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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    ...........Palm knows how to innovate, they needed a stronger os than what they had. Now hopefully they have it.
    "Hope springs eternal......." One might reasonably define "hope" as unsatisfied desire.
  2. #202  
    rvwink, I think we'll just have to agree to differ on subjecvtive matters like what constitutes a smartphone and why we think Nokia dominates in most of the world except the US. As to matters that rely on facts, I think I've provided the relevant data and there doesn't seem to be much point in just restating them again.

    But for a few short excursions with PPC/WM I'd been using Palm OS devices for years prior to replacing my Treo 650 with an E61. As I said, I have great affection for the company and the OS (still the best in a few ways IMHO) and I certainly hope you're right about the impending resurgence of Palm OS and Palm Inc. My best guess is that the probability of this is low, but I'd love to see it.
  3. #203  
    "As to matters that rely on facts, I think I've provided the relevant data and there doesn't seem to be much point in just restating them again."

    There actually is something to talk about concerning your "facts". First, a large portion of your facts were provided by an About Symbian website. I wonder whether it is likely that About Symbian objectively provides accurate data? Along the same lines, what is included and not included in their data. For example, 40% of Treo sales are currently coming from Corporate customers. I wonder whether those large corporate sales find their way into their results. I recognize the shortfall of Palm OS versus Symbian is so large, that it really doesn't matter. Just interested in what you call "facts".

    Maybe you could explain from your viewpoint how it came to pass that Nokia and Handspring started in the smartphone market about the same time. Nokia had infinite resources and Handspring had by comparison chicken feed. Nokia had wide reaching relationships with the service providers and and Handspring had next to none. You appear to be a Nokia fan, so perhaps you could explain how came to pass that before they were able to start making decent smartphones, Nokia ended up copying the Treo architecture? My suggestions is that Nokia is excellent at execution, they simply started out not having a clue in terms of how to design a data centric phone. Secondarily, there were incredibly stubborn in refusing to give up on their Brick design, trying minor change after minor change in an attempt to make the market fall in love with it.
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    There actually is something to talk about concerning your "facts". First, a large portion of your facts were provided by an About Symbian website. I wonder whether it is likely that About Symbian objectively provides accurate data? Along the same lines, what is included and not included in their data. For example, 40% of Treo sales are currently coming from Corporate customers. I wonder whether those large corporate sales find their way into their results. I recognize the shortfall of Palm OS versus Symbian is so large, that it really doesn't matter. Just interested in what you call "facts".
    I've provided six links to market share data in this thread. One was a link to an image at allaboutsymbian.com, five were links to data from the research firm Canalys. Canalys lists its clients as including Microsoft, Palm and Symbian (as well as many others). The data seem to be well respected and are reported widely in the media, but I can't vouch for their methods as I don't know what they are and the web site gives next to nothing away. If you have other data from another source I'd love to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    Maybe you could explain from your viewpoint how it came to pass that Nokia and Handspring started in the smartphone market about the same time. Nokia had infinite resources and Handspring had by comparison chicken feed. Nokia had wide reaching relationships with the service providers and and Handspring had next to none. You appear to be a Nokia fan...
    I wouldn't characterise myself as a Nokia 'fan'. I use an E61 and I think on balance it's very much better than the Treo 650 it replaces. Some aspects of the UI aren't as nice in my opinion but others are great (the active standby screen - similar to the WM5 Today screen - and tasking switching especially) and the connectivity options are hugely better (UMTS and Wifi). It's also much more stable - no crashes in the four months I've had it - and seems to be better built. Am I wedded to Nokia then? Absolutely not. Would I switch to Palm, WM, Apple or something else if I judged the hardware/software/carrier package to be better? Damn right!

