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  1. #61  
    Wow, I look away for a few days and this thread explodes!

    In the end what we think doesn't matter. Palm will eventually have to add Wifi because all of their competition will also. I'm trying right now a Nokia E61 and it has Wifi along with quad band GSM and UMTS. They are also adding Wifi to other high-end phones. If phone companies like Nokia are routinely adding Wifi, Palm will be forced to do so also to remain competitive feature wise. Doesn't really matter if it's a good idea or not, it will have to happen. The only real question is when (and my money says it won't happen on the announced Treo for Vodaphone).
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  2. #62  
    Wifi on a Treo probably won't happen until ALP is released. I don't think any of the new WM5 Treos coming out will have wifi, but I may be wrong.
  3. #63  
  4. #64  
    Yes, but sadly (at least for me), Lennon is a WM5 device. So, there are no difficulties to add WiFi. The Nitro device is not planned to have UMTS or WiFi (although WiFi support is rumored, so you never know).

    Who knows, the quote about WiFi might not even refer to PalmOS devices. As Trevnte said, WiFi might not happen until ALP (I am going to go out on a limb and assume that Palm will use ALP when it comes out and realize that FrankenGarnet is getting to unstable).

    I just hope they figure out a way to get the WiFi SD card to work on the 700p.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    Yeah and Palm said they were working on Wifi drivers when they released the 600. I do hope they offer this but I will not believe it until I see it. Also based on the vague and "future" words in the article this makes me almost certain the the vodaphone announced device won't have Wifi.
    And remember what Colligan said when the 650 came out about their own WIFI card not working on the 650? I believed he vowed that they would get it to work.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  6.    #66  
    http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmad.../07/whyfi.html

    Another author's POV

    I think the one complaint about Treos that has consumed more ink and bandwidth, has to be Palm’s refusal to include a WiFi radio in any of the existing Treo devices.

    Now don’t get me wrong…I think WiFi is a terrific invention, and love it in my house. I also like how it enables the quick distribution of vital data across enterprises (like colleges and hospitals), and allows mobile email and web on inexpensive handhelds.....

    The idea of a Treo is to provide mobile professionals with a compact, un-tethered communications station. I define a communications station as a device enabling un-tethered voice, data, web, email & PIM…with a robust enough battery life to enable useful field performance.
    In order to achieve this hoary goal, a nimble balance has to be maintained between overall size/weight, screen size, functionality and battery life.

    WiFi puts a terrible strain on battery life, and immediately compromises the device’s ability to sustain useful field performance. WiFi also requires that you go to where the HotSpot is…which is the antithesis of what the Treo has been designed for. Further, the growing proliferation of EvDo and G3 networks make the importance of WiFi speeds a (soon-to-be) moot point for Treonauts. In a nutshell, the Treo was designed to be a phone that lets you get your calls, voicemail, email, web and corporate data when you need it…wherever you happen to be. WiFi is for the person who can schedule time to get to a HotSpot, sit down and browse at their leisure.

    What’s my point? Simple: WiFirebrands shouldn’t use a Treo. They need bigger screens, more memory, a richer web-browsing experience, and don’t mind being tethered to a Hotspot. Their focus is on web/email/data. Not a phone that lets you get these things on the fly, without running out of juice in a short time. For these people, a Treo would be an uncomfortable compromise, requiring them to keep changing batteries, or find an electrical outlet.

    The same goes for the Europeans: If your biggest issue is the charges that you run up on data plans, then your focus is on data. The Treo is too small a device to make heavy web-browsing palatable. For these WiFirebrands, a robust WiFi PDA is their best investment, coupled with a great cellphone. I would also suggest using the time that you spend bashing Palm in the forums, agitating with your elected officials to force unlimited data on your wireless carriers.
  7. #67  
    I think the one complaint about Palm PDA's that has consumed more ink and bandwidth, has to be Palm’s refusal to include a color screen in any of the existing Palm PDA's devices.

    Now don’t get me wrong…I think color is a terrific invention, and love it in my house. I also like how it enables the quick distribution of vital data across enterprises (like colleges and hospitals), and allows mobile entertainment and web on inexpensive handhelds.....

