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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post
    I'll accept your statement when you give me one business owner who feels differently. Make your case for ROI on business usage......you keep talking about one, we're still waiting.
    You seem to dismiss all campus-based activities as meaningless, when its far from that.

    e.g. how about seamless WIFI/GSM hand-over as T-Mobile is trailing, allowing you to route calls via VOIP to handhelds while on campus, or over the cellular network when off site. Can save you a bundle on phone bills, while still making sure your staff is in easy reach.

    WIFI-based stock-taking. Their are various symbol-made devices with WIFI and GSM, with included bar code/ RFID scanners etc, where the same device can be used on site over the area wide WIFI network, and then taken out to the ship loading dock and continue from there over WAN.

    Option for faster data access in areas without 3G. I know you will make your old laptop argument, but more and more EXECUTIVES (not your lackeys) are only carrying blackberries only, and constantly receive e-mail while traveling. They can not plan for every contingency, and most dont carry their laptop when going to dinner. When they get an e-mail alerting them to something requiring their urgent approval, being able to download that large power point at 2 megabit/sec instead of 50 KB/sec of GPRS (e.g. using a T-Mobile Dash) may make the difference between finishing their meal and rushing home. Hypothetical, but not far fetched at all.

    BTW, why this major focus on the business market. Is that all you know? Palm is trying to expand in the consumer market, where many customers have an aversion to expensive data plans. They lose THEIR business to people who provide what the consumer, who wants to stream his SlingBox wants.

    Surur
  2. #62  
    Stock-taking and merchandise tracking with a cellphone Surur? If you had WiFi would you want RFID capability on your phone next?
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas View Post
    Stock-taking and merchandise tracking with a cellphone Surur? If you had WiFi would you want RFID capability on your phone next?
    I believe Jack asked for ANY case with ROI with WIFI. As Treo does not have WIFI it could obviously not be used in those situations, but similarly specified devices with WIFI are.

    Some more ROI arguments:

    Integrated WLAN and WWAN – The Right Answer
    For Mobile Workers
    The TCO analysis, although at a high level, reveals a compelling case for a combined integrated WLAN and WWAN solution. The TCO does not comprehend a number of other expected benefits of the integrated WLAN/WWAN combo solution that are likely to be realized by the mobile worker including:
    �� Additional productivity gains via greater access to the Internet in more places.
    �� A stronger end to end quality of service agreement that is likely to be realized with cellular carriers that offer an integrated hotspot and WWAN plan.
    �� The impact of a more favorable response rate to customers, suppliers, and other business stakeholders.
    �� An increase in employee retention as mobile workers is given a more robust set of tools to do their job.
    �� Greater availability of the mobile device on the Internet to perform updates such as security patches, software revisions, etc.
    IntelliClear believes that as more commercial enterprises, large and small, realize the direct and indirect benefits associated with mobile devices for mobile workers equipped with integrated WLAN and WWAN capabilities, that more consideration and purchases will take place. There is an inherent lack of awareness that must be overcome first, mainly breaking through the noise barrier with IT managers and executives who often do not take the time to consider such mobile solutions from a broad business perspective. In the competitive global marketplace of today, such lack of attention can no longer be afforded.
    from

    The TCO Advantages of a WLAN & WWAN Combination
    A Special Edition Clarity Brief Whitepaper
    August, 2005


    Their simple argument is that if your worker's time is valuable, give them all the tools to do the job, dont be rigid like Jack, but provide them with alternatives in case your main solution (e.g. cellular data) fails. If it even helps once and saved a deal then it probably paid for itself already.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 10/25/2006 at 05:41 PM.
  4. #64  

    Orange embraces wi-fi 3G, wi-fi and GPRS combo as New Year's resolution

    By Jo Best

    Published: Thursday 15 December 2005

    Orange is to launch its own wi-fi network across the UK and will be aping BT with a combined 3G, GPRS and wi-fi service for businesses.

    The France Telecom-owned telco is the last of the big four mobile operators to roll out such a service but it claims now to be the provider of "one of the largest networks" of hotspots around the country, which number some 1,700 in the UK and 12,000 around Europe.

    Orange will use partners including BT Openzone to supply its network, which will officially be launched on 19 December.

    The mobile operator is launching wi-fi-centric Business Everywhere software and tariffs in January to run alongside the Orange-flavoured hotspots.

    The software will enable Orange's business customers to use their laptop data card to connect over wi-fi, GPRS or 3G. Data allowances, which will include an all-you-can-eat bundle and cover any of the three internet access technologies, can be shared between users.

    Orange already has one professional services firm with 11,000 users signed up to the service.

