Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 163
  1. #41  
    Ok, I hate to keep adding to this little war and continue to beat what I feel should have been a dead horse posts ago.

    JackNaylorPE, we get that you don't appear to need or want WiFi, but, there are many people that want it. Right now I am flourishing from the "fruits" of WiFi. My first question is, my house is not wired for ethernet, now why in the heck would I run a 50 ft cable from the router in my bedroom out to the living room?

    The next thing. Why is using a Treo with WiFi to be productive a bad thing or something to fire somebody over? Here is a very good example:

    It is 5pm, time for this employee to go home, he has just shut his computer down (256MB Ram, 1.2 GHz P4, Windows XP SP 2 with Norton AV, I don't care if this is not the config of any of the PCs at your work). We'll say it takes this machine 30 seconds to load to the login screen, 5 seconds to log in, 2 minutes to load all of the required programs (Norton AV) as well as connect to the network and setup all virtual drives and shares, and then 1-2 minutes to shutdown (plus one second to press the power switch on the power bar because PCs waste energy in idle). He realizes, ooops, I forgot to mail this 50kb report to the client! He remembers that he has it on the 1GB SD card in his Treo 800p (pretend that is a new WiFi Treo). Now, wouldn't it be far more productive to press then power button on his Treo (+1 second), connect to the works WiFi network (+3 seconds), open the email app and compose an email with the attached report and send it (+1 minute, it is not a 400 page email, just 30 characters) and then press the power button on the Treo (+1 second) rather than go through the hassle of booting up the PC and wait for Windows to chug? I think it would be stupid to fire somebody for productivity (now if the user is playing games, different story, but work wifi is not for games).

    Another situation. Same situation as the last, but the user has gone on their mandatory lunch break (I don't know about New York, but in California you are *required* to take a 15 minute break for every 3 or 4 hours I think it is). User is 2 floors down in the cafeteria, no laptop, only WiFi enabled Treo. Now, how productive is it to run upstairs to send the bloody report (btw, computer is off in order to comply with company energy policy) from the PC? Even if the computer isn't off.

    IMO, a stupid reason to fire an employee (if I where a m higher up manager or CEO I'd fire a lower level manager for firing an employee because they were using a WiFi Treo to do work). Plus, if the employee hasn't used a thumb board before, it will take them time to get used to it, thus appearing "less productive."

    Also, JackNaylorPE, please, do some research and learn how basics networks work before suggesting a gigabit Internet connection. I am only aware of a couple of places where a gigabit Internet connection is possible: educational institutions, government research facilities, research facilities, big corporations, ISPs, but not in a consumers home.

    Now, as a customer, think about it economically.

    Wouldn't it be stupid to pay $109/month (Verizon, $30/month for 400 minutes, $80/month for EVDO access) to access the Internet while in your own living room when you could use your $30/month DSL or Cable connection that already exists? I'd go for the later myself (esp. being a college student).

    Now, to hit the other side of the coin.

    Ok, you don't want WiFi, I do. So, why not make a Treo 700p with WiFi and a Treo 700p without WiFi? I can see a few reasons why not (price wise), but remember the cameraless Treos?

    Regards,
    Donald
  2. #42  
    Actually, the cameraless Treos are for people who can't have cameras where they work for security reasons. I don't think it would make sense to make a Treo with wifi and a Treo without it, It would be better to build it in the device, or to excluse it and make sure it supports wifi SDIO cards.

    I understand your point about paying for Verizon's data service, although I believe the $80 includes DUN usage, and Ev-DO is meant to be an always-on connection. Without DUN, it's $45 althoug that's still ridiculous when Sprint offers handset access and DUN for $50.
  3. #43  
    Point taken (yeah, I knew the purpose of the cameraless Treos). If somebody didn't need WiFi they don't have to turn it on. But I agree, at least add the ability for the card (even though I really despise it, mainly because it ties up the SD slot, but luckily the new NVFS devices have a "hidden" masked volume, not like T5 though).

    I could swear though that what I saw was $80/month for EVDO and there was a note saying that DUN counted towards your monthly minute allowance, with a .45 cents/minute overage. Wait. Never mind. You right in that the EVDO access is $45/month, which is added to a $35/month plan with 450 minutes (making it $80/month). They just want you to sing up with an expensive plan. Does anybody know if this $45/month includes tethering? If not it is pretty expensive. I use the Internet on my TX pretty often, but not that often.

    Also, as a note about a statement made earlier about weak battery life with WiFi, not true. I get pretty good battery life on my TX with WiFi. I think I could browse for about 2 (maybe 3) hours with decent life. Of course, having two (or 3, BT, 3G, WiFi) would hold a greater drain, just having two (BT and WiFi) isn't that bad.

    -Donald
  4. ls3mach's Avatar
    Posts
    659 Posts
    Global Posts
    746 Global Posts
    #44  
    Trevante
    I agree wifi is needed, but your math on bits and bytes is VERY bad.

    "First of all, if it takes an hour to download 12 files totaling only 24MB, then he's not on a high speed network, he's probably not at Starbucks, or your corporate server's connection sucks. Either that or your math is wrong. Read this. Starbucks' wifi runs on a T1 connection, which allows 1.5mbps of bandwidth Now, assuming the wifi network was 802.11B, which operates at 11mbps, you get about 1.4MBps download speed (that's megabytes). Let's even be picky and say the Treo can only download at half that, so 700KBps. If you're only downloading 24MB, it would only take about half a minte, not an hour. Even at 200kbps, it would only take about 2 minutes. In order for 24MB to take an hour, you'd have to be downloading at about 7KBps (eww, sounds like dial up)."


