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  1. #101  
    In the meantime, I have an unused Palm SD Wifi card..... Why oh why won't you release the driver for the Treo650 Palm??? broken promises.....
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    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    You have to give credence to the user reviews oin Cnet....there's simply no way around it. If people are logging on to rant about what the phone doesn't have, why aren't they complaining about the lack of WiFi.....if it's the big "must have" feature, why are so few people complaining about its absence ????. Why is the Q selling so well w/o WiFi ? Why did MoTo not include it ? Why did Verizon not insist on it ? Let's not look at what's being offered, let's look atw aht people are buying and the Q is obviously selling well because looks matter to a lot more people than WiFi does.

    Read the polls done by official pollsters in the other thread about data virgins where half of the peopel who tried data said they don't want to try it again !

    The biggest argument for , other than college campuses, has been it would be a nice alternative.....but how many have said, I would be in a position where it would be my only option x number of hours a week. I'd like to have 700 TV channels as an option but I can only view one at a time. It be nice to have the same show starting at 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 on 5 different channels but it's hardly going to be amajor factor in my purchase desicision on whetehr to get cable ro Direct TV as too many other features differecnes take precednce.

    Having WiFi today is akin to having 3G in January 2005. Nice alternative in those rare instances you happen to be in one of the few test cities where it was available.
    1. Why should we give rants on CNet more credence than rants here?

    2. The Q is half the price of a Treo. That, a more mass market oriented design, and wider distribution might have something to do with higher Q sales. I can guarantee that people are not buying the Q because it DOESN'T have Wi-Fi.

    3. Why didn't Verizon insist on it? Please...the stance of carriers regarding Wi-Fi is well documented. And Verizon is on the forefront of actively working to kill Wi-Fi spread and adoption. (Disclaimer: I have no comercial interests in any way with advancing Wi-Fi adoption - other than I would like to be able to use it on my mobile phone).

    4. Yes, "data virgins" as you call them are bumfuzzled by new technology. Nothing new here. And people didn't trust automobiles when they first arrived either.

    5. I think we have seen numerous instances cited here on TC where people (that are not data virgins) have situations where Wi-Fi is exactly what they need.

    There have been numerous threads about "yes Wi-Fi vs no Wi-Fi" on TC. Why do you think the subject keeps surfacing? Because there is a real demand - right now - by a significant segment of the TC community.

    I think I am like many other people here - 18 months to 2 years into my current Treo. I am not willing to wait another 9 months for Palm to finally introduce a phone with integrated Wi-Fi. I would rather not leave POS, but if Palm doesn't offer what I want, I'll move on - no animosity, just a better device with more capability.
  3.    #103  
    Well Cnet is more of a general public site that TC is....TC is kinda a gook joint.

    The rate for WiFi missing complaints was identical for the 700w and the Q

    I won't argue that a significant portion of the TC community wants WiFi. But if we say that the TC community represents the 10% of the Treo community which we'll call PowerUsers...and let's say that 10% of TC "needs" (not wants) WiFi, we are left witha need "general public "need" of 1%. I don't see Palm jumping thru hoops to satisfy 1%....especially when all their work will go in the toilet when they come out with the enxt POS.

    If WiFi was a great "need" TC Store would be selling a lot more of these.

    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--515.htm
    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--400.htm

    How many peeps here own one of the above ?
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE

    If WiFi was a great "need" TC Store would be selling a lot more of these.

    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--515.htm
    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--400.htm

    How many peeps here own one of the above ?
    I don't have the Wifi card because I have a 650. If I had a 700w I absolutely would have a wifi card.

    I don't have the Enfora Sled because it's too damn big. Oops, I used a potty word.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    I don't have the Wifi card because I have a 650. If I had a 700w I absolutely would have a wifi card.

    I don't have the Enfora Sled because it's too damn big. Oops, I used a potty word.
    Add to the fact that I don't want to lose sd card storage by using an sd wifi card.
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  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well Cnet is more of a general public site that TC is....TC is kinda a gook joint.

    The rate for WiFi missing complaints was identical for the 700w and the Q

    I won't argue that a significant portion of the TC community wants WiFi. But if we say that the TC community represents the 10% of the Treo community which we'll call PowerUsers...and let's say that 10% of TC "needs" (not wants) WiFi, we are left witha need "general public "need" of 1%. I don't see Palm jumping thru hoops to satisfy 1%....especially when all their work will go in the toilet when they come out with the enxt POS.

