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  1.    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its simple economics Jack. A little concept called return on investment. If another company is growing faster and making more money by virtue of their choices, you are actually wasting your money and possible profit by investing in a company that is underperforming the market.
    I am not interested in buying their stock, just having the best business tools I can....and the worldwide market grew 55%, much of that in China, not the US market where Palm does most of its business....at present. Accept the fact that Palm has never been a worldwide player. Palm has no goal to compete with Nokia....they have always been a small specialty manufacturer, catering to a small market niche.

    And again, as long as Palm sells more units in one year than the year before, why should they care about market share ? Market share really only matters in a stagnant market. Again, do you think Porsche cares that Toyota is now the world's bigegst carmaker ? What impact does that have on Porsche ?

    A guy wants to imprress his friends, he buys a Corvette or a Q, a guy wants the experience of optimum engineering, he buys a Porsche or a Treo.

    Two things can hurt Palm......

    1. Lennon being a dud.
    2. Not having a 2nd OS option by mid 2007.
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 08/07/2006 at 10:15 AM.
  2.    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol
    Editor's Choice awards are nice I'm sure but as a business what Palm cares about is sales. If there's a market out there for Wifi-enabled handhelds (and I maintain that there is otherwise other manufacturers wouldn't make them) it seems strange that Palm is not attempting to sell to this market, unless that it is there some reason other than simple market opportunity determining whether they do so or not. As for Palm being the 800 pound gorilla - I know you've seen the market share figures and I'm just amazed that you can come to this conclusion. Here (again) is the latest data we have
    OK, let's talk about it from your side....if there's this huge market why can no one post one single article about the rise of WiFi useage by the Ameerican public ? Wouldn't this be news ? Why can all the proponents not find one document that decribes this new US phenomenon. And I say US because Palm has not yet launched a European phone....their stated strategy is to crack that market with lennon.

    You can prove anything with anecdotes, but the numbers show sales of Palm OS devices at best flat and possibly declining. In a rapidly expanding market that's not good.
    Let's look at Palm's year end:

    2006 Revenue up 24% over 2005
    1 billion in smartphone revenue for the 1st time
    2006 Net income up 506 % over 2005 (2006 - $336.2 million,2005 - $66.4 million)

    The reason Palm's market share is declining is the Eurasian explosion in customers. Again, how many phones MoTo sells in China doesn't really affect palm. Market share is a usefull tool in a stationary market. If Porsche sells 20% more cars than last year, how is the news that Toyota became the world's No. 1 car company affect that ? Which one you wanna drive ?

    Of all your arguments I think I'd find this one most convincing - if you can substantiate it (do you have the numbers?). Even if it's true, however, it still doesn't mean there isn't a market for Wifi-enabled handhelds (that Palm could be exploiting).
    http://www.blackberrycool.com/2006/06/13/001872/

    I think this is an important point....yoiuv can weigh the validity of my arguments any way you want, but what ahs been provided to the contrary.

    1. So far how many have answered the question "If WiFi so important why do you own a Treo ?"
    2. How many web sites or other sources have been provided to support the argument to the contrary ?
    3. Why has no one said "This is how I use WiFi in my daily life and this is how many hours a week I use it". ?
    4. How many usage examples haven't started out with "imagine if ..." ?

    I don't see how this argument applies more to Palm than it does to HTC, Nokia and SonyEricsson. You think Nokia won't sell another device because they made the E61 with UMTS and Wifi? There's always something new. How about HSDPA and GPS for starters.
    HSDPA is a given in any model intended to be a GSM successor to the 700 series. Which is why I thought Palm may be going with Nitro as a low price entery which doesn't have 3G. Again, with Cingular halting their HSDPA rollout, where ya gonna use it ?

    Palm are an international company with a stated intention of expanding outside of the US. This is why they opened a new engineering centre in Dublin last year:
    Bingo ! Just last year they did this....same time they hired a VP of International Sales and same time they announced they were going after the European market with Hollywood / Lennon.

    This is, I suspect, the real reason. It's not because there isn't a market for it it's because it's too hard to get Wifi and a phone working with Palm OS. I'm betting Palm will have a (WM) Treo with integrated Wifi within 12 months. Possibly much, much sooner.
    Well we agree on this....tho I'll say 12-18.....by then there might be a place to use it. I just checked NYC....956 hot spots....22 of them free in the first 200 (didn't invest the time in looking at all 900+) ... a whopping 2.7% geographical coverage....0.06 % if ya just looking at free ones.
  3. #143  
    Jack
    a) The Treo 650 has been selling (poorly) in Europe for ages.
    b) Geographic coverage is meaningless. Whats important is temporal covarage ie. is there cover in the places where you are the most. If my work, my shopping mall, my airport, my airplane, my park, my city centre and my home have coverage, then the coverage I experience isnt 0.00%, but in the high 80-90%. You dont seem to get this point.

    I just bought my wife the HP hw6920, a Treo-like WM5 smartphone with exposed keyboard, large square screen, GPS and WIFI. She refused to move to T-Mobile, who has unlimited GPRS but poor coverage. She is therefore on Vodafone, who charges $5 per megabyte. Her job has wifi, but blocks hotmail due to virus concerns. Using her wifi-enabled PPC Phone she is now able to check her mail for free, without dragging around a laptop. Simple and real scenario, which you just dont get.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 08/07/2006 at 09:21 AM.
  4.    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    Right, you "certainly need" a color screen because you "benefit by it", but if someone would benefit by wifi, it's a different story isn't it? Why is it whenever you present an arguement, you always argue your personal situation and apply it to everyone elses?
    Where do you get this stuff from ? I gave you six independent outside sources. I then followed with 1 example from my POV......how does 1 outta 7 = "always".

    I gave my POV and asked you to respond with yours ? You haven't. I asked why you own a Treo if it doesn't have WiFi....you haven't answered. If WiFi is this big new phenomenon, where is all the articles in the press documenting it ? I see articles about the ringtones wave....I see articles about downlaoding music and the industry impacts ....where are the "WiFi sweeps America" articles ?