    The idea of a Palm PDA's is to provide mobile professionals with a compact, un-tethered information station. I define a information station as a device enabling un-tethered voice, data, web, email & PIM…with a robust enough battery life to enable useful field performance.
    In order to achieve this hoary goal, a nimble balance has to be maintained between overall size/weight, screen size, functionality and battery life.

    Color puts a terrible strain on battery life, and immediately compromises the device’s ability to sustain useful field performance. Color also requires that you go to where the shade is…which is the antithesis of what the Palm PDA's has been designed for. Further, the growing proliferation of Ipod videos and laptops make the importance of color a (soon-to-be) moot point for Palm PDA users In a nutshell, the Palm PDA's was designed to be a device that lets you get your appointments, email, web and corporate data when you need it…wherever you happen to be. Color is for the person who can schedule time to get to a shady place, sit down and browse at their leisure.

    What’s my point? Simple: colorrebrands shouldn’t use a Palm PDA's. They need bigger screens, more memory, a richer web-browsing experience, and don’t mind being tethered to a shay place. Their focus is on web/email/entertainment. Not a device that lets you get these things on the fly, without running out of juice in a short time. For these people, a Palm PDA's would be an uncomfortable compromise, requiring them to keep changing batteries, or find an electrical outlet.

    The same goes for the Europeans: If your biggest issue is the charges that other PDA's are colour, then your focus is not information. The Palm PDA's is too small a device to make heavy web-browsing palatable. For these colorrebrands, a robust color laptop is their best investment, coupled with a great cellphone. I would also suggest using the time that you spend bashing Palm in the forums, agitating with your elected officials to force unlimited colour on your wireless carriers.
  8. #68  
    The refusal to incorporate mp3 playback got to consume more electrisity in the Palm V/m500 days.
  9. #69  
    I think the one complaint about Treos that has consumed more ink and bandwidth, has to be Palm’s refusal to include a WiFi radio in any of the existing Treo devices.
    Partly because they can't do so without a new OS, which they've just now started on.

    Now don’t get me wrong…I think WiFi is a terrific invention, and love it in my house. I also like how it enables the quick distribution of vital data across enterprises (like colleges and hospitals), and allows mobile email and web on inexpensive handhelds.....
    But what should the price of the device matter? And what about the expensive smartphones that still include wifi?

    The idea of a Treo is to provide mobile professionals with a compact, un-tethered communications station. I define a communications station as a device enabling un-tethered voice, data, web, email & PIM…with a robust enough battery life to enable useful field performance.
    In order to achieve this hoary goal, a nimble balance has to be maintained between overall size/weight, screen size, functionality and battery life.
    The Treo isn't just for "mobile professionals", Palm has to appeal to other markets too. And even some mobile professionals could use wifi every once in a while.

    WiFi puts a terrible strain on battery life, and immediately compromises the device’s ability to sustain useful field performance. WiFi also requires that you go to where the HotSpot is…which is the antithesis of what the Treo has been designed for. Further, the growing proliferation of EvDo and G3 networks make the importance of WiFi speeds a (soon-to-be) moot point for Treonauts. In a nutshell, the Treo was designed to be a phone that lets you get your calls, voicemail, email, web and corporate data when you need it…wherever you happen to be. WiFi is for the person who can schedule time to get to a HotSpot, sit down and browse at their leisure.
    This is assuming you want to use the wifi connection as the main internet connection of the Treo. Wifi use, as mentioned by surur is meant to be intermitent, not continuous. The point of having wifi is to be able to get online should your 3G connection not be available, or if you need access to a local network via a local connection. And the point about going to the hotspot is moot if the hotspot is always around you, or if you always have hotspots where you are.

    What’s my point? Simple: WiFirebrands shouldn’t use a Treo. They need bigger screens, more memory, a richer web-browsing experience, and don’t mind being tethered to a Hotspot. Their focus is on web/email/data. Not a phone that lets you get these things on the fly, without running out of juice in a short time. For these people, a Treo would be an uncomfortable compromise, requiring them to keep changing batteries, or find an electrical outlet.
    Yea, that's really gonna help Palm sell more Treos; tell people who want wifi they should look at other devices. Imagine if Palm took this same attitude of basically recommending other devices to their potential customers. And just because people want wifi, doesn't mean they need bigger screens, more memory and better web browsing, they just want wifi on their Treo, that's all. As far as battery life, well it's not like you can't turn it off when you're not using it....