    24MB in 30 seconds, lol. 1.5Mb = 187KBps note the capitalization. At 187KB it would take 131 seconds or just a little over 2 minutes. This would be at ideal speeds. If you took it at half the speed like you suggested then you are looking at closer to 5 minutes. 7KBps on dialup, lol you are lucky to get 5KBps.

    Jack, just because you don't want or need wifi doesn't mean the rest of us do not. You have spent a TON of energy being and advocate against wifi is there some reason you dislike options so much?
  5. ls3mach's Avatar
    Posts
    659 Posts
    Global Posts
    746 Global Posts
    #45  
    dkirker 50kb files could EASILY be sent over EvDO or even 1xRTT. 2MB file is a better example of why you would need wifi.
  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker
    JackNaylorPE, we get that you don't appear to need or want WiFi, but, there are many people that want it. Right now I am flourishing from the "fruits" of WiFi. My first question is, my house is not wired for ethernet, now why in the heck would I run a 50 ft cable from the router in my bedroom out to the living room?
    Exactly "want" not "need". As for why, how's this ? I assume you would drop a 650 for a 700 to triple ya speed to get EVDO but ya won't walk to the other room to get network acess that is 20 times faster.

    The next thing. Why is using a Treo with WiFi to be productive a bad thing or something to fire somebody over?
    Cause I ain't paying him to be unproductive.

    It is 5pm, time for this employee to go home, he has just shut his computer down (256MB Ram, 1.2 GHz P4, Windows XP SP 2 with Norton AV, I don't care if this is not the config of any of the PCs at your work). We'll say it takes this machine 30 seconds to load to the login screen, 5 seconds to log in, 2 minutes to load all of the required programs (Norton AV) as well as connect to the network and setup all virtual drives and shares, and then 1-2 minutes to shutdown (plus one second to press the power switch on the power bar because PCs waste energy in idle). He realizes, ooops, I forgot to mail this 50kb report to the client! He remembers that he has it on the 1GB SD card in his Treo 800p (pretend that is a new WiFi Treo). Now, wouldn't it be far more productive to press then power button on his Treo (+1 second), connect to the works WiFi network (+3 seconds), open the email app and compose an email with the attached report and send it (+1 minute, it is not a 400 page email, just 30 characters) and then press the power button on the Treo (+1 second) rather than go through the hassle of booting up the PC and wait for Windows to chug? I think it would be stupid to fire somebody for productivity (now if the user is playing games, different story, but work wifi is not for games).

    OK so:

    1. I assume this item is time sensitive and must go out that day, right. So who the heck is on the other end to receive it after 5:00.
    2. If the dude on the other end isn't there to receive it, why not wait till tomorrow morning ?
    3. The dude "forgot" to send this time sensitive report. Why wasn't it sent imemdiately when he was told ?
    4. I am suppossed to plan my business purchases based upon what people forget ?
    5. Why not go to another PC in the office ? Some machines (those that do backups) are on all night....we always have machines on at night....that's when AV scans get done, defrag's get done, backups of every box gets done.
    6. Why not just uses the data connection ?
    7. A report and cover letter containing 30 characters ? The preceding sentence had 52 !
    8. Say the file is on ya Treo ? What for ? What is it doing there ? Are you authorized to take home corporate files ? More than likely, that file is on the corporate server or you gonna have tpo check and see if that file has been updated on said server .... so how do you get it on ya SD card ?

    Another situation. Same situation as the last, but the user has gone on their mandatory lunch break (I don't know about New York, but in California you are *required* to take a 15 minute break for every 3 or 4 hours I think it is). User is 2 floors down in the cafeteria, no laptop, only WiFi enabled Treo. Now, how productive is it to run upstairs to send the bloody report (btw, computer is off in order to comply with company energy policy) from the PC? Even if the computer isn't off.
    It's required to be provided, no one is mandated to take it.....in NY , it's required to permit a lunch at 30 minutes and 20 minute dinner period.

    You said it was a 15 minute break ? 30 minutes ? Dude, relax and send it when ya get back upstairs. The receipient who needed it BEFORE lunch is probably at lunch too now....assuming he's in a state that also mandates that he leave the room and go somewhere else to eat lunch. The efficient solution would be to call upstairs and have a secretary e-mail the file.

    That's the problem with these imaginary problems....they are imaginary. Here's ya situation....you want a WiFi enabled Treo 800p, I am the CFO....convince me to spend the $500 for a new device after I just bought you a 700p 6 months ago.

    Kirk- "Well what if I just shut down my puter and I forgot I was suppossed to send something out earlier "
    Boss - "Why didn't you send it out when you were told ?"
    Kirk - "But then I would have to wait for my computer to reboot"
    Boss - "I don't care, you were supposed to do it earlier and YOU forgot....you can now sit and wait all night foir all I care, you're on ya own dime... when you make stupid mistakes, I expect you to make up for it on ya own time."