    Just because the majority of Palm's sales occur in America, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try and get better sales elsewhere, especially if they're actually established in other countries but aren't moving that many units.
    They are trying to enter that market...I will repeat:

    1. They hired a VP of International Sales in Nov 2005
    2. He established European headquarters and a support center
    3. They announced an upcoming product for the Europen market to be released in 3rd / 4th quarter 2006....it ain't here yet.

    That guy selling phones is not the equivalent of a Gallup Poll :-\
    The Gallup Poll uses simple random sampling to reduce bias. (Wikipedia) Does your guy do a simple random sample? Does he even work with customers outside his area? Or his store even? He represents a very small minority of phone sales and cannot be used as an accurate gauge as to whether or not people are interested in wifi on phones. I could just as easily say that I know a guy who works at a Verizon store who sells 6700's all day because it has wifi. Now how does your example hold up?
    Wikipedia...the source of malleable truth.



    He has 4 or 5 stores in NY and NJ.....and the experience is the same at all the others. It seems you saying that the desires on people in a moderate to high income, high tech base area such as Long Island would be different say in a low - moderate income area.....or in a blue collar area ? Yes, you could easily say that you know a guy but you aren't. He sells lots of Sprint 6700's (although he dropped Sprint at one of his stores cause Sprint's signal in that area is bad.) but they ain't askin about WiFi.

    When Morgan Sperlock did his "Supersize Me" documentary and he was to say that 32% of people walking into McDonalds in New York get "SuperSize" is there reason to believe that the number varies substantially from state to state ? Yeah it was higher in Texas (nations fattest state BTW) but it was not 3 tiems greater at 96%....there will be regional variations but even if Long SIalnd is an aberration, multiple it by 3, 5 or 10 and you still get a miniscule 3%, 5%, 10%. Despite the absence of WiFi, Palm still sold a hell of a lot more units this year than they did last.

    1. I discount it because you haven't given me a source
    2. I discount it because it sounds like you're only talking about public wifi hotspots
    3. I discount it because the availability of wifi has nothing to do with whether or people want wifi phones.
    I added the numbers above to make it easier to follow:

    1. I gave you the source....www.jwire.com
    2. It's illegal to access non public WiFi.
    3. That defies logic. Who would you want a diesel automobile if less than 1 in 10,000 stations carried it ? Why are so many peope, saying they skipping the 700 upgrade until EVDO is actually available in their area ?

    This isn't very strong, or compelling data. Should Palm make decisions based on what one journalist sees? I should hope not. Some other journalist could just as easily have said EVERYONE was using 6700's and were on the airports wifi, but what would that prove? Not much more than what your example has: it's just through the eyes of one person. Kinda like your cell phone guy.
    Why does every counter argument start with "could"....or "imagine if". If your argument is so persuavive, where's the real life examples ? Is the election reports that Dan Rather gave on election nite "through his eyes only" ? When Gartner reports sales, is that thru Mr. Gartner's eyes only ? No when a guy says he saw 1,500 customers, 6,000 in his 4 NY/NJ stores and they he tells me that more then 90% of them were wearing shorts and sandals, I gonna conclude that it's not winter in NY.

    When he says less than 1% ask about WiFi, I don't doubt that it might be five times as high in Seattle. But 5 times 1 is still 5%.

    You can lend any weight to the 6 sources given ya want say on a scale of 1 to 100. But the counter argument has included 0 sources. But the most fitting argument is the one you have repeatedly ignored.

    Remember my argument is not that WiFi isn't a desired feature, it's that the absence of WiFi isn't going to stop most potential Treo customers from buying a Treo. Now if ya gonna argue that point, and you do own a Treo, your argument is at best specious.
  5.    #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    You don't have to discount it because this is just another example of Jack making up another number through twisted pretzel logic to fit his argument.
    Do you own a Treo ? If you do, you defeat your own argument. Anyone who owns a Treo by definition supports my point. The lack of WiFi did not deter them from buying one.

    Please explain how the jwire source is twisted pretzel logic.

    Please explain how a guy with a bunch of stores selling cell phones is not a relevant source.

    Please explain with all the resources of the world wide web, why you can't give me one source of your own saying Mobile Phone WiFi is sweeping the nation.
  6. ls3mach's Avatar
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    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Do you own a Treo ? If you do, you defeat your own argument. Anyone who owns a Treo by definition supports my point. The lack of WiFi did not deter them from buying one.
    I own a Treo. I bought it in November 2004. At that point Wifi wasn't an important feature to me. Now it is. I would buy one without wifi, but it better have some other sweet features. I am still not sure why you are so anti-wifi, you have typed PAGES of responses in this thread alone as to why people don't need wifi. I don't need it (in the sense that I can't live without it, but then again that can be said for most people and cell phones), but it is ABSOLUTELY a determining factor when I purchase a new device. If it isn't important to you, that is fine, but you are not everyone.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    And I say US because Palm has not yet launched a European phone....their stated strategy is to crack that market with lennon.
    To say 'Palm has not yet launched a European phone' is a little misleading. Sure, Palm haven't launched a phone specifically/exclusively targeted at Europe, but I bought a Treo 600 from Orange UK on an Orange contract in October 2003 (it was released at the same time as the 600 was released in the US) and Orange also sell the 650 and have been doing so for over a year:

    http://shop.orange.co.uk/shop/show/h...ly/palmone/all

    In this instance though I bought an unlocked 650 with a Vodafone contract from Expansys. Since the 600 and 650 I bought were essentially identical to those released in the US if you conclude that they're not 'European phones' don't you have to conclude that they're not 'American phones' either?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Let's look at Palm's year end:

    2006 Revenue up 24% over 2005
    1 billion in smartphone revenue for the 1st time
    2006 Net income up 506 % over 2005 (2006 - $336.2 million,2005 - $66.4 million)

    The reason Palm's market share is declining is the Eurasian explosion in customers. Again, how many phones MoTo sells in China doesn't really affect palm. Market share is a usefull tool in a stationary market. If Porsche sells 20% more cars than last year, how is the news that Toyota became the world's No. 1 car company affect that ? Which one you wanna drive ?
    We're in danger of losing the thread here. My point was that Palm wasn't the '800 lb gorilla' you suggested. I think you'll agree that globally that is certainly true. I haven't seen figures for the US alone but am quite willing to be convinced they are a bigger fish in that pond, though whether they have the dominance to command the '800 lb gorilla' tag I have my doubts. Like I say though, show me the figures and I'm quite willing to be convinced.