    The same goes for the Europeans: If your biggest issue is the charges that you run up on data plans, then your focus is on data. The Treo is too small a device to make heavy web-browsing palatable. For these WiFirebrands, a robust WiFi PDA is their best investment, coupled with a great cellphone. I would also suggest using the time that you spend bashing Palm in the forums, agitating with your elected officials to force unlimited data on your wireless carriers.
    The whole point of a smartphone is so you don't have to carry a phone and a PDA at the same time. Instead of carrying a phone and a PDA, I think most Europeans would rather get a WM5 smartphone with built in wifi. Even if they could get unlimited data on their carriers, it would probably still be very expensive, and most would probably still rather stick to wifi. And once again, there's that attitude of "well, you don't need a Treo, get something else". That's not how companies want to market their products. Not saying this guy should be advertising for Palm, but to me, I don't think it's fair to say that people who want wifi are not "good enough" or "fit for" the Treo.

    This argument is very narrowminded and one-sided. It focuses only on the use of wifi as the main connection and does not take into consideration situations where wifi may be useful to some people. As surur pointed out in his post, wifi is like color screens: it's really not needed, but it does help in some situations.
  10. #70  
    Very interesting article:

    "The Wi-Fi in Your Handset"
    By MATT RICHTEL, NYT
    Published: July 29, 2006
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/te...html?th&emc=th
  11. #71  
    Not again, but I am compelled to respond.

    I don't recall saying this before (but I think I did). WiFi on my TX puts hardly any strain on the battery (not like the SD card did on my T3). I can sit for a good couple hours with WiFi on and have only a little bit of strain. That is why there are power saving settings. And, if somebody is doing things like listening to streaming radio, the (power sucking) color lcd screen could be turned off.

    Also, as a note, recently the CEO of a circuit board testing company told me that one of the reasons he loves his Treo (he recently moved from a 650 with Sprint to a 700w with Verizon) is because he does not have to have his laptop around.

    Here is your perfect reason for WiFi.
    Also, another reason why WiFi would be perfect. I am going to Cal Poly SLO. I checked Verizon's EVDO coverage, there is none in San Luis Obispo. Now, if I am some where on campus where there is WiFi coverage and I want to casually browse the Internet or check my email and I don't have my laptop, then if the Treo was WiFi capable I could use WiFi. Now, I am sure that your response would be, well if there is WiFi then there is a computer nearby. My response, I don't use public computers to check my email, and I prefer not to do the same with general browsing. The Treo allows my to leave my laptop behind and not need to rush to a public machine. Not to mention, I don't feel like trying to come up with $45/month or sucking up my voice minutes (which will be shared amongst my family) to browser the Internet.

    My TX (with WiFi ON) probably gets equivalent if not better battery life than my MAcBook Pro.

    Anyway, it is an interesting point of view, and I am not denying the fact that it cannot be held. But, it is my opinion that if Palm wants to survive in the corporate smartphone market, they are going to need to step up to the plate and offer WiFi like all of their competitors.

    -Donald
  12. #72  
    I just check the Vodafone UK website. They don't seem to have any unlimited data plan. The only option is "Data usage (per MB) £2.35". So wifi makes sense oversea.

    Not in the US though.
  13. #73  
    I was trying to buy the HTC Tytn from them a few days ago, and I wanted to buy a data bundle. The most they would sell me was 20 MB/month, the rest at £2.25/MB (100MB was reserved for blackberries for some reason). The HTC Tytn has HSDPA, and at 1.8 Mbit/sec, it could download that in about 1.5 minutes. I decided, despite Vodafone superior coverage, it was just not a reasonable deal. Its like buying an expensive sports car that is only allowed to go 20 mph.

