity, but I prefer to have MY music and video software working. I really dont want to to be forced to use Vista's.

    3. I also prefer to use my own anti-virus and firewall, NOT Vista's. So now I have to figure out what is compatible.

    I think I may wait until July or August to get another laptop. Maybe by then the software stuff will be worked out.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    It is simply naive to talk about Treo as "the lion." RIMM outsells them ten to one. According to the chart accompanying this article:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20070128/tc_cmp/197000995

    POS and WM between them have less than ten percent of the market and shrinking. It has been a good ride.
    If you are a powerful company like Nokia, getting statistics to appear in newspapers that favor your companies image is just a question of money and influence. Those numbers appear far from accurate imo. Also, if you read what I said, I called Palm lhe lion of the US smartphone market not the international market. In the US, Rimm is one and Treo is 2, but I don't think alot of Rimm's devices qualify as smartphones so in my opinion Treo had the lion's share of the US smartphone market. Second, Nokia has made the international numbers ridiculous by producing mainly feature phones and calling them smartphones to mask the fact that they are mainly lousy at competing in the smartphone market. Third, the declining market share of the Palm OS shown in the your chart is based on the fact that Palm has been suffering because of their inability to upgrade their Garnet OS. This appears to be close to changing in the coming year when they release a new linux based Palm OS with more capabilities. The fact that the Palm OS's fortunes have been on the fall, doesn't necessarily mean that the Palm OS is going to fade away. The present version will fade away, but the next chapter has yet to be written. Last I looked, Symbian and Nokia had an inconsequential market share in the US smartphone market. How does the article you posted aid us in understanding the US smartphone market?
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Several problems, which means I will have to wait until they get it straightened out.

    1. I can't afford to have Dreamweaver, Photoshop and my FTP program not work with Vista. That is work related, so there's no escape from that.

    2. It's an inconvenience more than necessity, but I prefer to have MY music and video software working. I really dont want to to be forced to use Vista's.

    3. I also prefer to use my own anti-virus and firewall, NOT Vista's. So now I have to figure out what is compatible.

    I think I may wait until July or August to get another laptop. Maybe by then the software stuff will be worked out.
    #3 alone might force you to sit out and find a machine with XP on it, at least for the short-term. Microsoft's managed to make sure of that.

    I tried to install McAfee Enterprise on my copy of Vista ... no joy. Windows itself told me essentially "this won't work, please contact the vendor."

    Worse: I'm on the 32 bit verson of Vista which is supposed to be the most compatible. The 64 bit version will have an even longer wait as the kernel is much more locked down which will prevent 3rd party tools from gaining the access they need to do their job.
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  15. vw2002's Avatar
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    #175  
    I know this is offtopic, phonediva, but what do you do exactly that requires you to have to upgrade your cellphones and laptops so frequently?

    I'm looking at upgrading my laptop but I want one that will be vista premium ready, not just vista ready. "vista ready" doesn't necessarily mean the unit will support the real "breakthrough" features in vista.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    It seems to me that Palm OS marketshare is slipping which is of no surprise, but the article didn't state that WM share was declining. In fact, I've heard that WM is growing at an incredible rate worldwide.
    Perhaps. However, it does not seem to have market share. Even Linux dwarfs it. In the growing market, it can be growing in absolute terms while losing share.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    I know this is offtopic, phonediva, but what do you do exactly that requires you to have to upgrade your cellphones and laptops so frequently?

    I'm looking at upgrading my laptop but I want one that will be vista premium ready, not just vista ready. "vista ready" doesn't necessarily mean the unit will support the real "breakthrough" features in vista.
    Heh heh ... the eye candy is "breakthrough". :-)

    I like the improved tablet PC support, but none of the current tablet models have anything other than integrated video cards with shared memory. How sad ...
    Last edited by driven01; 01/29/2007 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Reworded a bit
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Those numbers are very inconsistent with these numbers from Canalys itself, suggesting a different definition is being used for "smartphone".
    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006071.htm

    Edit: Those numbers are for smartphones, whereas the other numbers from Q2 include PDA's. As we know how many Treos are sold each quarter we could probably work out all the rest of the actual numbers. It suggest WM is still pretty strong in the PDA area still.

    Surur
    These numbers show RIMM, Sharpe, and Palm to be fighting neck and neck for the hind teat.
  19. #179  
    At the very least, aren't you going to post an apology for posting irrelevant international numbers, in reponse to my statement that Treo was the "lion" of the US smartphone market?
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    At the very least, aren't you going to post an apology for posting irrelevant international numbers, in reponse to my statement that Treo was the "lion" of the US smartphone market?
    If you like: I apologize.
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