    IMO, a stupid reason to fire an employee (if I where a m higher up manager or CEO I'd fire a lower level manager for firing an employee because they were using a WiFi Treo to do work). Plus, if the employee hasn't used a thumb board before, it will take them time to get used to it, thus appearing "less productive."
    He wouldn't be fired for using WiFi....he'd be fired for:

    1. Being inefficient. What can you read faster ....a 19" screen or a 2" screen ?.....what gets data faster.....a LAN or WiFi connection ? .... what can you type faster on ......a full size KB or a 2" thumbboard ? Whatever you just did, now has to be backed up to the central server.

    2. Business communication on WiFi ... have you eve read a corporate security and confidentiality policy ?

    Also, JackNaylorPE, please, do some research and learn how basics networks work before suggesting a gigabit Internet connection. I am only aware of a couple of places where a gigabit Internet connection is possible: educational institutions, government research facilities, research facilities, big corporations, ISPs, but not in a consumers home.
    Try reading more carefully. I said gigabit LAN connection, not Gigabit internet connection. I very clearly said internet connection was 28,900 kbps (measured not theoretical). I can pull the file off the server at gigabit speeds and send it at 28,900....how you gonna get that file off the server again ?

    Now, as a customer, think about it economically. Wouldn't it be stupid to pay $109/month (Verizon, $30/month for 400 minutes, $80/month for EVDO access) to access the Internet while in your own living room when you could use your $30/month DSL or Cable connection that already exists? I'd go for the later myself (esp. being a college student).
    Especially being a college student, wouldn't it be stupid to drop $500 for a new device just because it had WiFi when you can alreday do those things many times faster and with more ease from that living room ?

    Now, to hit the other side of the coin. Ok, you don't want WiFi, I do. So, why not make a Treo 700p with WiFi and a Treo 700p without WiFi? I can see a few reasons why not (price wise), but remember the cameraless Treos?
    My suggestion was that Palm release the carrier branded phones....the subsidized ones we've been buying at $325, without WiFi to keep the carriers happy. Then release the unlocked ones, the ones that will be $699 or so (since no carrier) is subsidizing the cost w/WiFi.....
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by ls3mach
    Trevante
    I agree wifi is needed, but your math on bits and bytes is VERY bad.
    I didn't do any math ....just "figure of speech"

    Jack, just because you don't want or need wifi doesn't mean the rest of us do not. You have spent a TON of energy being and advocate against wifi is there some reason you dislike options so much?
    I am not against it at all.....I understand people "wanting" it.....I am questioning the so called "need". The "need" to my mind is highly over exaggerated as I am not seeing many "non imaginary" save the day situations in these responses.

    All I am saying is that, at this poiint in time, the lack of infrastructure makes it a non factor in the purchase decision for the majority of business professionals. Like the TV Tuner on my laptop....I did buy it cause I wanted it, but if I had to convinve the CFO that I needed it, I'd have a hard time maiking a case for it.

    -Well say I am at a hotel with some clients and we want to watch the World Cup.....dude there's a TV in ya room and abig one in the bar.
    -Well say I am with the clients in a Starbucks....dude get them somewhere nice....spring for the bill, it's the company's dime.

    All good sounding arguments but it seems there's always a betetr, more reasonable and efficient alternative around most of the time.
  8. #48  
    Jack, you made a compelling case for why there is only a limited business case for a wifi treo. OK then, lets get rid of all personal purchases of Treo's and see how many devices Palm sells. Remember that Palm made the 700w to penetrate enterprise. That's because the vast majority of Treo sales are to private purchasers, and Palm is failing to deliver to their wants. You may argue that obviously is people are buying these Treos without wifi Palm is delivering what they want, but the building discontent is unmistakable. Compared to the Jonesses next door the Treo is looking worse and worse value.

    Regarding wifi, you must obviously be disagreeing with the roll-out of pda's and smartphones to various enterprises. You do know not everyone has a secretary, don't you? Its rare that I've seen some-one so disconnected from the populace.

    Surur
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    Then why are we even talking about 5.5?
    Read back....in answer to the statement to the effect that the POS was incapable of it and will never be.

    Ok, so you're saying that people shouldn't use wifi to listen to music on their Treos on the basis that they should have another device to do the job? That's like saying you should use a Treo as a phone and a PDA because you can get a phone and a PDA to do the job. The whole point of the Treo is convergence. I shouldn't need to rely on other devices to do what could be done with the Treo.
    No you use the Treo because it's the best tool for the job at the time. Carrying one device when you travel is an extreme advantage cause you don't have to carry other things with you. Using a Treo however is ridiculous when:

    There's a land line available
    You desktop / laptop is at hand

    Using a swiss army knife in an emergency is useful....but when preparing a meal in my kitchen I tend to use a kitchen knife......when opening a beer in my kitchen I tend to use the bottle opener on the wall....when opening up my PC I tend to use a screwdriver....I also use scissors and "full size" tools or all the other things in a swiss army knife when they are available. The swiss army knife is for when ya "in a pinch" and these other things are NOT available. The Treo is for when the landline and the PC are not available.....when ya got a home stereo system sitting next to you why in the world would you want to listen to music thru a phone ? Why not just tape the stuff and play it back over ya answering machine's speaker ?

    If it's 2AM and I'm laying in my bed, everyone in the house in sleeping, and I want to listen to music without leaving my room (or for example's sake, let's say stream a movie from my computer), I should go down stairs and crank up the sound system? Doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't I be able to stream multimedia files from my computer over wifi? And don't mention orb because it won't be as fast or as good quality as a local wifi connection would be. There's other benefits to using wifi on a Treo, not just multimedia;
    Perfect example of these imaginary uses. Just how often does this happen to the normal human being ? Nope I ain't buying a Treo cause it doesn't have WiFi yet.....just in case I wake up some night and find myself wanting to listen to music, I won't be able to WiFi it, so I will go without the best convergence devcie on the market cause there's a possibility this may happen."