    I never said Palm wasn't doing OK, only that they're not (globally) the dominant player you suggested and that there may be a market that they could be exploiting that they're not at the moment. I don't have a link to an article about the rise of Wifi usage by the American public, but then I haven't looked. I was attempting to come at this from a different perspective (one that the first post of yours to which i responded had suggested) - i.e. to try to work out what phone manufactures' market research had told them by looking at the the products of that research (the devices they produce). I'm not privy to that research and this seemed like a reasonable approach - presuming that manufactures 1) carry out market research and 2) produce products accordingly. I'll still contend that HTC, Nokia and SonyEricsson (and we should add Fujitsu-Siemens and Hewlett-Packard to that list as they also produce Wifi smartphones) are very likely to have conducted this sort of market analysis and concluded that there is a market for smartphones with Wifi.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    http://www.blackberrycool.com/2006/06/13/001872/

    I think this is an important point....yoiuv can weigh the validity of my arguments any way you want, but what ahs been provided to the contrary.

    1. So far how many have answered the question "If WiFi so important why do you own a Treo ?"
    2. How many web sites or other sources have been provided to support the argument to the contrary ?
    3. Why has no one said "This is how I use WiFi in my daily life and this is how many hours a week I use it". ?
    4. How many usage examples haven't started out with "imagine if ..." ?
    Again, I wasn't attempting this sort of analysis. You may be right, but I do think you have to reconcile the conclusion your questions imply with the observation that the major manufacturers are making Wifi devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    HSDPA is a given in any model intended to be a GSM successor to the 700 series. Which is why I thought Palm may be going with Nitro as a low price entery which doesn't have 3G. Again, with Cingular halting their HSDPA rollout, where ya gonna use it ?
    England

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Bingo ! Just last year they did this....same time they hired a VP of International Sales and same time they announced they were going after the European market with Hollywood / Lennon.
    True, but given that the opening of R&D centre was announced in October 2005, it's probable that the planning for this is well over a year old.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well we agree on this....tho I'll say 12-18.....by then there might be a place to use it. I just checked NYC....956 hot spots....22 of them free in the first 200 (didn't invest the time in looking at all 900+) ... a whopping 2.7% geographical coverage....0.06 % if ya just looking at free ones.
    As it happens, I have pretty good coverage in my home town right now:

    http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news.php?newsId=4210

    Doesn't include my house (where I don't really need it anyway) but does include my work place and a number of other places where I spend quite a lot of time. As I've posted before, it's mostly the availability of this (free!) network that has me thinking that Wifi for me would be quite a good idea. I'll wager that they'll be an awful lot more people thinking much the same thing as more and more of these public networks become available.

    Something to consider. You say that in 12-18 months there might be a place to use Wifi. I'll contend that there are places with public Wifi now (like my home town!), but leave that aside for a moment and suppose that you're right in the 12-18 month estimate. Most phone contracts in the UK are 12 or 18 months and I believe that 24 months contracts are quite common in the US. So if you bought a phone today chances are you'd still have that phone well into the 12-18 month window you suggest. How annoying would it be to be contract-locked to Wifi-less phone when you there's a Wifi network you want use? Even with the time-scale you suggest, wouldn't it be a good idea to make Wifi part of your decision making now if you're buying a smartphone? Perhaps that's what HTC, Nokia, SonyEricsson, Fujitsu-Siemens and Hewlett-Packard have in mind.
    Last edited by marcol; 08/07/2006 at 11:53 AM.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Again, if you are gonna type on a Treo when you have a full size KB and screen available, yoiu are doing it "cause you can" not because it is the most efficient tool available. I can hang up the picture my wife brought home today by getting my compressor and nailer outta the garage but I can be more productive with just a hammer.
    That isn't necessarily my point. I can name many reasons why I wouldn't use my laptop to go on the Internet. For instance, I am laying on my bed. All of a sudden I have the urge to check my email, but I don't want to plug in and turn on my laptop. So, what I would do is grab my Palm TX (since my Treo 700p does not have WiFi) and turn on WiFi, connect and check email. I believe this might have been your point. Anyway, at the time, it is the most efficient tool because it would take too much time and effort to power up the laptop.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I can walk down my street with my wife and see 10 gorgeous women....how dores that change my sex life ?
    Do you really want me to answer this?


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well that's my point....the new Nitro has only a 1200 mah battery comared with the 650/700's 1800.....why did this happen ? What did they squeeze in phsically so that the battery size had to be cut ?
    They didn't sqeeze anything in, just out. They are creating a sub-$300 device with a thumb board. Basically a direct competitor to the Q (with a different technology, I know, Q = CDMA and Nitro = GSM). IMHO, the Treo 700p is not a competitor to the Q, it is superior.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    No difference of opinion there.....especially in Europe whee it's much more common. All I am saying is it's not gonna put too much of a hurt on palm's financials with regard to US sales until there's more infrastructure in place. Now if someone else starts matching Palm's features and provides WiFi on top of that, that would hurt as people will say "all things being equal, why not ?" That's the key right now all things are not equal.....as long as the Treo remains easier to use and oifers what it does, WiFi isn't gonna be enough to make people make other choices.
    Nokia E70. I was going to get that, but the fact that my family uses Verizon pushed me towards Verizon.

    The problem is, if Palm waits for more WiFi infrastructure, it will be too late. Also, if Palm waits for better technology, it will be too late. Palm is in this for business, and business = risk, big risks. If you don't take a risk, you will *NEVER* move forward, never.