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    ... so perhaps you could explain how came to pass that before they were able to start making decent smartphones, Nokia ended up copying the Treo architecture?
    I think you're probably right when you suggest that in some ways (form factor) the E61 is a copy of the Treos (those from the 600 on) but that's just one of many S60 devices they make. You might not think that the others are 'decent' but they sell like hot cakes so presumably lots of other people like them. As I've said before, I think differentiation (with different devices focussing on different needs) is probably a major factor in Nokia's success.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    My suggestions is that Nokia is excellent at execution...
    Agreed. You don't get to dominate the global market without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    they simply started out not having a clue in terms of how to design a data centric phone.
    Again I think you proceed from a false premise. The non-QWERTY phones and the QWERTY clam shells ('Communicators') might not appeal to you (they don't to me either) but Nokia were the dominant player long before the E61 came along. Take a look at the figures from Canalys I quote in post 189. They had 41% of the market even in Q1 2004. They might not have been designing devices for you and me back then, but they certainly 'had a clue' about how to design smartphones that somebody liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    Secondarily, there were incredibly stubborn in refusing to give up on their Brick design, trying minor change after minor change in an attempt to make the market fall in love with it.
    Worked though, didn't it
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    I think you're probably right when you suggest that in some ways (form factor) the E61 is a copy of the Treos (those from the 600 on)
    Actually, perhaps I wasn't thinking too clearly when I wrote that. You could just as easily argue that, in terms of form factor, the E61 is something of a copy of a Blackberry. In fact I'd say that in some ways it resembles a Blackberry 8700 more than the Treos that were around when it was released: wider, landscape screen, bigger non-smiley keyboard, no antenna etc. Much sexier than an 8700 of course
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Actually, perhaps I wasn't thinking too clearly when I wrote that. You could just as easily argue that, in terms of form factor, the E61 is something of a copy of a Blackberry. In fact I'd say that in some ways it resembles a Blackberry 8700 more than the Treos that were around when it was released: wider, landscape screen, bigger non-smiley keyboard, no antenna etc. Much sexier than an 8700 of course
    I agree. The Blackberry has much more cachet in the business market which Nokia was targeting with the camera-less E61 than the Treo. Treo is almost unknown in Europe, while Blackberry, while low in number,has that 'Important business man that is indispensable to his company' aura that cellphone used to have. Everyone, even the Treo, copied the Blackberry.

    Surur
  7. #207  
    I'll still take my touch screen interface and wealth of 3rd party apps from across the years of Palm OS over a Blackberry any day.
    Palm Treo 680
    Unlocked GSM
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by snoslicer8 View Post
    I'll still take my touch screen interface and wealth of 3rd party apps from across the years of Palm OS over a Blackberry any day.
    So will I. At best, that makes us smart but unpopular. As they say on The West Wing, "No one likes the smartest kid in the class."
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    On the one hand you place great emphasis on the importance that WM5 and presumably Palm is losing share on Symbian's choice of battlefields. On the other hand, while you are perplexed by Nokia's weak results in the US, you don't draw any important conclusions from is happening.




    The source of my data is a company called Palm which protested several times that Nokia was passing off feature phones as smartphones. They even tried keeping separate statistics for a while, but frankly this didn't work.

    Nokia has not succeeded in the US because they have been clueless for a long time starting with the "Brick". Not true. Americans are slow to adapt. Old is more comfortable than new to us. How come they do very well in Europe offering superior phones?Now they have settled down as one of a list of companies that has successfully copied Treo's hardware design. But otherwise they don't seem to bring anything new to the table. Again not true. They have wifi, quad band(not enough though), 3G, internet phone and music phone all in one. THAT is innovative!

    Vodaphone is a huge company. Like Verizon in the US they charge more money for both their smartphones and their data. But they ultimately have the largest number of subscribers and all of the smartphones they sell have high data costs. So it is a level playing field, and I believe the Treo 750 is selling well presently into a group of subscribers who are accustomed to high data costs. This is not what I've been reading.



    There are two responses here. First, when you are leading the US market with enormous market share advantages over most of your competitors there is a natural tendency to play the game more conservatively. You slowly evolve your product and keep riding the wave. Second, Palm's ability and desire to innovate using WM5 was limited. They want to innovate in the Palm OS, and until they have the Linux based OS operating, their hands were largely tied. I am confident when the new OS becomes availalble, Treo will do some new things. Their market position demands that they become aggressive. The fact that they haven't innovated in the last few years, doesn't mean that they don't know how. They stated in 2002 with little money and almost no service provider relationships. Yet they knocked Nokia, Samsung, and Motorola silly for 4 years. I'm going to assume you mean only in the US. 'Cause that isn't true overseas!! They shaped the current smartphone. Palm knows how to innovate,That was Handspring. Palm has done nothing much different except add WM and 3G. they needed a stronger os than what they had. Now hopefully they have it.
    Sorry, but I just got tired of reading you downplaying Nokia.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    "As to matters that rely on facts, I think I've provided the relevant data and there doesn't seem to be much point in just restating them again."

    There actually is something to talk about concerning your "facts". First, a large portion of your facts were provided by an About Symbian website. I wonder whether it is likely that About Symbian objectively provides accurate data? Along the same lines, what is included and not included in their data. For example, 40% of Treo sales are currently coming from Corporate customers. I wonder whether those large corporate sales find their way into their results. I recognize the shortfall of Palm OS versus Symbian is so large, that it really doesn't matter. Just interested in what you call "facts".