    Alastair MacLeod, head of Orange business solutions, said wi-fi has now become so important to remote workers that Orange felt it had to include it among its offerings.

    He said: "The economics of a standalone wi-fi proposition are not straightforward. With a properly-integrated [teleworking] proposition, a wi-fi component is essential. You couldn't have a remote worker proposition without it."
    http://networks.silicon.com/mobile/0...9155069,00.htm

    Surur
  5. #65  
    Compact New Intermec CN3 Rugged Mobile Computer Packed With High-Performance Communications Technologies for True Supply Chain Mobility

    Smallest, rugged mobile computer first to offer a choice between GSM/EDGE and CDMA/EV-DO for maximum communication flexibility
    Integrated GPS, 3G WAN, Cisco Compatible WiFi® and Bluetooth® radios give users access to voice and high-speed data wherever they go for increased productivity
    Choice of area imager or 1.3 megapixel camera

    EVERETT, Wash., Sept. 12, 2006 – Intermec Inc. today introduced the CN3, the smallest rugged mobile computer in the world. The CN3 mobile computer is packed with communications capabilities that ensure users have access to voice and high-speed data wherever they go, for increased productivity. With integrated GPS and Bluetooth® capabilities, the CN3 increases efficiency and improves safety by enabling onscreen and hands-free turn-by-turn voice navigation. With 3G WAN and Cisco Compatible WiFi® connectivity, users can be connected with voice and high-speed data anywhere, increasing their flexibility and productivity. Flexibility is increased even further by the ability to choose between GSM/EDGE and CDMA/EV-DO. And the choice between area imager and 1.3 megapixel camera means CN3 users can scan and decode any kind of barcode or capture still images, such as signatures or video images that can be stored for later use or sent immediately anywhere in the world.

    With the introduction of the CN3, mobile workers can set aside the multiple devices they typically must carry and maintain – cell phone, GPS unit, pager, laptop, camera – for a single device. Because the CN3 is priced lower than typical rugged WAN mobile computers and combines a form factor and level of functionality previously met only by multiple devices, the CN3 offers enterprises the opportunity to re-evaluate existing technology deployments in favor of new ones that drive improved efficiency and customer responsiveness and provide a competitive edge.

    Used with mapping software, the CN3’s GPS system provides turn-by-turn directions to direct package delivery, direct store delivery and field service personnel to their destinations. In addition, its 3G WAN, WiFi® and Bluetooth® communications systems equip mobile workers with powerful voice and data services, whether they are in the field or on premise, at a cost that makes business sense.

    “The CN3 is a powerful, business-grade device, rugged enough for on-the-job use and full of the features enterprise users require, yet compact enough to slip into a pocket,” said Barry Tishgart, director, Product Management, Sprint. “Mobile workers everywhere will benefit from the CN3’s ability to connect them anywhere, any time, to the information and applications they need – and at EV-DO broadband speeds.”

    A small and thin (only 157X84X30mm) computer, CN3 includes an optional 1.3 megapixel color camera with flash that allows workers to document assets and damaged goods records at the point of transaction. Superior voice capabilities and hands-free options allow workers to increase productivity throughout their day’s work.

    The CN3 is powered by Microsoft Windows Mobile 5.0 software with the Messaging and Security Feature Pack, including Direct Push Technology for wireless e-mail, and comes with a QWERTY keyboard or an optional numeric keypad. It has 128 MB RAM, a 2D imager for scanning bar codes and a battery with enough power to last an entire shift, all housed in a case rugged enough to withstand tough work environments. The CN3’s sharp color display is readable in any light, and the entire unit is rain and dust resistant for use inside and out.

    “Windows Mobile 5.0 software with the Messaging and Security Feature Pack equips mobile users with tools to help them stay on top of their jobs through updated access to important e-mails, data, contacts and calendar items,” said Chris Hill, group product manager, Microsoft Corp. “We are pleased that Intermec is bringing the power of Windows Mobile to a low-cost, rugged form factor, for extreme environments.”

    The CN3 supports Intermec SmartSystems™, the ADC industry’s most comprehensive system for complete device management. With SmartSystems, installation, routine maintenance, application software updates, security adjustments and device settings can be performed automatically and managed remotely, dramatically reducing field downtime and increasing efficiency.

    The CN3’s standards-based design makes it easy and cost effective to integrate into most enterprises. It supports Cisco Compatible Extensions (CCX) for seamless interoperability in Cisco infrastructures.