    If ya gotta work this hard to come up with a potentially useful scenario.....ya really should be rethinking the matter. What kind of response are most of the people on this planet going to get with this one as the plead to their boss (wife or employer) with these kinda "justifications" ? I'll skip the employer and do the wife this time.

    "Honey I need to buy new Treo"
    "Why"
    "The new one has WiFi"
    "OK but you just spent $450 on that Treo 5 months ago, how much will a new one cost ?"
    "650"
    "650 buks ?....what will this one have that the one you have doesn't ?"
    "WiFi"
    "If it's 2AM and I'm laying in my bed, everyone in the house in sleeping, and I want to listen to music without leaving the room...."

    At that point the wife isn't gonnna let you talk no more

    Final answer 1 - "OK, honey, don't worry....the next time you want to go to sleep instead of playing with ya Treo, wake me up....for $650 I know something we can do that will have you asleep in 30 seconds after we're done."

    Final Answer No. 2 - "You bring that thing anywhere near this bed and it will be the only thing you ever play with in here."

    Final Answer 3 - "Honey pop on the TV, turn to the 600 - 700 series channels, you have 199 stations streaming music 24/7.

    Final Answer 4- "here's my iPod"

    Final Answer 5 - "I just turned on the clock radio and set the timer for 60 minutes"


    Wireless hotsyncing and file transfer (larger range than BT, and you don't have to have BT adaptor for your computer)
    Faster VNC/remote desktop
    LAN gaming (not a serious idea but it's a possibility)
    Remote printing
    WOL
    It comes with a USB wire which is faster still
    My laptops all have BT
    I'll walk to my desktop / laptop for true speed
    I'll print from the desktop / laptop faster still
    4 guys in a public place WiFi gaming on their Treos, yeah that will get ya girls
    Let's see I can wake my laptop via my Treo or I can push the button...what's faster ?

    I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but I don't care about your job. In this debate, personal situations cannot be applied to everyone else's situation You've made it clear that you can't use wifi at work, but does that mean no one else can? No, absolutely not. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one post on TC from a guy saying that he has basically no signal at home and at work and that it would be better if he could use wifi (because he has wifi at both locations), I've also seen posts regarding wifi so the guy could get on his company's exchange server (it only accepts local connections, probably for security reasons). Of course, both people were on 700p's, so wifi was out of the question.
    What I do at work is immaterial. The fact is that an office has desktops and laptops all over the place. The Treo is a device for when your laptop / desktop is unavailable. There is simply NOTHING that you can do on a Treo faster than you can do sitting at your desk next to a landline and ya PC.

    And who says I have to go to Border's or Starbucks for wifi? I'm saying, if there's wifi in the places where I am, wouldn't wifi be more useful for me? It doesn't matter if I spend 99.9% of my time in location X, if there's wifi there, then it would be nice if I could use it when I need it.
    The point is you spend you time in the course of a day at various locations. the only thing that matters is how often you are in those locations. The larger that % is, the more the case for WiFi ****IF**** WiFi offers the most effcient alternative..."because you can" is not a logical reason.

    I'm not exactly saying that you should sit around and jack people's wifi signal (because that's illegal), but wifi is there.
    So what's the point, there's WiFi that we can't use, how does that effect us ?

    You think business professionals are the only ones that buy Treos? And who says wifi can't be efficient and secure?
    So Palm looks at the data and says:

    47% of our Treos are purchased by businesses
    46 % of our Treos are purchased by business professionals
    3 % are purchased by college students
    4 % are purchased by "other" category

    Who in the board room stands up and says "let's base our feature set on the college kids". Palm has done the market research....the reason they committed to WiFi is that they see a growing need which will someday constitute a significant market segment. Or do you think they conducted these studies and said:

    "65 % of our respondents said their next device must have WiFi....let's not put it in tho "

    That's not right. I don't know what kind of internet connection you have, but there's no ISP in the US that for $29.95 a month (or even $50 a month) will give you a wired broadband connection fast enough to saturate a 54mbps or 108mbps wifi connection. ......And why are we comparing gigabit lans and wifi when we're talking about the Treo, where gigabit lan isn't even possible?
    Cause you are so focused on the Treo that you are not thinking of other alternatives. remember the files exist ON THE NETWORK....they ain't on ya Treo or the PC...to send them you gotta get em. Remember the original premise.....do I :

    1. Download the file from my company server and then resend it to the client from the Treo....

    a) access local WiFi network
    b) access your PC....oops you said you turn it off so do ya WOL thing and wait 5 minutes to boot
    c) access your company server thru ya PC
    d) access the files from server to ya PC at gigabit LAN speed
    e) files then go from ya PC to ya Treo via WiFi
    f) send the file to ya clients

    2. Call the office:

    a) "Hello Mary, could you send the 12 DWG files for the airport project to Bill ....thanx".
    b) Mary sends Bill files.....accessing server at gigabit speeds and e-mailing them at 28,900 kbps and that's real measured speed not a burst or theoretical

    See the article "Your Wirelss speed is slower than you think"

    http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.co...le.php/3621241

    When sending a large file to a wireless laptop, you can expect roughly 18-22 Mbps of actual throughput.
    Now while your Treo is busy downloading those files and then resending the, I have completed a half dozen phone calls....who was more productive ?