    If WiFi was a great "need" TC Store would be selling a lot more of these.

    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--515.htm
    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--400.htm

    How many peeps here own one of the above ?
    Yes, TC doesn't represent a majority of Treo users, but that doesn't mean there aren't Treo owners outside of TC that don't want wifi. And you have to take into consideration those that wanted a Treo, but didn't buy it because it didn't have wifi.

    The SDIO wifi card doesnt sell too much because it only works with the 700w, and most people want wifi on a PalmOS Treo.

    The sled doesn't sell too much because it's big, expensive, requires separate batteries,
  7.    #107  
    Now here's something that would move it from a convenience to a real need....well if you live in SF / SJ area and commute on train .... well in a year or so anyway.

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1998829,00.asp

    On the other hand.....

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1998452,00.asp

    Wi-Fi-enabled computers are sitting ducks for code execution attacks because of gaping flaws in wireless drivers shipped on both Mac and Windows systems, security researchers warned at the Black Hat Briefings security conference here.....

    During the demonstration, the researchers were able to take complete control of the MacBook via a specific vulnerability in the device driver code that sits between the operating system and the wireless card.
  8. #108  
    That's Windows and Mac specific though, no such exploit (AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK) $has$ $been$ $found$ $for$ $mobile$ $phones$ $because$ $of$ $the$ $different$ $operating$ $systems$.
  9.    #109  
    http://it.slashdot.org/it/06/08/03/129234.shtml'"

    "As reported by Ars Technica and the Washington Post, two hackers have found an exploitable vulnerability in the wireless drivers used by Apple's MacBook. Machines are vulnerable if they have wireless enabled and are set to connect to any available wireless network, fairly close to their default state, and the exploit allows an attacker to gain "total access" - apparently a remote root. Although the demo, performed via video at the BlackHat conference, takes aim at what one of the hackers calls the "Mac userbase aura of smugness on security," Windows users shouldn't get too smug themselves: according to the Post article, "the two have found at least two similar flaws in device drivers for wireless cards either designed for or embedded in machines running the Windows OS." Ultimately, it may be the attacks against embedded devices which are the most threatening, since those devices are the hardest to upgrade."
    Now which OS is more secure....Windows or Windows Mobile ? These attacks are at the device driver level .... the stuff that loads "under" the OS. Devcie driver code writing is often subbed out...
    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/secur...60_seco_1.html

    Apple -- like many computer manufacturers -- outsources the development of its wireless device drivers to third parties. In Apple's case, the developer in question is Atheros, a company that devises drivers for a number of different wireless cards, each designed with drivers specific to the operating systems on which they will be used.
    The group writing the device driver for the WiFi in my laptop could very well be the same group writing it for the next Treo. The chip on the wireless card in my laptop isn't going to be that much different from the one in a pocket PC....and therefore the device drivers will be very similar.

    As MS and AV vendors work to block holes in the OS more and more malicious code writers are trying to sneak under the radar by attacking at the device level.
  10. #110  
    My interim solution is to use Bluetooth to connect to broadband at work and at home. Cheaper than getting the Enfora sled - all I needed was 2 BT USB adaptors and installing the free mrouter.
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  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by palmdoc2005
    My interim solution is to use Bluetooth to connect to broadband at work and at home. Cheaper than getting the Enfora sled - all I needed was 2 BT USB adaptors and installing the free mrouter.
    Howzat? How do I do this?
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    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    Howzat? How do I do this?
    I guess he read this

    http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8...th-windows-xp/
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by palmdoc2005
    My interim solution is to use Bluetooth to connect to broadband at work and at home. Cheaper than getting the Enfora sled - all I needed was 2 BT USB adaptors and installing the free mrouter.
    This is slower than wifi though right? (and the range is less).
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  14. TazUk's Avatar
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    This is slower than wifi though right?
    Yes, but so will the internet connection so there shouldn't be too much difference

    ...and the range is less.
    Yep
  15. DHart's Avatar
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well Cnet is more of a general public site that TC is....TC is kinda a gook joint.

    The rate for WiFi missing complaints was identical for the 700w and the Q

    I won't argue that a significant portion of the TC community wants WiFi. But if we say that the TC community represents the 10% of the Treo community which we'll call PowerUsers...and let's say that 10% of TC "needs" (not wants) WiFi, we are left witha need "general public "need" of 1%. I don't see Palm jumping thru hoops to satisfy 1%....especially when all their work will go in the toilet when they come out with the enxt POS.

    If WiFi was a great "need" TC Store would be selling a lot more of these.

    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--515.htm
    http://store.treocentral.com/content...59-60--400.htm

    How many peeps here own one of the above ?
    Jack -

    About 50% of Treo owners want Wi-Fi. Palm sells millions of Treos. Therefore millions of Treo owners want Wi-Fi.

    This line of logic is about as much BS as the numbers you come up with. It is understanding that being an engineer, numbers mean a lot to you. But the underlying logic has to have some validity.

    Many people attribute this quote to Mark Twain, but it was actually spoken by Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister of the UK from 1874 - 80:

    "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statics."

    You are entitled to your opinion is that Wi-Fi is too premature or not as convenient as advocates think it would be or there are better ways to connect. But it is not wise to create tenuous extrapolations from questionable statistics just to support your opinion.
  16.    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    About 50% of Treo owners want Wi-Fi. Palm sells millions of Treos. Therefore millions of Treo owners want Wi-Fi..
    Without data to support your position, your position is simply "unsupported". When you go to user review sites, why aren't 50% of the people complaining about WiFi missing ?
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 08/04/2006 at 08:58 PM.
  17.    #117  
    As a follow up to the hacking thing

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08...ers_bypass_os/

    The disappearance of easy-to-find flaws in the major operating systems has pushed vulnerability researchers to branch out from finding security issues in core system software and instead concentrate on the device drivers and client-side agents present on all PCs, security experts said on Wednesday at the Black Hat Briefings.

    The two research projects underscore the move away from finding flaws in the operating system, Maynor said.

    "Now that the OS layer is harder to crack, you are seeing a lot more people going higher up the stack, to applications, or lower, to device drivers," Maynor said.

    The trend is not just evident at the Black Hat Briefings. Last year, Maynor investigated a variety of device drivers in Windows XP and Linux, finding numerous flaws. Other researchers have focused on Bluetooth drivers, in one case finding lax passwords allowed hackers to eavesdrop on the audio signals from passing cars.

    The duo found they could fingerprint more than a dozen wireless chips and their associated firmware just by eavesdropping on the wireless traffic. Using the information and a database of driver flaws found by a homegrown data-fuzzing tool, Maynor and "johnny cache" could compromise not just a MacBook but also Linux and Windows XP laptops, the duo claimed.

    "While we attacked an Apple, the flaws are not in the Mac OS X operating system but in the hardware device drivers," Maynor told SecurityFocus.
    Clearly the OS is not the open door here....for example, my car is not running any OS and 802.11 stack isn't only found in Windows, Mac and Linux OS's
  18. DHart's Avatar
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Without data to support your position, your position is simply "unsupported". When you go to user review sites, why aren't 50% of the people complaining about WiFi missing ?
    Jack -

    You missed my entire point completely. Read the next sentence in my last post:

    "This line of logic is about as much BS as the numbers you come up with. It is understanding that being an engineer, numbers mean a lot to you. But the underlying logic has to have some validity."

    My point is that the "data to support your position" that you cite are no more valid than the sarcastic example I made. If you want to state an opinion fine. But it is not necessary to stretch your calculations to the breaking point just so you will have "supportable data".
  19. #119  
    I think what DHart is trying to say is that you can't just look at any website and say because there's only XX% of users complaining about wifi, that's the actual percentage of wifi. Just as TC does not represent a majority, neither does Cnet, and you can't make an accurate estimate off one or two websites. You could say less than 10% of people on Cnet and TC care about wifi, but that doesn't mean it applies to the whole US or wherever else Palm sells their products.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Without data to support your position, your position is simply "unsupported". When you go to user review sites, why aren't 50% of the people complaining about WiFi missing ?
    Maybe because 50% (or more) of Treo and MotoQ owners don't go to these review sites? Like I said above, these sites don't represent the majority of smartphone buyers, and to make an estimate of the whole market based on that website will skew your data greatly. Now if all smartphone owners were required to (or of their own free will) review their phone on Cnet or some other site, and we saw that there wasn't a 50% wifi complaint rate, then your point would be valid. However, that's not the case, and your data is more of a guess than anything. And anyone can make their own guess and say they're right. I think 99.999999% of Treo owners want wifi, therefore, Palm needs to put wifi in their Treos before 99.999999% of their customers jump ship.
    Last edited by Trevante; 08/05/2006 at 02:54 PM.
  20.    #120  
    Again, on what basis do you support that position ?.....just by throwing out a statement that something is BS doesn't make it so. I can say that "the logic one uses to say that Neil Armstrong actually landed on the moon is about as much BS as the logic that the scientists used to deduce a means to get there"....that doesn't make the landing disappear....it doesn't make the 400kg of moon rocks disappear.

    No calculations were stretched even a hair. One outta 20 is one outta 20 no matter how ya slice it. Where are all these WiFi people that no journalist can spot them. Look at this guy for example:

    http://blogs.zdnet.com/mobile-gadgeteer/?p=69

    Show me one published account showing public WiFi in significant use among the general population. Of the people here in TC, I think it's safe to say by far most are using a Treo and obviously the absence of WiFi didn't make them buy something else.

    Every business conceren does marketing studies. McDonalds don't put outlets on the corner unless the population is there. A high end clothing store doesn't put a store in a neighborhood unless demographic studies show there is not only sufficient population but also an average income of a minmimum level to support their product line. When Palm's done this, they obviously came to a conclusion that it wasn't quite yet prime time for WiFi.

    As for accessibility....Just used http://www.jiwire.com/ to find my public hotspot options within 20 miles

    Hotels - 6
    Starbucks - 7
    Borders - 3
    UPS Store - 2
    McDonalds - 1
    Restaurant - 2
    Library - 3
    Cell Phone Store - 1
    Airport - 1
    Office Building - 1
    SportsPlus - 1
    Other - 3

    31 public hot spots in 1,257 square miles of geographical area or an average of ONE every 40+ square miles.....whooo hoo ! Closest one is 12.9 miles away....5 are free, 2 of the 5 charge $4 an hour to park.

    Being generous and giving the HotSpot a 100' range, that's 0.0011 square miles of coverage or a geographical coverage of just 0.000089 % ....and this in the 23rd largest county (population wise) in the US. In other words, my chances, even in this populous an area (1.5 million peeps), of being within a public hotspot at any given time are greater than one in a million. Where does that put people in the 100th largest county or the 1,000 largest ?

    I am 30 times more likely to die of a shark attack and 8 times more likely to die from getting hit on the beaner with airplane parts than find myself in a WiFi spot if I randomly travel within that 20 mile radius.

    Again, I am speaking in a business sense here. If I was on the campus where two of those hot spots are, I'd argue differently. Here's an exercise:

    Let's pretend for a minute that a new Palm Linux / WiFi device was just announced for next month and you are talking to the CFO in my company and he's asking you about whether you like your new 700p. After answering his question, start with a "By the way" and make your case for him buying you the new 900plw.

    As for accessing private networks again is it the best way to do things ? My son had a friend over and they wanted to try out a new PSP game. His friend didn't have the latest PSP update which was required for the game so my son asked me to give his friend the key to our SOHO WiFi network (We set it up when we got the router, nothing using it so it's usually turnd off). Yeah right, I ain't giving no kid, no acquantance, no client, no nobody a key. Anybody viists here and needs access, we have plenty of spare puters.

    Besides by the time he coulda set up the network connection and typed in the key I popped out the PSP Memory card, droped it in my laptop, downloaded the file and popped it back in to the PSP. At that point he'd be at the beginning of a 10 minute download.

    Mobile WiFi will be a great tool....someday. Right now it's like having a GPS but they haven't launched all the satellite's yet so you only gonna have coverage < 1% of the time. Once the infrastructure is in place people will be able to take advantage of it on a regular basis. For the great majority of US residents, that day isn't here yet unless you are gonna insist on doing something "cause you can". If ya live in Seattle, on a college campus, that's different but again if we are talking about a company making manufacturing decisions on this small of a market segement, I don't see a handset vendor concluding "the demographics clearly show that we need WiFi".

    Now maybe if they'd start putting iLoo's on every corner, this whole conversation would be moot.

    http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-999509.html

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