    There is absolutely no reason why Palm should not update their WiFi card drivers to work with the Treo 700p. We know that the hardware supports the card (Treo 700w, have also gotten the light to blink with hack that Shadowmite did, at least one of the betas), and, as a developer, it would not be difficult to change a few lines of code to get the driver to work. AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $there$ $is$ $only$ $one$ $error$ $preventing$ $the$ $driver$ $from$ $working$. $If$ $the$ $phone$ $had$ $to$ $be$ $turned$ $off$, $that$ $is$ $not$ $difficult$. $So$ $far$, $just$ $leaving$ $the$ $v1$.$2$ $drivers$ ($minus$ $the$ $PmNetLib$, $my$ $Treo$ $has$ $a$ $newer$ $version$) $on$ $my$ $Treo$ ($they$ $don$'$t$ $work$, $but$ $I$ $wish$ $that$ $they$ $did$), $I$ $have$ $had$ $no$ $problems$, $no$ $resets$, $no$ $nothing$ ($just$ $a$ $crash$ $when$ $I$ $try$ $to$ $use$ $it$).

    I could give you a list of 50 names (including myself) that would use the driver, and if they did not already own one, buy the WiFi SD card. If you look at it, Palm probably would not pay their programmers more that $30/hour. So, if you have two developers working on the driver for two 8 hour work days, that is 32 hours total. You multiply 32 * 30 = $960. Each WiFi card costs ~$80. Palm probably gets ~$60 or more a card. So 50 - 1 (me) = 49 * $60 = $2940. $2940 - 960 = $1980. Palm wins, customer wins. If Palm doesn't create the drivers, Palm loses, customer loses since the only device that can use the card that Palm currently sells is the E2.

    If I were CEO of Palm, I'd have my devs on this driver ASAP.


    -Donald
  9. #149  
    Wow, this discussion has gotten out there. But its an interesting one nonetheless.

    My lady has a TX and a RAZR. She is tired of carrying both and enjoys the fact the the University of Maryland has free wifi all over campus so she can use her TX. In talking the past week plus, she expressed interest that she might be finally ready to move to a smartphone. However, there were some concessions that she is not willing to make. One of the first is that the smartphone has to have wifi. And although she likes the palmOS, she likes wifi more now that she has a use for it. Of course, this knocks out the Treo for her because she doesnt want a SD card (she has a 512MB card with all her music on it and that is another thing she wont compromise on). She loves the look of the M600, and wants one pretty badily, but of course, it has no wifi and so that too is knocked out. The main thing for her, phone and wifi. EVERYTHING else is secondary (probably except for a reall good checkbook program - Splash Money is quite a well put together one in her opinion).

    Is this the example of most users? Nope. But it does highlight something that I am sure that Palm and others do notice. Critical mass for wifi in a smartphone is NOW for users who have done the PDA and phone thing, users who have done the RAZR thing. Palm knows that the PalmOS is a great platform foundation for this, however, they also know that Garnet just cannot make it far enough for them and ALP is too far away to do anything with. To that end, Palm IS committed to wifi, but for them the right time isnt anything more than when the choice of OS works for them and for the users they are trying to hold onto and gain.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  10. DHart's Avatar
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    #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    2. Here in the 23rd largest county in the US we have 0.000089 % coverage for WiFi. On average that's 1 out of 11,236 people having acess available at any point in time....or one hot public spot every 40 square miles....one free public hot spot for every 413 square miles. How do you discount this fact ?

    3. The article I posted that said 95% of the people the journalist sees traveling are using Treos. Has anyone come up with an article saying 95% of the people I see are using WiFi.
    These are perfect examples of stretching iffy information beyond the snapping point. Just how can you be so ****-sure that these numbers are accurate? You make statements based on what you claim are rock solid facts. It is preposterous to state that your county has 0.000089% coverage for WiFi. Sure its not 0.000090%? Are you positive the census for your county is right? And how do you know how many access points there really are? Is it possible that all of your rock solid facts have foundations that are sinking in mud because the statistics you are using are based on guesses or surveys that are doubtful to begin with?

    There's not a possibility that someone might skew the numbers for personal gain is there? Like the census (no one ever argues over that, do they?) and the estimates of a journalist GUESSING at the percentage of people he sees using Treos when he travels. Now THERE is a valid sampling technique.

    Jack, people skew numbers every day to fit their purposes. If you talk to WiFi promoting organizations, WiFi is taking over the world very rapidly. If you talk to the CEO's of cellular service providers, WiFi is a dead end technology with little interest and no future.

    I am going to show my age here a little. "There are 8 million stories in the Naked City." Antoine of MMM's example is just one of them. There are others. Just because you don't see the need doesn't mean there aren't many many others who DO see the need. If Palm releases a phone with integrated WiFi - no cards, no sleds - I predict it will be a big seller.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Where do you get this stuff from ? I gave you six independent outside sources. I then followed with 1 example from my POV......how does 1 outta 7 = "always".
    That doesn't change the fact that your statement was hypocrtitical. And if you look through this thread, you're the only one trying to argue your own personal situation as their main arguement. The rest of us are coming with solid facts 7 out of 7 times, not thinking that because we've given 6 sources, we can now put in our own opinion.

    Look at what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I certainly need a color screen, I benefit by it, perhaps I don't need 3G but I would benefit by it. However I can't benefit from WiFi with coverage at a fraction of a 1% coverage.
    You said YOU don't need wifi. Ok, but what does that have to do with the rest of us? Do you really think anyone else but you cares that you can't benefit from wifi? This is what I'm saying. Instead of talking about the general population, you single yourself out, as if you're the only Treo owner and Palm is only trying to sell to you. And how can you preach so much about necessity, and wants and needs, but then you say you need a color screen, when color screens aren't necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I gave my POV and asked you to respond with yours ? You haven't. I asked why you own a Treo if it doesn't have WiFi....you haven't answered. If WiFi is this big new phenomenon, where is all the articles in the press documenting it ? I see articles about the ringtones wave....I see articles about downlaoding music and the industry impacts ....where are the "WiFi sweeps America" articles ?
    When did you ask for my point of view? I didn't see it anywhere...and what does my POV matter? It's the facts that count....no one ever said wifi was a big new phenomenon... it's not big, it's not new, and it's not a phenomenon. But obviously, if all the other major smartphone makers are putting wifi in their phones, there must be some demand for it don't you think? Do you think they're putting it there for fun? And don't start listing stuff about one-handedness and other things that aren't in the products of Palm's competitors, that argument is getting old and useless. And why do we have to look for articles before we know something is official? Why should I hold the lack of articles higher than the fact that Palm's competitors are embracing wifi?