    Surur
  14.    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker
    Also, as a note, recently the CEO of a circuit board testing company told me that one of the reasons he loves his Treo (he recently moved from a 650 with Sprint to a 700w with Verizon) is because he does not have to have his laptop around.
    I agree with him. But the presence or absence of WiFi had nothing to do with my decision. If I do a trip with a full schedule, I just bring the 650.....if I have considerable downtime....meaning I can get an hour or more time of work in, the laptop comes tho. If I gotta spend an hour typing on a thumboard it's worth the 11 pounds for a 17" screen and a full size KB.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker
    Here is your perfect reason for WiFi.
    Also, another reason why WiFi would be perfect. I am going to Cal Poly SLO. I checked Verizon's EVDO coverage, there is none in San Luis Obispo. .... Not to mention, I don't feel like trying to come up with $45/month or sucking up my voice minutes (which will be shared amongst my family) to browser the Internet.
    A campus is WiFi heaven. Most college students spend a substantial % of their time on campus, in class, library, dorm etc and the infrastructure is there. A college is therefore a perfect place for a WiFi device. Not many college students parents or cash starpped students however are gonna spring for a laptop and a $600 phone.

    On a family plan for $9.99 a month your share of the family's minutes is small and young people tend to burn a lotta time on the phone anyway, especially the ladies. OTOH, I have 850 minutes a month for 4 phones.....I have 7000 rollover minutes. Most people I ask, have tons of rollover moinutes cause who wants to take the chance with those 45 cent a minute overages.

    It seems like the argument for driving the latest top of the line Porsche.....

    "Here is your perfect reason for driving the Porsche....in germany, we have the Autobahn and you can enjoy cruising along safely at 140 mph cutting your travel time in half betwen visiting clients."

    Super...The Porsche is a fine automobile, safe at hi speeds because of its engineering, provided the roads are designed and available for it. But poor ole me living in the US, though I love my Porsche, I can hardly use savings in travel time as a reason for purchasing it cause I simply can't travel at those speeds anyhwere.

    Unfortunately unlike the roads, I am sure we will see WiFi infrastructure expand and once the infrastructure reaches critical mass, it will be a must have feature.

    Anotehr example is computer speed.....who would argue that more speed isn't better ? But is it needed ? When should I replace my secretary's computer ?

    1. When it is 75% of the speed of the SOTA
    2. When it gets below the avergage PC computer speed.
    3. Whwn it's teh slowest PC in the office.
    4. When I see her type a word and there is a lag before the letters appear on screen.

    The office geek's answer is 1.......the CFO's answer is 4

    As long as that number of users with "must have WiFi" is small, don't expect them to change. We know it's small because otherwise the 700w would have had WiFi. On the POS side, shoud Palm take say 8 engineers and put them in a room and say "get us WiFi on the POS" ? Or does it make more sense to say "Let's use WiFi as our big "new feature" to move peeps from older POS devices into our new Linux devices." We'll know if I guessed right in 2007 tho it will be another year or so before most of us can look at our figurative minutes log and see WiFi breaking the 10-20% of total minutes level.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    As long as that number of users with "must have WiFi" is small, don't expect them to change. We know it's small because otherwise the 700w would have had WiFi.
    But we know the Treo 700w is selling poorly. Would it be selling better if it had more attractive features, such as WIFI and 64MB memory, like its competitors?

    When you are selling something, you need to give customers not just what they need, but what they want too.

    Surur
  16.    #76  
    I don't think the difference would be significant....I know speaking to the Owner of the local store near me, he says he gets maybe 1 or 2 customers a week who even ask about WiFi. How many Q (w/ 64 MB RAM) buyers do ya think ask about WiFi ? I also note that the user rating of the Q w/ 64 MB is lower than the 700w (6.2 to 6.4). For those wondering the user rating for the 700p is 7.7 .

    I went over to Cnet and read the 1st 20 user reviews on the Q......one mentioned no built in WiFi as an issue for them. I saw 2 in 40 mention it as an issue on the 700w. Those are pretty small numbers even among the "geek" crowd.

    Now we have to keep in mind that that subset of people who will bother to go on a review site and invest the time to make comments is a more demanding set than the "average" consumer. I'd therefore say at the very least that the likelihood of a person in this subset seeing lacking WiFi as a critical missing feature is gonna be at least 2 to 4 times that of the general population.

    But even ignoring that for a moment, I don't exactly think palm would be all that excited by a 1 in 20 or 5% increase....not to mention that fact that of those espousing missing WiFoi, it was only one in a litany of other gripes.