    What does that have to do with wifi and Treos?
    Cause people who spend their time playing with their gizmos instead of doing things in the most productive manner don't stay employed. What it has to do is that he took 10 or 20 times as long to do something on his Treo than if he had done the task in the most efficient manner.

    Don't be silly, just turn on your gigabit router's wireless But on the real, if you have a signal and you want to get online, then you don't need the wifi right then. But if you don't have a signal and you want to get online, and you don't have wifi near you, then you better get hiking. Better to be able to go down to Starbucks and get online than to not be able to get online at all.
    In this instance, I find it a bit easier and far more productive to just sit down at my laptop. Put it this way ....if I wanted to use WiFi, I'd be using it on the laptop long before I'd bother on the Treo.

    Well that's just you, but for those that need wifi, the money is worth it. Of course, if Palm builds it into the device then that just makes it easier for the consumer. Keep in mind that all the wifi enabled devices offered by carriers are all cheaper than the 700p, so I highly doubt that you'd be paying so much more for a Treo w/ built in wifi.
    We've covered this but again those devices don't have what the Treo has either. Given a choice Moto Q w/ WiFi or 700w as is ?

    Well I am and have been talking about usng a Treo here. Obviously, if you're talking gigabit, you're not on a Treo and must be talking about something else, in which case you're not on topic. Plus your internet connection is not fast enough to utilize the available gigabit bandwidth, so what's the difference?
    There is a difference between network access and internet access.....

    I need those 12 files with me when I leave the offcie. Do I

    1. Pop my SD card in the laptop and copy them at gigabit speed ?
    2. WiFi them over 1/20th that speed.

    But why ask that question at all? I think most of us in this thread, except for you, have established that wifi isn't meant to be your main connection. It's meant to be a backup for those times when you don't have signal, when you need to get on a local network, or when you want to be online and on the phone at the same time.
    I agree it's a nice convenience. All I am saying it's not a deal breaker for the majority of users.....heck there's a thread here where like 50% of the people who tried data of any kind on a mobile devcie said they'd never do it again.

    Like I said, if there are other more efficient options available, then that would obviously be the smartest thing to do. But if you have no other means except for wifi, wouldn't it be useful to have it?
    No argument from me....I'm only saying that it's a very rare case that one will actually find themselves in such a situation....so far these situations have been "imaginary" ..... described as "Say you are in a situation...." Not many "last week I was in a situation...."

    1. So because wifi drains the battery, it shouldn't be there at all? It's no secret that wifi is battery intensive, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included or that it's not useful.
    2. Ok, but if Palm released a Treo with wifi, you can't tell me the carriers wouldn't carry it because it has wifi, especially considering it's a Treo.
    3. That still doesn't change my point. I was simply saying that if companies are putting wifi in these phones, then there has to be some market or some use for it, do you think they're putting in wifi for the "kew-el" factor, or just because they can?
    1. No I think as batteries improve (we went from 1800 to 2400 on the 650 already), efficiency improves it will be much more "doable".
    2. We already know the carriers are fighting WiFi....they haven't exactly been secretive about it .
    3. I think they are looking to distinguish themselves by including "the next big thing". I think, besides the technical roblems, that's at least one of the reasons they are delaying Vista....too few of today's compouters can use it's new wow features.

    Sounds to me like you don't know much about wifi speeds, maybe that why your router's wifi was turned off so quickly.....

    First of all, if it takes an hour to download 12 files totaling only 24MB, then he's not on a high speed network, he's probably not at Starbucks, or your corporate server's connection sucks. Either that or your math is wrong. Read this. Starbucks' wifi runs on a T1 connection, which allows 1.5mbps of bandwidth Now, assuming the wifi network was 802.11B, which operates at 11mbps, you get about 1.4MBps download speed (that's megabytes). Let's even be picky and say the Treo can only download at half that, so 700KBps. If you're only downloading 24MB, it would only take about half a minte, not an hour. Even at 200kbps, it would only take about 2 minutes. In order for 24MB to take an hour, you'd have to be downloading at about 7KBps (eww, sounds like dial up).
    I wa speaking in a figurative manner....didn't do the math....but will now.

    24 MB (capital B) = 192,000 kb

    So saying the Treo is somewhere between 200 and 700 kbps, (say 500) that's 384 seconds or 6.4 minutes.....to download....now re-upload it to your client. You haven't inluded remote Login to your PC, WOL, accessing the server and typing the cover note....I'd say 20 minutes easy. My method took 30 seconds of my time.

    But what does all that have to do with the Treo and wifi?
    Asked and answered . The guy spent 10 - 20 times as long to do something as was necessary and then wants to charge me for wasting his time ????

    Once, again, it's not about you. You don't need wifi, we know that, but those that need wifi and want a PalmOS Treo, what do you say to them?
    I wasn't talking about me....it's about meeting at a convention with the leaders of the major engineering firms in 12 states and finding no one on the room ....and no one in the 6 days of the convention who has found a compelling need to add WiFi.

