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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002 View Post
    I know this is offtopic, phonediva, but what do you do exactly that requires you to have to upgrade your cellphones and laptops so frequently?

    I'm looking at upgrading my laptop but I want one that will be vista premium ready, not just vista ready. "vista ready" doesn't necessarily mean the unit will support the real "breakthrough" features in vista.
    The laptop is definitely work-related. I've had this laptop for a while and need to upgrade by the end of the year at the latest. I build websites, edit photos, need to start editing videos, have to build 2 new business sites and stuff like that.

    With cell phones, I probably could live with two if I were normal, LOL!
    I love technology. There is no real reason for me to own so many phones except I'm an enthusiast. I'm now working on dumping a few phones and sticking with my favorites.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by driven01 View Post
    #3 alone might force you to sit out and find a machine with XP on it, at least for the short-term. Microsoft's managed to make sure of that.

    I tried to install McAfee Enterprise on my copy of Vista ... no joy. Windows itself told me essentially "this won't work, please contact the vendor."

    Worse: I'm on the 32 bit verson of Vista which is supposed to be the most compatible. The 64 bit version will have an even longer wait as the kernel is much more locked down which will prevent 3rd party tools from gaining the access they need to do their job.
    That's bad, because I lined up an HP wth Vista Premium and a Vista Toshiba on my possible buy list. Guess I have to wait. I need Zone Alarm and Avast(or maybe eTrust) to work. By that time, the August roll-out may happen.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    With cell phones, I probably could live with two if I were normal, LOL!
    Two is "normal"? . It's all good. I suppose there are worse things to be fanatical about.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkY View Post
    Two is "normal"? . It's all good. I suppose there are worse things to be fanatical about.
    Well ... she's certainly earned her "geek" badge.
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Perhaps. However, it does not seem to have market share. Even Linux dwarfs it. In the growing market, it can be growing in absolute terms while losing share.
    I believe WM is growing at a faster rate than any of the other smartphone OSes so that would mean that marketshare is also growing.
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    I believe WM is growing at a faster rate than any of the other smartphone OSes so that would mean that marketshare is also growing.
    As George Will likes to remind us, "We are entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts." However, given that Nokia/Symbian has both share and volume, it would seem that any share that WM gains has to be at the expense of the other piglets. What am I missing?
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by driven01 View Post
    Well ... she's certainly earned her "geek" badge.
    Good. Now I do not have to offer her mine.
  8. #188  
    whmurray is right in that Symbian is growing faster than anyone else. I do however feel its more due to the size of its owners (Nokia, Sony Ericcson) than the merits of the OS.

    Surur
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    As George Will likes to remind us, "We are entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts." However, given that Nokia/Symbian has both share and volume, it would seem that any share that WM gains has to be at the expense of the other piglets. What am I missing?
    Here are some numbers:

    Worldwide total smart mobile device market

    Q1

    Symbian: Q1 2004 41%, Q1 2005 61%, Q1 2006 69%
    MS: Q1 2004 23%, Q1 2005 18%, Q1 2006 12%
    RIM: Q1 2004 6%, Q1 2005 7%, Q1 2006 8%
    PalmSource: Q1 2004 22%, Q1 2005 11%, Q1 2006 ??

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2005/r2005041.htm
    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006043.htm

    Q2

    Symbian: Q2 2004, 41%, Q2 2005 63%, Q2 2006 67%
    MS: Q2 2004 23%, Q2 2005 16%, Q2 2006 15%
    RIM: Q2 2004, 8%, Q2 2005 7, Q2 2006 6%
    PalmSource: Q2 2004 23%, Q2 2005 10%, Q2 2006 ??

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2005/r2005071.htm
    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006071.htm

    Growth (whole market)

    Q1'04-Q1'05 82%
    Q2'04-Q2'05 105%
    Q3'04-Q3'05 75%
    Q1'05-Q1'06 55%
    Q2'05-Q2'06 56%

    EMEA smart mobile device market

    Q3

    Symbian: Q3 2005 77%, Q3 2006 79%
    MS: Q3 2005 18%, Q3 2006 17%
    RIM: Q3 2005 3.5%, Q3 2006 3.5%
    Others: Q3 2005 1.8%, Q3 2006 1.0%

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006102.htm

    Symbian has growing marketshare in a growing market. WM has declining marketshare but increasing year-on-year sales, at least in some quarters.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    whmurray is right in that Symbian is growing faster than anyone else. I do however feel its more due to the size of its owners (Nokia, Sony Ericcson) than the merits of the OS.
    Mostly Symbian sales mean Nokia S60. I think there are several possible factors at play in it's dominance:

    1) Brand recognition and loyalty. Nokia has truly massive sales of non-smart phones and I'm sure that's a factor in people moving from non-smart to smartphone - they've had Nokias before and trust the brand.