    Intermec is a leader in supply chain technology innovations that improve productivity and reduce total cost of ownership for its customers. The CN3 was announced today at i-comm, Intermec’s annual customer conference, held this year in Toronto, Canada.
    http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS6966538946.html
    http://www.intermec.com/eprise/main/...se?pressID=705

    Surur
  6. #66  
    The Right Handheld Device for Your Driver, Your Business
    When equipping drivers with wireless handheld devices, consider their daily tasks, environment and how the information they collect will be used within the company. Here are some specific wireless device features that can benefit the T&L sector:
    • Ruggedized – A truck driver’s job is physically demanding, so his handheld computer should be able to hold up under tough conditions. Devices used by truck drivers will be left in a hot or cold truck cab, accidentally dropped to concrete, even stepped on. Traditional PDAs and computers cannot withstand this kind of abuse -- they break easily and must be replaced often. A handheld computer designed to withstand tough environments will keep working shift after shift, and save the company money in the long run.
    Ruggedized handheld computers also benefit the business itself, earning their keep many times over. Total cost of ownership studies conducted and published by the Venture Development Corporation (VDC) show a substantial savings over a three to five year period when fully ruggedized devices are used in the transportation and logistics space
    • Multiple radios – Handheld computers equipped with local area wireless, wide area wireless and Bluetooth radios accomplish multiple tasks in one device – data exchange within the physical facility, data and voice communication while out on the road, wireless printing within the truck cab. Devices with multiple radios also require less training and allow drivers to carry fewer devices to get the job done
    • Long battery life – Time spent changing out batteries is time better and more profitably spent on the road. Choose a device that holds a charge throughout a full shift so drivers can keep rolling
    • Scanning capabilities – Although many devices are capable of scanning, not all scanning mechanisms are created equal. Devices equipped with high quality scanning capabilities ensure data accuracy, even when reading partially damaged barcodes
    • RFID – The future of data collection is RFID. Consider implementing this technology now to improve fleet and inventory control, track valuable company assets and to protect your company’s present and future client relationships
    • Portable printing – Bluetooth technology allows drivers to wirelessly print a receipt at the site of delivery. This feature is especially helpful when delivering to customers that require a hard copy receipts
    • GPS – Devices equipped with global positioning capabilities allow companies to pinpoint drivers’ exact locations and track their activities throughout the day. This information is extremely valuable for managing employee productivity and improving operational efficiency
    • Signature Capture – Handheld devices equipped with signature capture automate the
    proof of delivery process and speed collections, shortening your company’s days sales
    outstanding.
    http://epsfiles.intermec.com/eps_fil...ity_wp_web.pdf

    Jack is arguing for reducing flexibility. Thats so 1970's. If the UPS man deserves WIFI, why not the salesman?

    Surur
  7. #67  
    Lastly, how much can Palm realistically charge for wifi. Other competing devices offer wifi for less, so they may not be able to charge anything extra at all. At the same time the redundancy that wifi brings to a WAN device is actually very valuable to many end users, and Palm (as argued above) leading to Palm losing a lot of sales. You don't think when Palm and HTC both try and sell their devices to a business HTC goes in touting wifi as an advantage? I can imagine Palm trying to claim to the procurement IT manager why its actually bad to have an alternate connection method available.

    Also, Jack's old argument about surface area covered by wifi vs WAN is specious. The technologies are complementary, and wlan is often available in areas wan is not, e.g. on a moving train, deep inside a building or in an aeroplane, or even a foreign country.

    Is giving your employees more options not your style, Jack?

    Surur
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post
    There's the difference, you're guessing, I am reading the trade press.
    I call B.S and you sound pretentious. Link to your "trade press" (please not that cnet article), you even said yourself just above:

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    There's lots of stuff that hasn't been made public but there's been many, many posts regarding Palm's hiring of dozens of Linux programmers.
    Posts or Trade press? Which is it Jack?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post
    Read the TC Forums with regard to the year end report.
    The year end report? What do you think everything I referenced to above was talking about?

    Show me in the year end report where it says:

    (a) they (palm) are working on their own linux OS
    (b) they have a deal in place with ALP and are preparing to deploy

    You won't find it. You will find this:
    The annual report goes on to mention that Palm is negotiating with PalmSource to "expand our development and distribution rights to the current version of the Palm OS. If we are unable to successfully conclude these negotiations, it may adversely affect our ability to develop and distribute new products based on a next-generation version of the Palm OS."
    Now show me your quotes. Please, I beg of you. Jack show me anything that says Palm, Inc. has committed to and is planning on using ALP and that negotiations are complete. Why no sources for anything you say? Can't back it up?

    I noticed how you did not address any of the comments made by Brighthand in my post. about ALP and Palm. Any reason? Specifically this one:

    If they ever came to a new agreement with Access/PalmSource, they never told anybody about it, and their general attitude has seemed to be that they wanted the matter to die quietly.