    1. Yes Jack, we know you don't need wifi. What about those of us that are always in wifi hotspots?
    2. If you have no signal and you "need' to get online, then I don't see what other option you have.
    3. Maybe, but obviously if it can wait, then it's not that important. If you need to get it done ASAP and your Treo and wifi is the only way, wouldn't you do it?
    Again, you are at the end of a series of diminishing percentages. Add up the times you are in those situations and multiply them together.

    1. Times Joe Blow is sitting in WiFi hotspot - 20%
    2. % of 1 that there is no broadbvand signal available - 5%
    3. % of time that more efficient option isn't available - 10%

    .2 x .05 x. .1 = .001 or ..... 1/10th of 1 % of the time

    Even 25% across the board is only 1.5% (.25 x .25 x .25)

    Do I make a purchase decision based upon how I will use the device 1.5 % of the time ? Will palm base the feature set based upon how their users will use the device 1.5 % of the time ?

    And that doesn't include the % of people who wanna even be botherd configuring WiFi....let's call it 25 % again.....(even tho we know many many Treo users don't even use data at all)....we now down to Palm having to address a need their customers will have 4/10ths of 1 % of the time.

    Lol...these percentages mean nothing. The point is, if someone needs wifi and it's available, then it would be good for them. You can't say that because you don't need wifi very often it wouldn't be useful to others.
    Then give me your own. Make a market case to Palm for WiFi considering the 4 factors above. Granted it would be good for them...so would a built in credit card swiper, scanner and many other things. The problem is very few people are telling palm, I am not buying your product cause it doesn't have WiFi. Palm's research shows people aren't using it, heck a large % don't even use data. Until that changes, don't expect Palm to shake the trees and rattle cages in engineering demanding "we need this now".

    Maybe because you're not going to use it very often? Or wait, maybe it's like wifi in that you might only use it when you need to. What a concept. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't use wifi on a Treo too often, but it would be there when I need it, kind of like your laptop's TV tuner.
    Exactly !!!!! That's all I am saying....it's a convenience, not a "must have". It's not like I woulda bought another vendor's cause the TV tuner wasn't available........Lemme see.....with the TV tuner option no longer available from Pro-star, the price drops from $3190 to $3100 .....hmmmm...cancel that order or pay $4675 for the exact same thing from WidowPC w/ TV tuner.

    I'd take WiFi gladly if it was there......but given a choice between WiFi and the POS one handed useability, I quickly forget about WiFi.....it's a minor consideration given what I have to give up to get it.

    SamT, along with those factors you mentioned, the main reason the Treo doesn't support wifi is because PalmOS5 can't handle a wifi radio and a cellular radio at the same time. This just allows Palm to conveniently say "we won't put in wifi because it eats too much battery" instead telling the truth. Never mind the other devices on the market that still manage wifi even with the battery consumption though. Of course, I wouldn't mind if Palm proved me wrong.
    That doesn't explain the 700w's lack of built in WiFi.
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 07/26/2006 at 11:42 AM.
  10. #50  
    Nothing personal guys, but this conversation had devolved badly. Give it a rest.

    No one's going to convince the other, and the arguments in favor of Wi Fi and (especially) against are getting sillier and sillier. ESPECIALLY given that the 650 and 700P are NEVER going to get WiFi.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Regarding wifi, you must obviously be disagreeing with the roll-out of pda's and smartphones to various enterprises. You do know not everyone has a secretary, don't you? Its rare that I've seen some-one so disconnected from the populace.
    I don't know what country you work in but I can count the times I call people in a month who don't have someone else answer the phone on one hand....and that's after folding up 4 fingers....and yes that's after getting past those time wasting auto menu crap.

    We ain't talking personal secretarie shere. How many people are 1 person outfits where they don't have a:

    Personal Secretary or Executive Assistant
    Genersal Office Secretary
    Receptionist
    Colleague
    Coworker
    Any live body that is in the office when I aint.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Nothing personal guys, but this conversation had devolved badly. Give it a rest.

    No one's going to convince the other, and the arguments in favor of Wi Fi and (especially) against are getting sillier and sillier. ESPECIALLY given that the 650 and 700P are NEVER going to get WiFi.
    <Insert obligatory Monty Python reference here>
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Nothing personal guys, but this conversation had devolved badly. Give it a rest.

    No one's going to convince the other, and the arguments in favor of Wi Fi and (especially) against are getting sillier and sillier. ESPECIALLY given that the 650 and 700P are NEVER going to get WiFi.
    I haven't seen anyone "against" WiFi. All I am saying is that it's real hard to make a case where a Treo user is going to change a purchase decision because of the lack of WiFi. So far every case for WiFi's "need" essentially starts with "Imagine if...."

    WiFi would be an added option, a nice convenience but give up my one handed useability for it....that's a big NOT !

    WiFi is like USB was when it first arrived....few devcies were available and those that were were kinda buggy and a PITA to get configured right (mostly printers) but today we wonder how we ever got by w/o it.....and, like WiFi, we still gonna use other alternatives (Firewire, SCSI, ethernet) when they are available simply because they are superior.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Exactly "want" not "need". As for why, how's this ? I assume you would drop a 650 for a 700 to triple ya speed to get EVDO but ya won't walk to the other room to get network acess that is 20 times faster.
    You missed my point. Currently I have AT&T (Covad) DSL. It is 1.3 MBps I believe. I have 802.11b covering the house (11MBps). If I want to just check my email, why walk into the other room when I have WiFi? Less productive, especially if my Treo is sitting next to me. Also, the connection would not be 20x the speed. Plus, don't own a Treo 650, so I can't say that I would or wouldn't.