    2) The OS displays it's origins and feels quite phone-like, more-so than Palm OS and WM5 (particularly the PPC UI). I think this could be important, especially when a potential buyer sees the device for the first time.

    3) Nokia makes a large number of smartphones models and they cover a wide range of sizes and form factors. This differentiation reflects the fact that they have different specialisations and are targetted at users with different requirements. Most will do email, web browsing, photos and video, music, etc, but the different specs and form factors change the emphasis and mean some are better specialised for certain tasks. WM devices are looking much more diverse these days, but perhaps they've not quite got there yet, especially with traditional candy-bar devices. Palm OS smartphones (Treos) are all really very similar.

    4) IMHO, Nokia have some great hardware designs. I've owned or otherwise tried a range of exposed-QWERTY devices and the E61 is definitely my favourite - thin, elegant, metal casing, big screen, big keyboard; it feels like a quality bit of kit. QWERTY's not for everyone of course, but from what I've seen some of the N series devices look really nice too. The new N95 is a real stunner.

    5) Personally I also think the OS is a winner. Others will disagree I'm sure, but I think it offers the best blend of ease of use, power and stability. Not to say it's perfect - I'd like to give the S60 guys a good talking to about how deep some options are buried and where they've buried them - but my favourite for now.
  11. #191  
    The Boston Red Socks recently signed the best pitcher in Japan who was extremely successful playing in Japan. But it is still not clear whether he will be good enough to do well against Major League competition. In a similar fashion, Symbian has enjoyed a huge regional advantage in the EMEA. But at the same time, its smartphone market share in the US market seems almost non existant. Why is that? If Symbian, by virtue of its largest and growing market share, is supposed to be the best operating system for smartphones, why are its phones striking out in the US market? I submit that the facts behind Symbian's high market share are extremely doubtful. In my view, most of the phones that Nokia is credited with in its Smartphone market share statistics are more feature phones than smartphones. Its not like Nokia is unknown in the US, yet no one wants to own their smartphone designs.

    In EMEA this time around, the Treo 750V and the Treo 680 both appear to be selling reasonably well now that Palm has removed the antenna and has recruited Vodaphone and MSFT to lead the charge. What does Symbian's statistical dominance prove? In fact, in light of the fact that they haven't been able to upgrade their operating system suitably for the last 3 years, what does the Palm OS shrinking act currently prove? Two things really matter here and neither are statistics. How good will Palm's new operating system be, once it is finally released. Can Palm finally come out with a smartphone that distances itself signficantly from its competition by offering some dramatic new features? If Palm can execute on these two items, over the next year or two, alot of Nokia's feature phone/smartphones will end up being replaced by Treos imo.
  12. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    whmurray is right in that Symbian is growing faster than anyone else. I do however feel its more due to the size of its owners (Nokia, Sony Ericcson) than the merits of the OS.

    Surur
    I agree. On the other hand, there is no strong competition. Linux has no father, POS is long in the tooth, and WM is bloated and hard to use. Seems likely that Symbian will continue to garner both share and volume. Hey, the new kid has a wealthy father.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Mostly Symbian sales mean Nokia S60. I think there are several possible factors at play in it's dominance:

    1) Brand recognition and loyalty. Nokia has truly massive sales of non-smart phones and I'm sure that's a factor in people moving from non-smart to smartphone - they've had Nokias before and trust the brand.

    2) The OS displays it's origins and feels quite phone-like, more-so than Palm OS and WM5 (particularly the PPC UI). I think this could be important, especially when a potential buyer sees the device for the first time.

    3) Nokia makes a large number of smartphones models and they cover a wide range of sizes and form factors. This differentiation reflects the fact that they have different specialisations and are targetted at users with different requirements. Most will do email, web browsing, photos and video, music, etc, but the different specs and form factors change the emphasis and mean some are better specialised for certain tasks. WM devices are looking much more diverse these days, but perhaps they've not quite got there yet, especially with traditional candy-bar devices. Palm OS smartphones (Treos) are all really very similar.