    Add that to their silence on Access' other announcements, their absence from Access developer meets and demonstrations, and the persistent buzz about a disconnect between Palm and Access, and you start to get the feeling that the only thing keeping them involved is the Palm OS intellectual property.-A. Brown, chief reviewer of Brighthand
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post
    OK....let me see if I got your postulation right....it's your view that if Palm's customers told Ed Colligan 1,000,000 to 1 that they wanted an alternative to WM5 or they going someplace else, Palm would "change nothing ?
    Where's your ROM update for the 700p? I think it's more than obvious that the PalmOS has gotten the cold shoulder from them lately. Get back to me on your current "update rally to be heard".

    I mean you PalmOS guys got an EvDO device. Nine months after WM5 (6700) and what 4 months after the Treo 700w? Lets talk about priorities with OSs.

    Can't you see that Palm is changing focus from a hardware/software company to a hardware manufacturer who modifies "X" OS for their system?

    If they can make a deal work with Access/ALP they will, if not they will move on or get bought out.
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post
    I can't move, after that last statement, I'm laughing too hard.
    I'll ignore this statement as it is becoming obvious you are running out of logical points.

    Re: that letter, it sounds kind of desperate to me. And of course Palm will continue to "support" the PalmOS in whatever way it can (very limited). Read above, if they don't get a deal for ALP they will "expand our development and distribution rights to the current version of the Palm OS."

    No ALP? Then we'll just keep beating a dead horse with PalmOS 5. They flat out say that.

    And my final point on Wifi:

    "We do believe Wi-Fi is an important technology. There's no question that we'll ultimately put [it] in our products, but at the right time." -Ed Colligan 7/06


    Sounds like they are feeling market pressure, no?
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/25/2006 at 07:12 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    Cingular 8125
    iPaq 4355
    Treo 700w
    iPaq 2215
    True. And add several Nokia and a few more HTC models to the line-up also. Top manufacturers have NOT abandoned wifi!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    keefer, wifi might not be fore you but it certainly is for many users and THAT is what counts.

    Fact is there are a lot of phones that come with wifi now and no one is regrettng that it has wifi, the only regrets are when it doesn't. The Unwired even said so much about the 750v: "no wifi, no sale".

    And battery life is a poor argument. If a device is designed properly (Palm comes close, but hardly perfect) you can get very good battery life. Read the reviews for the HTC Dash: it's rated at 5 hours talk time but actually gets 11.

    When it comes to wifi:

    "During my 7 weeks of use I have to say the battery life is by far the "BEST" I have ever used. You probably are asking "Well how can that be with a device that has 802.11?" Very easily.. HTC has done a fantastic job with the power management console on the Dash. HTC has finally found the "secret sauce" when it deals with the wireless card in the Dash. What they have done is created a control panel that will auto-power down the WiFi if it is not used for a set amount of time (user defined anywhere from 10 seconds all the way up to 20 minutes).. My personal power tests have been extremely positive in which I was able to run for a full day and a half. Yes.. a day and a half"
    (source)

    Your argument is wrong every which way. People like choice and just b/c it has wifi doesn't mean you are required to use it.

    And back on topic, yet Palm is out to pasture. Only it's dedicated (yet waning) fan base keeps it "alive".
    Thanks for reminding some people that CHOICE is important to others, even if it isn't to them.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas View Post
    Jack, you are a small god in my world...
    Just a regular "dood" trying to get thru life with the minimum amount of fuss and bother.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    True. And add several Nokia and a few more HTC models to the line-up also. Top manufacturers have NOT abandoned wifi!
    Cingular 8125 - weight comparable to that of a small brick, or automotive battery. Why? WiFi.
    iPaq 4355 - Last I checked the iPaq was a PDA, not a SmartPhone. I am indifferent to WiFi on a PDA.
    Treo 700w - needs a card, its not integrated.
    iPaq 2215 - see above.

    I don't have any qualms about WiFi being integrated into a PDA, as it isn't quite as integral a communication device as a cellphone. Go ahead, use your iPaq or your Clie at Starbucks to check email and surf for movie times. Then put it in your pocket when the battery is dead and then TAKE OUT YOUR CELL and call a friend to meet you at the movies. Or make an important follow-up call based on an email you downloaded. Just don't forget the number because your Clie/iPaq/WiFi-enabled PDA is dead in your pocket.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas View Post
    Cingular 8125 - weight comparable to that of a small brick, or automotive battery. Why? WiFi.
    iPaq 4355 - Last I checked the iPaq was a PDA, not a SmartPhone. I am indifferent to WiFi on a PDA.
    Treo 700w - needs a card, its not integrated.
    iPaq 2215 - see above.