    Maybe you could explain from your viewpoint how it came to pass that Nokia and Handspring started in the smartphone market about the same time. Nokia had infinite resources and Handspring had by comparison chicken feed. Nokia had wide reaching relationships with the service providers and and Handspring had next to none. You appear to be a Nokia fan, so perhaps you could explain how came to pass that before they were able to start making decent smartphones, Nokia ended up copying the Treo architecture? My suggestions is that Nokia is excellent at execution, they simply started out not having a clue in terms of how to design a data centric phone. Secondarily, there were incredibly stubborn in refusing to give up on their Brick design, trying minor change after minor change in an attempt to make the market fall in love with it.
    HUH??? The only Treo like phone is the E61!!!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #211  
    What are the chances of us seeing a 480x480 Treo before the end of the decade? I know Microsoft's "controversial" decision to not go the 320x320 route. MS said it's not fair to compare a Palm high-res screen to a WM low-res screen, but Palm's high-res has been available for years now and WM still has no high-res options. Even phones announced and not released yet are still low-res.

    I am very happy with my 700wx, but I can't wait until someone releases a high-res WM pda/phone. Hopefully, Palm will be the first.
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest790 View Post
    What are the chances of us seeing a 480x480 Treo before the end of the decade? I know Microsoft's "controversial" decision to not go the 320x320 route. MS said it's not fair to compare a Palm high-res screen to a WM low-res screen, but Palm's high-res has been available for years now and WM still has no high-res options. Even phones announced and not released yet are still low-res.

    I am very happy with my 700wx, but I can't wait until someone releases a high-res WM pda/phone. Hopefully, Palm will be the first.
    Just curious. Why does MS think it's unfair to compare?
  13. #213  
    How about, because if people kept comparing screens, they could get quite unsatisfied with WM screens?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest790 View Post
    What are the chances of us seeing a 480x480 Treo before the end of the decade? I know Microsoft's "controversial" decision to not go the 320x320 route. MS said it's not fair to compare a Palm high-res screen to a WM low-res screen, but Palm's high-res has been available for years now and WM still has no high-res options. Even phones announced and not released yet are still low-res.

    I am very happy with my 700wx, but I can't wait until someone releases a high-res WM pda/phone. Hopefully, Palm will be the first.
    There will be at least 3 VGA WM phones released this year, and probably twice as much unconfirmed. They are high end expensive device however.
    http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdalist&list=vga

    Surur
  15. #215  
    Oh, so MSFT has been holding out on the US? None of those are technically available for use here.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Oh, so MSFT has been holding out on the US? None of those are technically available for use here.
    This is the type of event where the carriers are the problem. Microsoft nor the phone manufacturers have an outlet to sell directly to the consumer. If the phones are more expensive with the VGA display then it will cost the carriers more money to subsidize the sale of the phone, so they don't carry it either.

    This is what drives people to the grey market. I wish that we'd adopt a more European style market where you buy your phones and service separate. But, so long as we have CDMA carriers here with their "tie you to the service" phones and their subsidies then the GSM carriers are going to have to do the same just to be competitive.
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  17. cgk
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    #217  
    Is this likely to be the sherlock?

    http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9...0-wm6-upgrade/
  18. #218  
    That just looks like a 750 at an angle.

    Surur
  19. cgk
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    #219  
    Well it is - with WM6 on that - but it matches my current expection of "innovation" at palm.
  20. #220  
    End of Life-keep in mind these are only estimates & reflect depletion of stock in the warehouse

    LG225 EOL – both colors
    Moto i275 3/11 - black and white
    Moto i860 2/25
    Moto i850 Sept
    Novatel U720 April – replaced by Sierra 595u
    RIM 7520 June
    Samsung 900M May
    Samsung 420 April
    Samsung M500 April/May – both colors
    Samsung A640 May
    Sanyo 7000 April
    Sanyo 3100 May - Pink, Brown, and Silver
    Sanyo M1 May
    Treo 700P Early May
    CDM120 Mid May

    Launches (keep in mind these are only estimates)

    Samsung m300 5/14 Replaces A640.
    Samsung M620 3/29- Music-centric Power Vision device
    Samsung m510 5/14 – replaces m500. Black/blue and black/pink.
    Sanyo 3200 4/22 – replaces 3100. Black, blue, and pink
    Sanyo 7050 3/29 – Rugged MIL spec vision. Autonomous GPS. Replaces 7000
    Sanyo Katana II June. Replaces Katana. Black/Pink/Silver&Black
    Sierra 595U 4/19 – USB Rev A card. Will replace the Novatel USB
    Sierra Aircard 597E 5/14 EVDO Rev a. Broadband Express Card
    Novatel Express Launched
    Moto ic502 Silver 3/29
    Moto Franklin Q Launched
    ic902 5/14 – Power Source/Hybrid EVDO
    PPC 6800 Titan TBDTBDTBD
    Palm Sherlock 5/14 – Replaces Treo 700P. Dark blue and Burgundy

    Copied from phonenews.com forums....
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