    4) IMHO, Nokia have some great hardware designs. I've owned or otherwise tried a range of exposed-QWERTY devices and the E61 is definitely my favourite - thin, elegant, metal casing, big screen, big keyboard; it feels like a quality bit of kit. QWERTY's not for everyone of course, but from what I've seen some of the N series devices look really nice too. The new N95 is a real stunner.

    5) Personally I also think the OS is a winner. Others will disagree I'm sure, but I think it offers the best blend of ease of use, power and stability. Not to say it's perfect - I'd like to give the S60 guys a good talking to about how deep some options are buried and where they've buried them - but my favourite for now.
    Cant find anything to disagree with in your analysis, but I think some factors are more important than others. I have made those bold. I think name recognition and R&D, focused on the consumer market (cameras, music, varied form factors) and distribution muscle has largely been responsible for boosting Symbian. For most Symbian owners the phone they own is just the highest end Nokia or Sony-Erricson, vs being bought for its smartphone functionality. Personally I dont see anything wrong with that, and look forward to the same kind of differentiation in the WM side (more varied form factors, more built-in memory, greater cameras etc)

    Surur
  14. cgk
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    #194  
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    That's bad, because I lined up an HP wth Vista Premium and a Vista Toshiba on my possible buy list. Guess I have to wait. I need Zone Alarm and Avast(or maybe eTrust) to work. By that time, the August roll-out may happen.
    Avast works fine for me in vista. I have yet to see a problem there so yeah.
  16. #196  
    Do you know if Zone Alarm works on Vista? Unless the Windows firewall knocks your socks off with protection(which I doubt), I have always felt safer with ZA.

    Good to know about Avast!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    To "cling;" v. to hang on by one's fingernails.
    Last edited by whmurray; 01/29/2007 at 06:40 PM.
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    The Boston Red Socks recently signed the best pitcher in Japan who was extremely successful playing in Japan. But it is still not clear whether he will be good enough to do well against Major League competition.
    Perhaps you missed the word 'Worldwide' in the heading 'Worldwide total smart mobile device market'. You do realise that WM and Palm OS devices are sold globally, right? Frequently WM devices appear for sale in Europe, Asia and the Middle East before they appear in the US. In other words, WM5 device manufacturers are targeting the same markets as Symbian devices, and they're a long way from winning the battle - quite the reverse, WM market share is decreasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    In a similar fashion, Symbian has enjoyed a huge regional advantage in the EMEA. But at the same time, its smartphone market share in the US market seems almost non existant. Why is that? If Symbian, by virtue of its largest and growing market share, is supposed to be the best operating system for smartphones, why are its phones striking out in the US market?
    It's an interesting question. Here's a look at the global picture:

    http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...eworld2006.jpg

    The US is the outlier. I suspect a lot of it has to do with smart device culture and history - Palm and Microsoft mobile OSs are more ingrained in that in the US. Also, however, I suspect it has to do with the incompatibility of US phone technologies with the prevalent global standards and the fact that Symbian's big global player (Nokia) doesn't, as far as I'm aware, make phones that are fully compatible with US standards. They've pretty much given up on CDMA and don't (I think) make any phones (yet) that are compatible with US UMTS frequencies. Look at the E61 and the US version the E62. The E61 is a great device, not least because of its 3G and Wifi radios - both of which are missing in the E62! One interpretation of this is that Nokia just don't see the US GSM market as worth the investment - that's basically what they said about CDMA:

    http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/...kiacdma_1.html

    - but I'm not sure I completely buy that. The opening of flagship stores in Chicago and New York signals intent:

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1953830,00.asp

    and I'd not be surprised at all to see many more compelling (i.e. not neutered) smartphones from Nokia in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    I submit that the facts behind Symbian's high market share are extremely doubtful. In my view, most of the phones that Nokia is credited with in its Smartphone market share statistics are more feature phones than smartphones.
    Personally I think by any sensible, accepted definition they're smartphones, but use the word as you like - I've no intention of getting into a long debate over lexical semantics. I'm more intrigued in your statement 'most of the phones that Nokia is credited with in its Smartphone market share statistics'. Are you saying you have sales figures for individual models? Please share if you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    In EMEA this time around, the Treo 750V and the Treo 680 both appear to be selling reasonably
    Again, please share the source of your data. The 750v is a nice device, but one horribly crippled by Vodafone data costs. Is it really selling well? Vodafone UK: 2.35 per MB. T-Mobile UK 0.0075 per MB. What were Palm thinking?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink View Post
    How good will Palm's new operating system be, once it is finally released. Can Palm finally come out with a smartphone that distances itself signficantly from its competition by offering some dramatic new features? If Palm can execute on these two items, over the next year or two, alot of Nokia's feature phone/smartphones will end up being replaced by Treos imo.
    Possibly the largest 'If' in the history of smartphone prediction I have great affection for Palm and would love to see it, but c'mon 'dramatic new features'? They haven't managed to stick Wifi in a phone yet! IMO the OS would need to be stunning, the marketing outside of the US massively improved (not Vodafone!), and the features at least competitive before they could even think of making a dent in Symbian's share of the market.
    Last edited by marcol; 01/29/2007 at 07:03 PM.
  19. vw2002's Avatar
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    #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    The laptop is definitely work-related. I've had this laptop for a while and need to upgrade by the end of the year at the latest. I build websites, edit photos, need to start editing videos, have to build 2 new business sites and stuff like that.

    With cell phones, I probably could live with two if I were normal, LOL!
    I love technology. There is no real reason for me to own so many phones except I'm an enthusiast. I'm now working on dumping a few phones and sticking with my favorites.
    I hear ya! I think it`s safe to say that we are all technophiles around here, or else we wouldnt be stopping by for our TC fix everyday!
    I gotta have more cowbell
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Perhaps you missed the word 'Worldwide' in the heading 'Worldwide total smart mobile device market'. You do realise that WM and Palm OS devices are sold globally, right? Frequently WM devices appear for sale in Europe, Asia and the Middle East before they appear in the US. In other words, WM5 device manufacturers are targeting the same markets as Symbian devices, and they're a long way from winning the battle - quite the reverse, WM market share is decreasing.
    On the one hand you place great emphasis on the importance that WM5 and presumably Palm is losing share on Symbian's choice of battlefields. On the other hand, while you are perplexed by Nokia's weak results in the US, you don't draw any important conclusions from is happening.


    Personally I think by any sensible, accepted definition they're smartphones, but use the word as you like - I've no intention of getting into a long debate over lexical semantics. I'm more intrigued in your statement 'most of the phones that Nokia is credited with in its Smartphone market share statistics'. Are you saying you have sales figures for individual models? Please share if you do.
    The source of my data is a company called Palm which protested several times that Nokia was passing off feature phones as smartphones. They even tried keeping separate statistics for a while, but frankly this didn't work.

    Nokia has not succeeded in the US because they have been clueless for a long time starting with the "Brick". Now they have settled down as one of a list of companies that has successfully copied Treo's hardware design. But otherwise they don't seem to bring anything new to the table.

    The 750v is a nice device, but one horribly crippled by Vodafone data costs. Is it really selling well? Vodafone UK: 2.35 per MB. T-Mobile UK 0.0075 per MB. What were Palm thinking?
    Vodaphone is a huge company. Like Verizon in the US they charge more money for both their smartphones and their data. But they ultimately have the largest number of subscribers and all of the smartphones they sell have high data costs. So it is a level playing field, and I believe the Treo 750 is selling well presently into a group of subscribers who are accustomed to high data costs.

    c'mon 'dramatic new features'? They haven't managed to stick Wifi in a phone yet! IMO the OS would need to be stunning, the marketing outside of the US massively improved (not Vodafone!), and the features at least competitive before they could even think of making a dent in Symbian's share of the market.
    There are two responses here. First, when you are leading the US market with enormous market share advantages over most of your competitors there is a natural tendency to play the game more conservatively. You slowly evolve your product and keep riding the wave. Second, Palm's ability and desire to innovate using WM5 was limited. They want to innovate in the Palm OS, and until they have the Linux based OS operating, their hands were largely tied. I am confident when the new OS becomes availalble, Treo will do some new things. Their market position demands that they become aggressive. The fact that they haven't innovated in the last few years, doesn't mean that they don't know how. They stated in 2002 with little money and almost no service provider relationships. Yet they knocked Nokia, Samsung, and Motorola silly for 4 years. They shaped the current smartphone. Palm knows how to innovate, they needed a stronger os than what they had. Now hopefully they have it.
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