    Cause I ain't paying him to be unproductive.




    OK so:

    1. I assume this item is time sensitive and must go out that day, right. So who the heck is on the other end to receive it after 5:00.
    2. If the dude on the other end isn't there to receive it, why not wait till tomorrow morning ?
    3. The dude "forgot" to send this time sensitive report. Why wasn't it sent imemdiately when he was told ?
    4. I am suppossed to plan my business purchases based upon what people forget ?
    5. Why not go to another PC in the office ? Some machines (those that do backups) are on all night....we always have machines on at night....that's when AV scans get done, defrag's get done, backups of every box gets done.
    6. Why not just uses the data connection ?
    7. A report and cover letter containing 30 characters ? The preceding sentence had 52 !
    8. Say the file is on ya Treo ? What for ? What is it doing there ? Are you authorized to take home corporate files ? More than likely, that file is on the corporate server or you gonna have tpo check and see if that file has been updated on said server .... so how do you get it on ya SD card ?
    Ok, point taken. It was just imaginary. My point was to say that it would take me about 5 minutes less to send a file from a Treo than it would for me to wait for Windows to load and try to send it from my desktop. I don't care how fast a gigabit ethernet connection is, I doubt your company has a gigabit Internet connection (now, at the college I am going to, yeah, WiFi would be slower).

    Also, the attached report was 50kb (not characters). The message you typed in the email was say 20 characters, the subject 8, and you had to type the first 2 letters of the email address or name for the Treo to recognize it and list the possible contacts (since your client is in the Address Book).

    It's required to be provided, no one is mandated to take it.....in NY , it's required to permit a lunch at 30 minutes and 20 minute dinner period.

    You said it was a 15 minute break ? 30 minutes ? Dude, relax and send it when ya get back upstairs.
    Laws are different in CA. Anyway, imaginary problem made up at 10pm.

    That's the problem with these imaginary problems....they are imaginary. Here's ya situation....you want a WiFi enabled Treo 800p, I am the CFO....convince me to spend the $500 for a new device after I just bought you a 700p 6 months ago.
    I probably wouldn't do that because of the fact that I just got the 700p. I'd either wait for prices to drop (not by $50 either), or (as *some* companies do) offer their employees one.

    Kirk- "Well what if I just shut down my puter and I forgot I was suppossed to send something out earlier "
    Boss - "Why didn't you send it out when you were told ?"
    Kirk - "But then I would have to wait for my computer to reboot"
    Boss - "I don't care, you were supposed to do it earlier and YOU forgot....you can now sit and wait all night foir all I care, you're on ya own dime... when you make stupid mistakes, I expect you to make up for it on ya own time."
    Hehe. I hope you are not saying that my name is Kirk. Anyway. I hope this isn't going on before the file is being sent otherwise both these guys are wasting time.

    He wouldn't be fired for using WiFi....he'd be fired for:

    1. Being inefficient. What can you read faster ....a 19" screen or a 2" screen ?.....what gets data faster.....a LAN or WiFi connection ? .... what can you type faster on ......a full size KB or a 2" thumbboard ? Whatever you just did, now has to be backed up to the central server.
    I can read both pretty fast. If it is a small file than the speed of the Internet connect is not the factor (unless it is dial up). I have not used a thumbboard before, but I would make darn sure that I could enter text faster than poking at it.

    2. Business communication on WiFi ... have you eve read a corporate security and confidentiality policy ?
    Companies have their own policies. It is called WPA. There are about 5 flavors, one being super secure. If I was CEO of a company that had WiFi I'd make darn sure that they were using the most secure protocols (that would apply to most or all of the allowed devices).

    Try reading more carefully. I said gigabit LAN connection, not Gigabit internet connection. I very clearly said internet connection was 28,900 kbps (measured not theoretical). I can pull the file off the server at gigabit speeds and send it at 28,900....how you gonna get that file off the server again ?
    I am just going to reference above. Connection speed does not matter for smaller files.

    Especially being a college student, wouldn't it be stupid to drop $500 for a new device just because it had WiFi when you can alreday do those things many times faster and with more ease from that living room ?
    Only dropping the money because I am on T-Mobile and the rest of my family is on Verizon. My parents offered to add me to a family plan, esentially making communications with them dirt cheap (Unlimited IN calling, so free calling to my aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, parents...). Plus, I would only get the Treo because I prefer the PalmOS. Anyway, not really the point.

    I have a Palm TX (WiFi), so if the Treo allowed from Wifi, then I wouldn't have to have the TX in my pocket all the time. Instead of carrying around 2 devices that did 90% of the same thing (just one lacked WiFi, which I use on a daily basis), I could cut it to 1.

    My suggestion was that Palm release the carrier branded phones....the subsidized ones we've been buying at $325, without WiFi to keep the carriers happy. Then release the unlocked ones, the ones that will be $699 or so (since no carrier) is subsidizing the cost w/WiFi.....
    1000% agreed. $699 is steep, but you would get the option for WiFi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Is3mach
    dkirker 50kb files could EASILY be sent over EvDO or even 1xRTT. 2MB file is a better example of why you would need wifi.
    I was just using a 50kb report to describe, at least for me, that I would be able to mail the file quicker from a Treo than a PC that was shut off.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    That doesn't explain the 700w's lack of built in WiFi.
    The point that we are getting at is that there should be an option for WiFi for those who would use it. I.e. The Palm WiFi card (Treo 700w users can use it).