    Wikipedia...the source of malleable truth.



    He has 4 or 5 stores in NY and NJ.....and the experience is the same at all the others. It seems you saying that the desires on people in a moderate to high income, high tech base area such as Long Island would be different say in a low - moderate income area.....or in a blue collar area ? Yes, you could easily say that you know a guy but you aren't. He sells lots of Sprint 6700's (although he dropped Sprint at one of his stores cause Sprint's signal in that area is bad.) but they ain't askin about WiFi.
    My point still stands that this guy and is 5 stores in NJ and NY (wow, 2 out of 50 states!) cannot and does not represent the entire smartphone market. There's no way you can dispute that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    When Morgan Sperlock did his "Supersize Me" documentary and he was to say that 32% of people walking into McDonalds in New York get "SuperSize" is there reason to believe that the number varies substantially from state to state ? Yeah it was higher in Texas (nations fattest state BTW) but it was not 3 tiems greater at 96%....there will be regional variations but even if Long SIalnd is an aberration, multiple it by 3, 5 or 10 and you still get a miniscule 3%, 5%, 10%. Despite the absence of WiFi, Palm still sold a hell of a lot more units this year than they did last.
    Not sure where you're going with this one...buy comparing McDonald's to Treos sounds ridiculous... there's a difference between a $5 meal and a $650 smartphone.

    I added the numbers above to make it easier to follow:

    1. I gave you the source....www.jwire.com
    2. It's illegal to access non public WiFi.
    3. That defies logic. Who would you want a diesel automobile if less than 1 in 10,000 stations carried it ? Why are so many peope, saying they skipping the 700 upgrade until EVDO is actually available in their area ?
    1. Well nowhere in your post did I see the source cited, but it doesn't matter. I couldn't find the article, but more than likely that article is only talking about public wifi availability, which is not the only type of wifi available.
    2. Right. So if I connect to my home network or my university network, I'll be breaking the law. And I can't wait to hear about people getting fired from their jobs because they accessed their workplace's wifi network.
    3. People w/o EvDO are skipping the 700p because there's not much else on it that would warrant the cost of the upgrade. That's a 700p thing, not an Ev-DO thing. If the 700p had BT 2.0, GPS, AD2P and many other features that phone geeks crave, I'm sure many would be willing to overlook availabilty of Ev-DO becaue then it would actually be worth the price. My statement was about public wifi, I forgot to specify that. Having access public wifi isn't necessarily why some people want wifi.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Why does every counter argument start with "could"....or "imagine if". If your argument is so persuavive, where's the real life examples ? Is the election reports that Dan Rather gave on election nite "through his eyes only" ? When Gartner reports sales, is that thru Mr. Gartner's eyes only ? No when a guy says he saw 1,500 customers, 6,000 in his 4 NY/NJ stores and they he tells me that more then 90% of them were wearing shorts and sandals, I gonna conclude that it's not winter in NY.
    The counter argument is a "could" or "what if" because it shows that there's no solid base to your argument. If it had a solid base, there wouldn't be a way to say "could" or "what if". The reason why this argument isn't solid is that the journalist

    -Is only talking about people traveling
    -Hasn't seem all the people in America and taken note of who has Treos who has some wifi enabled device
    -Hasn't seen all the people in the smartphone market. Even if he didn't see all of America, he'd still have to see the entire smartphone market before his 95% figure would actually apply anywhere else other than his personal experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    When he says less than 1% ask about WiFi, I don't doubt that it might be five times as high in Seattle. But 5 times 1 is still 5%.
    Right, but that doesn't proove anything.

    You can lend any weight to the 6 sources given ya want say on a scale of 1 to 100. But the counter argument has included 0 sources. But the most fitting argument is the one you have repeatedly ignored.
    I'm not going to look back and search for these 6 sources, because I already know that your argument based on these sources wasn't very solid. It was probably something like "wifi is only available in 0% of the world" or "2 people have access to wifi".

    Remember my argument is not that WiFi isn't a desired feature, it's that the absence of WiFi isn't going to stop most potential Treo customers from buying a Treo. Now if ya gonna argue that point, and you do own a Treo, your argument is at best specious.
    That doesn't mean Palm doesn't lose a lot of customers because of wifi. And it's not about how many sales they're going to lose, it's about how many more they can gain. There are people who say "Ok, I've had a Treo 600, have a Treo 650, but I don't know if I should pay $650+tax for the few upgrades and get a 700p. Maybe I should get a 6700 or an MDA and get more functionality for less money". Palm puts wifi in the Treo 9000, and suddenly that person may change their mind and stick with Palm instead of jumping ship. Not saying that's always going to be the case, but there's no disadvantage to adding wifi, and it'll only increase Palm's sales (assuming they do it right).
  12. Tim_treo's Avatar
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    #152  
    Jack, I agree with you completely. There's next to zero reason for any business professional to need wifi on their smart phone. The only possible thing I can think of is if the cell signal doesn't reach an interior room. Other than that, it's a want, and not a need, and 99% of the cases where a person thinks they need the wifi, things could be done more efficiently. I'd fire them too. Wifi is not expanding nearly as much as EVDO etc... and I hope Palm keeps playing things smart and keeps wifi off the treos.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_treo
    Jack, I agree with you completely. There's next to zero reason for any business professional to need wifi on their smart phone. The only possible thing I can think of is if the cell signal doesn't reach an interior room. Other than that, it's a want, and not a need, and 99% of the cases where a person thinks they need the wifi, things could be done more efficiently. I'd fire them too. Wifi is not expanding nearly as much as EVDO etc... and I hope Palm keeps playing things smart and keeps wifi off the treos.
    Ok, I am not going to beat a dead horse too much more.

    I can think of a few reasons that a corporation would issue a WiFi based device that could use their WiFi connection, but I am going to refrain from stating them because people will ignore "the facts" and control with their opinion. As you said, some companies get 0% cellular coverage in their offices and you could use WiFi for, um, how about VoIP with the company VoIP server. There you go! Absolutely free calling to the headquarters in Asia. No need to pay for those 50 cents per minute plus calls to Asia. Save your self some money by spending it (that is the only way to do business, either spend money and do business, or don't do it at all).


    As I stated before, it would be Palm's biggest mistake to fail to innovate by excluding WiFi from at least one of their devices. Many new smartphones release by companies such as Nokia have WiFi included. Palm would be playing it dumb to keep WiFi off of their devices. If Palm wants to enter the global market and be a much stronger global player, their gonna need to step up to the plate. Not including WiFi just shows that Palm would rather be a follower (by 2-3 years) and not a leader. And as I have said before (at least I think), Palm has been able to get away with this because they are practically the only ones offering PalmOS powered smartphones (I know, there is GSPDA and Qool).

    As I have said before, and I will stress again. Both parties can have it their way. Take a look at the E2 and TX (or T5 and TX). The E2 is a lower end PDA, capable of everything that the TX does, minus the WiFi (and the larger RAM). Same with the T5, just that the T5 and TX are more comparable with RAM. The E2 has a very low price as well as the TX. If you don't want WiFi, fine, buy an E2. If you want WiFi, spend a little more for it (plus more RAM and a bigger screen). If you want more RAM or a bigger screen, but don't care for WiFi, fine, buy a TX and don't use WiFi.

    I can tell you that WiFi is not as Deadbeat as some make it to be. The only reason that usage has not jumped like it has in Europe is because the **** cellular carries here in the US think that nickel and diming their customers is cool. I think that that will begin to slow down once people see that they could do what T-Mobile is doing (UMA, get the best of both worlds and still make a pretty penny).

    Not to mention, for me personally, I get better WiFi coverage at my house (where currently I spend about 50 to 70 percent of the time) then I get Verizon coverage (Sprint coverage is worse).

    Plus, Jack, I am sorry to hear that one of the largest counties in the US has so very little WiFi coverage. Come to the North Bay and San Francisco where you will encounter so many WiFi hotspots (both public and private), that you'll choke (I don't want this to be taken as a threat). Also, try New York City. I have never actually been there, but by guessing from the high ratio of people per square mile, they are bound to have as many WiFi networks as we have here.

    Also, has anybody ever heard of a new technology called WiMax?? Backwards compatible with 802.11b/g(I think n too) with cellular like WiFi coverage (I think that those facts are correct). Don't tell me WiFi isn't growing. Edit: I think that I am wrong here. But, anayway, look at 802.11n.

    Now, to make WiFi work on my brand new 700p (somehow).

    -Donald
    Last edited by dkirker; 08/08/2006 at 04:56 PM.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker
    Ok, I am not going to beat a dead horse too much more.

    I can think of a few reasons that a corporation would issue a WiFi based device that could use their WiFi connection, but I am going to refrain from stating them because people will ignore "the facts" and control with their opinion. As you said, some companies get 0% cellular coverage in their offices and you could use WiFi for, um, how about VoIP with the company VoIP server. There you go! Absolutely free calling to the headquarters in Asia. No need to pay for those 50 cents per minute plus calls to Asia. Save your self some money by spending it (that is the only way to do business, either spend money and do business, or don't do it at all).
    Lol, dude... I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, but you do bring up a great point with VOIP
  15. DHart's Avatar
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    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker
    Ok, I am not going to beat a dead horse too much more.

    I can think of a few reasons that a corporation would issue a WiFi based device that could use their WiFi connection, but I am going to refrain from stating them because people will ignore "the facts" and control with their opinion. As you said, some companies get 0% cellular coverage in their offices and you could use WiFi for, um, how about VoIP with the company VoIP server. There you go! Absolutely free calling to the headquarters in Asia. No need to pay for those 50 cents per minute plus calls to Asia. Save your self some money by spending it (that is the only way to do business, either spend money and do business, or don't do it at all).


    As I stated before, it would be Palm's biggest mistake to fail to innovate by excluding WiFi from at least one of their devices. Many new smartphones release by companies such as Nokia have WiFi included. Palm would be playing it dumb to keep WiFi off of their devices. If Palm wants to enter the global market and be a much stronger global player, their gonna need to step up to the plate. Not including WiFi just shows that Palm would rather be a follower (by 2-3 years) and not a leader. And as I have said before (at least I think), Palm has been able to get away with this because they are practically the only ones offering PalmOS powered smartphones (I know, there is GSPDA and Qool).

    As I have said before, and I will stress again. Both parties can have it their way. Take a look at the E2 and TX (or T5 and TX). The E2 is a lower end PDA, capable of everything that the TX does, minus the WiFi (and the larger RAM). Same with the T5, just that the T5 and TX are more comparable with RAM. The E2 has a very low price as well as the TX. If you don't want WiFi, fine, buy an E2. If you want WiFi, spend a little more for it (plus more RAM and a bigger screen). If you want more RAM or a bigger screen, but don't care for WiFi, fine, buy a TX and don't use WiFi.

    I can tell you that WiFi is not as Deadbeat as some make it to be. The only reason that usage has not jumped like it has in Europe is because the **** cellular carries here in the US think that nickel and diming their customers is cool. I think that that will begin to slow down once people see that they could do what T-Mobile is doing (UMA, get the best of both worlds and still make a pretty penny).