    I don't have any qualms about WiFi being integrated into a PDA, as it isn't quite as integral a communication device as a cellphone. Go ahead, use your iPaq or your Clie at Starbucks to check email and surf for movie times. Then put it in your pocket when the battery is dead and then TAKE OUT YOUR CELL and call a friend to meet you at the movies. Or make an important follow-up call based on an email you downloaded. Just don't forget the number because your Clie/iPaq/WiFi-enabled PDA is dead in your pocket.
    Which is exactly the reason I don't use my Treo/Dash/SDA/whatever as a replacement for my iPod.

    Here's what matters: (1) Battery juice; (2) Dial tone. Here's what's nice and shiny: (3) Everything else.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas View Post
    Cingular 8125 - weight comparable to that of a small brick, or automotive battery. Why? WiFi.
    iPaq 4355 - Last I checked the iPaq was a PDA, not a SmartPhone. I am indifferent to WiFi on a PDA.
    Treo 700w - needs a card, its not integrated.
    iPaq 2215 - see above.

    I don't have any qualms about WiFi being integrated into a PDA, as it isn't quite as integral a communication device as a cellphone. Go ahead, use your iPaq or your Clie at Starbucks to check email and surf for movie times. Then put it in your pocket when the battery is dead and then TAKE OUT YOUR CELL and call a friend to meet you at the movies. Or make an important follow-up call based on an email you downloaded. Just don't forget the number because your Clie/iPaq/WiFi-enabled PDA is dead in your pocket.
    Now try to explain a new device like the HTC Dash (aka an actual modern device) w/Wifi, 11 hour of actual talk time (double what it is rated for) and extremely good wifi battery management (e.g. one user = 1 day and 1/2):

    HTC Dash
    $199 w/contract
    4.4" x 2.5" x 0.5"
    Weight 4.23 oz
    Rated talk time: 5.0 hours (actual 11; see cnet)
    Wifi: b + g built in

    Treo 700P $399 w/contract
    4.40" x 2.30" x 0.90"
    Weight 6.40 oz
    Rated talk time: 4.5 hours
    Wifi: impossible

    Your argument is very poor and antiquated.

    Wifi adds weight, huh? Thickness too?

    So you can get a heavy, thicker more expensive phone with less battery life and no chance of Wifi or a a thinner, cheaper phone with Wifi and bettery battery life (I'm not even touching the OS issue)

    Is that really a choice? Even if you never used the Wifi on the dash, it's thinner and has better battery life than the Treo and you'll save yourself money.

    And it's only going to get better as newer devices come out.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/26/2006 at 06:54 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas View Post
    Cingular 8125 - weight comparable to that of a small brick, or automotive battery. Why? WiFi. It's more likely the slide out full keyboard. I haven't seen a thin slide out keyboard device yet, unless it uses T9 and not QWERTY. And there's no way it weighs as much as an auto battery!
    iPaq 4355 - Last I checked the iPaq was a PDA, not a SmartPhone. I am indifferent to WiFi on a PDA.
    Treo 700w - needs a card, its not integrated.
    iPaq 2215 - see above.
    .
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Keefer Lucas View Post
    Cingular 8125 - weight comparable to that of a small brick, or automotive battery. Why? WiFi.
    Cingular 8125
    4.3 in x 2.8 in x 0.9 in
    Weight 5.3 oz

    Treo 700P
    4.40" x 2.30" x 0.90"
    Weight 6.40 oz

    So explain why the 700p weighs as much as a big brick then? Absence of WIFI? Maybe if Palm added WIFI it would be lighter.

    The excuses get more ridiculous as time goes on.

    Surur
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Cingular 8125
    4.3 in x 2.8 in x 0.9 in
    Weight 5.3 oz

    Treo 700P
    4.40" x 2.30" x 0.90"
    Weight 6.40 oz

    So explain why the 700p weighs as much as a big brick then? Absence of WIFI? Maybe if Palm added WIFI it would be lighter.

    The excuses get more ridiculous as time goes on.

    Surur

    Maybe they weighed the 8125 when the battery was empty
  18. #78  
    Its only natural so many trolls appear around here, Halloween is around the corner
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by LupeValenz View Post
    Its only natural so many trolls appear around here, Halloween is around the corner
    ...said one of the people with the least amount of posts on this forum.

    I think that makes you the troll.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  20. #80  
    LV, there are mostly known posters in this thread! Just because you don't agree with some, don't call them trolls!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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