    So I'd have to say based upon the evidence at hand, no, the inlcusion of WiFi would not have had a significant impact on Treo 700w or MoTo Q sales.
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 07/30/2006 at 02:13 PM.
  17. #77  
    You don't know that, you can't just make assumptions just based off what you see at your local store. I could just as easily say that everyone I've seen in the Sprint store asks for wifi and therefore wifi would greatly increase Treo sales. There's really no way to know how many people buy for wifi and how many don't until you create a Treo with wifi and a Treo w/o wifi (that's equal in all other aspects) and see how they sell in comparison to each other.
  18.    #78  
    I didn't base it on what ***I saw*** at the store....I based it upon:

    1. The store owner telling me he sees about 500 smartphone customers a week and only 1 or 2 ask about WiFi.

    2. The user opinions on the sites and for the phones listed....again, less than 1 in 20 user reviews are saying that lack of WiFi is the reason they don't like the 700w/MotoQ.

    That plus personal experience which I gave somewhat less weight to

    3. Going to national engineering conventions several times a year and asking people, primarly business owners whether their organizations purchase WiFi enabled smartphones and having not yet heard a "Yes".

    4. Questioning attendees at my technical seminar on "Protecting Data from Theft, Sabotage and Terrorism" and asking (average audience 120 engineers) what means they use to acquire / distribute data and never seeing more than 1 or 2 hands raised for mobile WiFi....less than 3 or 4 will even use WiFi at the office....maybe 4-7 on average will use it at home for laptops and / or entertainment systems.

    Note that at the last presentation, I asked how many would use it once our county completes it's "border to border" WiFi rollout and well over half said that once it was that pervasive, they would use it.
  19. DHart's Avatar
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    #79  
    Jack -

    It seems that Nokia - the largest supplier of mobile phones in the world - has decided that offering WiFi is important. Oh...also Motorola, TeliaSonera, and T-Mobile have decided it is important also. But, by all means, please cite some more statistics about your local store or engineering meetings. Did it ever occur to you that at a meeting in at the turn of the century that most people would say they don't wouldn't an automobile that much because there were so few roads they could be used on?

    I suppose you could argue that we are here in the US and they are there in Europe so this has no practical relevance for us. And that the availability of UMA is non-existent here. And that WiFi has limited availability. Both facts are true. But valued technology has a way of spreading. Just like roads and automobiles.

    You can argue data points all you want, but global events point toward a widespread adoption of WiFi capable handsets.

    I don't understand clearly why Palm has not offered integrated WiFi. Could be marketing problem with the carriers as some say or a technology problem as others say. But clearly, if Palm does not introduce integrated WiFi soon, they will be at a disadvantage in the market place.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2006...pcworld/126594
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I didn't base it on what ***I saw*** at the store....I based it upon:

    1. The store owner telling me he sees about 500 smartphone customers a week and only 1 or 2 ask about WiFi.

    2. The user opinions on the sites and for the phones listed....again, less than 1 in 20 user reviews are saying that lack of WiFi is the reason they don't like the 700w/MotoQ.

    That plus personal experience which I gave somewhat less weight to

    3. Going to national engineering conventions several times a year and asking people, primarly business owners whether their organizations purchase WiFi enabled smartphones and having not yet heard a "Yes".

    4. Questioning attendees at my technical seminar on "Protecting Data from Theft, Sabotage and Terrorism" and asking (average audience 120 engineers) what means they use to acquire / distribute data and never seeing more than 1 or 2 hands raised for mobile WiFi....less than 3 or 4 will even use WiFi at the office....maybe 4-7 on average will use it at home for laptops and / or entertainment systems.

    Note that at the last presentation, I asked how many would use it once our county completes it's "border to border" WiFi rollout and well over half said that once it was that pervasive, they would use it.
    You still haven't given us any data that shows a large scale of smartphone buyers. Those situations you mentioned all represent a minority of smartphone purchasers.Either way, this argument won't go anywhere because you don't have any proper way of proving your point, and I actually agree with you, wifi isn't a deal breaker for most people, but that doesn't mean it's not starting to become important in smartphones.

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