    Not to mention, for me personally, I get better WiFi coverage at my house (where currently I spend about 50 to 70 percent of the time) then I get Verizon coverage (Sprint coverage is worse).

    Plus, Jack, I am sorry to hear that one of the largest counties in the US has so very little WiFi coverage. Come to the North Bay and San Francisco where you will encounter so many WiFi hotspots (both public and private), that you'll choke (I don't want this to be taken as a threat). Also, try New York City. I have never actually been there, but by guessing from the high ratio of people per square mile, they are bound to have as many WiFi networks as we have here.

    Also, has anybody ever heard of a new technology called WiMax?? Backwards compatible with 802.11b/g(I think n too) with cellular like WiFi coverage (I think that those facts are correct). Don't tell me WiFi isn't growing.

    Now, to make WiFi work on my brand new 700p (somehow).

    -Donald
    Donald -

    My sentiments exactly. I created a firestorm on an earlier thread when I stated that VOIP over WiFi would be a killer application on the Treo. Not for everyone, but certainly very valuable for those who could use it. And it would have the added effect of increasing the competition (and therefore driving down prices) for data services offered by the cellular providers - which would benefit everyone.

    Of course, I am sure we will hear that if that were true it would have already happened because WiFi is already available for Treos. And I believe a VOIP client is also being used by some with all-you-can-eat data plans thru the cellular networks. But the WiFi is an add-on that either displaces a memory card or turns the Treo into a unwieldy kludge. Using a VOIP client thru an all-you-can-eat data plan is also a kludge that still leaves the leverage for pricing in the cellular providers pocket. And, truth be told, the cellular providers would try to kill that activity if they could. And this is just in the US. In other places in the world, all you-can-eat data plans are non-existent.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    Lol, dude... I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, but you do bring up a great point with VOIP

    Yeah, you might be right about him being sarcastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    Of course, I am sure we will hear that if that were true it would have already happened because WiFi is already available for Treos. And I believe a VOIP client is also being used by some with all-you-can-eat data plans thru the cellular networks. But the WiFi is an add-on that either displaces a memory card or turns the Treo into a unwieldy kludge. Using a VOIP client thru an all-you-can-eat data plan is also a kludge that still leaves the leverage for pricing in the cellular providers pocket. And, truth be told, the cellular providers would try to kill that activity if they could. And this is just in the US. In other places in the world, all you-can-eat data plans are non-existent.
    Unfortunately those data plans aren't "all-you-can-eat", and Verizon has even put a clause in their contract about not being able to use VoIP and even streaming video and audio, yet, the Verizon manual talks about streaming.

    So, in this case, having WiFi would be better because one could use their company's WiFi connection and VoIP system for cheaper and more reliable calls, than with a cell phone provider.

    Anyway, IMO, WiFi and 3G are the future for the Treo platform.

    -Donald
  17.    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack
    a) The Treo 650 has been selling (poorly) in Europe for ages.
    b) Geographic coverage is meaningless. Whats important is temporal covarage ie. is there cover in the places where you are the most. If my work, my shopping mall, my airport, my airplane, my park, my city centre and my home have coverage, then the coverage I experience isnt 0.00%, but in the high 80-90%. You dont seem to get this point.
    No sense addressing the European sales issue again.....Palm has REPEATEDLY stated that to date (Nov 2005) they had made no real effort to market their products in Europe....and that they will begin that effort with the Lennon. The don't sell well in Europe cause NO ONE has ever made a concerted effort to sell them.

    And I most certainly do get the point.....apologizing for using my own personal situation before I get hung for it but I am responding to *your* personal approach.....within 20 miles of my home I am NEVER in a place with WiFi.....my home WiFi is turned off. I was in Borders today and asked the clerk about the WiFi access in his store....his response ...."We have WiFi access ?"

    Look at the other thread on the UK poll.....73% of mobile users do not even wanna look at the web....at all....on a phone. You may be interested in this and coming here you may find 2, 3 or 5 people who think they are interested in this but rememebr, most of the people here are using Treos and they have already proved my point.....most of the peeps here are still buying their Treos despoite the fact that they don't have WiFi. You keep trying to paint me with saying that WiFi is useless....that's not my position.....that people are not giving up their Treos to geta phone with WiFi is my position.

    I just bought my wife the HP hw6920, a Treo-like WM5 smartphone with exposed keyboard, large square screen, GPS and WIFI. She refused to move to T-Mobile, who has unlimited GPRS but poor coverage. She is therefore on Vodafone, who charges $5 per megabyte. Her job has wifi, but blocks hotmail due to virus concerns. Using her wifi-enabled PPC Phone she is now able to check her mail for free, without dragging around a laptop. Simple and real scenario, which you just dont get.
    OK, that makes 2 real users actually documenting how they use Wifi so far....ya wife and the college kid.

    I have a question tho....when ya wife is at work, what does she do and why is she dragging things around ? I am trying to imagine a job description that has a person in a building within hotspot range, moving all around said building and never getting a chance to sit at their own deskspace or area.
  18.    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_treo
    Jack, I agree with you completely. There's next to zero reason for any business professional to need wifi on their smart phone. The only possible thing I can think of is if the cell signal doesn't reach an interior room. Other than that, it's a want, and not a need, and 99% of the cases where a person thinks they need the wifi, things could be done more efficiently. I'd fire them too. Wifi is not expanding nearly as much as EVDO etc... and I hope Palm keeps playing things smart and keeps wifi off the treos.
    If they in an interior room.....

    - why not use a land line without all the "can you hear me now" stuff
    - why not use a PC w/ a full size KB and screen ?
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    And I most certainly do get the point.....apologizing for using my own personal situation before I get hung for it but I am responding to *your* personal approach.....within 20 miles of my home I am NEVER in a place with WiFi.....my home WiFi is turned off. I was in Borders today and asked the clerk about the WiFi access in his store....his response ...."We have WiFi access ?"
    Many sales reps or clerk are oblivious to their surroundings and some of the things that they sell (this is why I don't go to Best Buy, sorry, don't want to start a flame war, but they don't know how to drop the geek talk and allow their customers to understand, nor do some of them know what they sell).

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Look at the other thread on the UK poll.....73% of mobile users do not even wanna look at the web....at all....on a phone. You may be interested in this and coming here you may find 2, 3 or 5 people who think they are interested in this but rememebr, most of the people here are using Treos and they have already proved my point.....most of the peeps here are still buying their Treos despoite the fact that they don't have WiFi. You keep trying to paint me with saying that WiFi is useless....that's not my position.....that people are not giving up their Treos to geta phone with WiFi is my position.
    Check out my response at: http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=121783

    The thing with this is that the Treo is not just an end user device, but also a business device. Note my comments about VoIP. If I were running a big business I'd rather save more money on international calls by using my company's WiFi and VoIP system and more reliable network.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    OK, that makes 2 real users actually documenting how they use Wifi so far....ya wife and the college kid.
    Excuse me! I beg your pardon. I would rather go by my real name, Donald. Thanks.
  20.    #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    That doesn't change the fact that your statement was hypocrtitical. And if you look through this thread, you're the only one trying to argue your own personal situation as their main arguement. The rest of us are coming with solid facts 7 out of 7 times, not thinking that because we've given 6 sources, we can now put in our own opinion.
    Where ? Where's one single posted fact ? Ever single pro WiFi argument has started with "what if....imagine .....or "could".....where's the single url supporting anything you said. Lots of "I could just as easily say...." but you didn't go to a store and get the data.

    You said YOU don't need wifi. Ok, but what does that have to do with the rest of us? Do you really think anyone else but you cares that you can't benefit from wifi? This is what I'm saying. Instead of talking about the general population, you single yourself out, as if you're the only Treo owner and Palm is only trying to sell to you. And how can you preach so much about necessity, and wants and needs, but then you say you need a color screen, when color screens aren't necessary?
    I begginning to think you are reading this ona 2" screen and not seeing all the words ?

    I made one reference to my personal outlook on the weighting of features and asked me to give you yours....how many times did I ask....2 or 3 ?....how many times di you respond ? 0

    -I said out of 1500 people walking into a local store only a handful asked about WiFi
    -I said the same was true in all 4 of the guy's stores.
    -I said this journalists never sees WiFi enabled phones when he travels and gave the url
    -I said I surveyed busines sleaders in 12 states and not one uses mobile WiFi

    NONE of these are my personal oulooks, opinions, needs or anything else. It's a collection of data in the real wide world.

    When did you ask for my point of view? I didn't see it anywhere...and what does my POV matter?
    I quoted the section twice....I doubt a 3rd time would make a difference. When I offered how I would rate or "weigh" the various features, Iasked anyone who chose to respond to state how thay would weigh those same features.....still no takers.

    It's the facts that count....
    So where are they ? The only fact you have given is "other manufacturer's are putting WiFi in their products. That doesn't tell me anything about why the people are buying them. I think the owner of a phone store telling me that he sells dozens of 6700's a month. When asked to demoinstrate the features, they ask about phone clarity, how to get e-mail, how to get on the web.....yet no one asks about and when he brings it up, no one wants to hear about WiFi. That tells me a hell of a lot more than an entry on a feature list

    My point still stands that this guy and is 5 stores in NJ and NY (wow, 2 out of 50 states!) cannot and does not represent the entire smartphone market. There's no way you can dispute that.
    Ever heard the term "preponderance of evidence" ? One fact may not lead you to a conclusion but one after another after another....

    1. Cnet polls
    2. local store polls
    3. national magazine article

    ....you don't recognize a pattern here ?????

    But whenever as poll is taken, there is a deviation or "estimated margin of error". These margins are no where near the realm that you seem to believe. But here's an easy way to prove why your argument in this regard is unsupportable. For the sake of srgument, look at the presidential election. The overall lection results were:

    51% Bush
    48% Kerry

    Now your argument is that the results from 2 states can in no way give an idea of the direction people are going. So rather than go random, lets pick the worse states as far as varying from the results.

    Utah 72% Bush / 26% Kerry
    Massachusetts 62% Kerry / 37% Bush

    So we can see that the worst possibloe error we can have is a factor of:

    72/51 = 1.41
    62/48 = 1.29

    So if I take the 1% in my store owner sample and multiply it by 1.41....we wind up with a whopping 1.41 % And that's on an issue where regional differences affect the results.

    The simple fact is when you poll people on product selction, the results really don't vary much from state to state. Whether it be McDonalds, pickup truck choices, favorite colors, men's favorite woman's shapes, woman's favorite male eye color, shampoo, teh rsulkts really don't vary from state to state.....teh Baskin Robbins in California sells a;lmost the exact same ration of Vanilla to Chocolate in california as they do in NY

    If ya wanna take that argument tho....would you say NY / NJ is more or less techno oriented than Utah and Wyoming ? I feel pretty safe bettin the ranch on NY / NJ. So in that resoect, the NY/NJ numbers are if anything swayed more towards people being interested in WiFi.

    The counter argument is a "could" or "what if" because it shows that there's no solid base to your argument. If it had a solid base, there wouldn't be a way to say "could" or "what if". The reason why this argument isn't solid is that the journalist
    All the arguments are all "What if I wanted "...."I could if I wanted" ... how come there's no "I do this every day" arguments ?....why is there not a single verifuable source anywhere....if your arguments are to hold about a sampling in one location doesn't prove anything, then why can you not find a site where 80% of the people reviewing or offering user comments on WiFi have 80% saying "Yeah I wouldn't buy this cause it has no WiFi. Why can't you find one journlaist saying "Yeah, I see peeps using WiFi everyday ?"

    Not saying that's always going to be the case, but there's no disadvantage to adding wifi, and it'll only increase Palm's sales (assuming they do it right).
    Never said it was.....all I am saying is that all available indicators which I have come across are NOT showing that people are not buying a particular phone cause it doesn't have WiFi. This still leaves room for:

    I woulda been happier if it had WiFi but the feature set it does have was what I made my decision on.
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