    Anyway. My point:
    WiFi on a Treo is productive for some people and some business setups, while not productive for others. It is my belief that there should be no reason that a Treo user cannot use WiFi if wanted.

    I am going to try to leave it at that.

    As to the real original topic, it is my belief that we won't see WiFi built into a Treo for at least another year. I am hoping that Palm figures out a way to make the WiFi SD card cooperate with the Treo (programming a network stack that shuts off the Treo's cellular radio wouldn't be too difficult if that is truly the problem), but judging by Palm's track record, I doubt it.

    -Donald
  15. #55  
    In UK cellular data is traditionally very expensive, but most businesses have WIFI. If you work there in a job thats not desk-bound, such as a nurse, salesman, doctor, doorman, mechanic, waiter, radiographer, teacher etc etc you may not have ready access to a PC, but want to check your own personal e-mail or look something up on the internet. If your device does not have WIFI it would be a real disadvantage. This is not a contrived example. Normal people also buy smartphones. No wonder Treo does so poorly here.

    Surur
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    In UK cellular data is traditionally very expensive, but most businesses have WIFI. If you work there in a job thats not desk-bound, such as a nurse, salesman, doctor, doorman, mechanic, waiter, radiographer, teacher etc etc you may not have ready access to a PC, but want to check your own personal e-mail or look something up on the internet. If your device does not have WIFI it would be a real disadvantage. This is not a contrived example. Normal people also buy smartphones. No wonder Treo does so poorly here.

    Surur
    Or check your company email.
  17. #57  
    It's a dead horse so I will repeat a dead beating stick.

    I rather have GPS than WiFi.
  18. #58  
    Why choose? Why not have both? Its not difficult or impossible.

    Surur
  19. ls3mach's Avatar
    Posts
    659 Posts
    Global Posts
    746 Global Posts
    #59  
    This topic has gotten to the tardanic stage. I will end it with the number 1 reason why wifi is needed.

    Bathroom usage...
  20. #60  
    In addition to my previous post about using wi-fi to power my email synchronization (both goodlink & activesync), skype mobile, etc....another use of wi-fi for me as a mobile professional is that while in the many and various hotel rooms that I travel to throughout Europe, where I can only watch maybe 5 channels (limited English language channels & options), is that I can use my WM 5.0 phone to watch both mobi-tv and slinplayer mobile over a fast internet connection (hotel's internet) and not incur the rediculous rates of the roaming data charges. Again, many of the hotels and companies here have wi-fi and where they don't, I plug my apple airport express into the hotel and create my own wireless signal. Slingplayer let's me watch tv back home which is sorely missed when you travel so much. Why not just watch on the company laptop?..firstly because I don't always have it when I travel (depends on how short the trip is..i carry my bluetooth keyboard) and secondly, although not necessarily the case for me, many companies would not allow someone to install these kinds of applications on a company laptop. You may think the phone's screen is to small, but when you're trapped in a hotel room at night and desperately want to watch some tv from back home in NY, the screen size is not a problem...believe me. Also, my MDA has screen rotation so the landscape mode is wider than the treo 700 screen.

    Also, for me, when I'm in the UK for example, which is a constant site for me, I have a local sim card that I always use so that I have a UK phone number. Since Goodlink, which I do actually love, can't work with 2 sim card numbers, I can't synchronize the email using my wi-fi connection, so I use ActiveSync instead while here (and using my local UK Sim card) to sync up email, calendar, etc.. ActiveSync uses my wi-fi to syncronize and not my data connection. (And before anyone points it out, yes I can synchronize GoodLink using Wi-fi too, but not while the SimCard it's registered to is not in the phone.)

    Jack, I think you previously wrote about people leaving the Treo because of Wi-Fi and I can honestly say that it was the reason I did leave the Treo. I did in fact love my 650. I loved the form factor and the ease of use and after having so many PalmOS devices, I completely knew how to use it and had everything from office replicated on it including my Access databases. Even with the 650 reset issues, once I discovered ZLauncher and the DBCache Tool, I was fine. However, wi-fi became a real necessity while traveling, especially outside of the US. I did try to wait for Palm to "catch up," but they were just to slow. I don't work for a tech company, but I can tell you that a lot of my company's execs have moved to WM 5.0 devices for many reasons, but there's quite a few of them loving slingbox and are using it in the same way I am...wi-fi. Although I do like my MDA now, the slide out keyboard is still not a favorite of mine and the no "always available"-dedicated numeric pad is also not a favorite and should Palm come out with a Palm WM 5.0 device with wi-fi..I'll be right there. They do a great job of ease-of-use wth their devices.

    With that said, I do think that from a user-acceptance perspective, Palm is going to have to step up it's delivery of functionality because users are becoming more and more aware of the latest functionality out there and they will not accept mediocrity...well, atleast once they've got their outlook/email fully working :-) and kill the blackberry.
    Last edited by waynew73; 07/26/2006 at 08:23 PM.
    Waynew73

    (m105 => IIIxe => VIIx =>Tungsten T => i705 => Treo 600 => T-MO MDA => HTC Tytn = HTC Tilt & T-MO Dash => HTC TouchPro & HTC S740 => Palm Pre)
    Man, I've spent a lot of money and time on these things!!
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions