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  1. #21  
    Are they going to upgrade the battery to support the massive amount of power wifi requires ? We will have to carry a motorcycle battery with the treo to get reasonable usage time-between-charges.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by ghiscott
    Are they going to upgrade the battery to support the massive amount of power wifi requires ? We will have to carry a motorcycle battery with the treo to get reasonable usage time-between-charges.
    I believe that you're confusing the Treo with the PPC6700 and its 3-4 hours of battery life.
  3. #23  
    More choice is better. As long as the phone companies give us only one pipe to send voice and data through, they're in control. As soon as they add wifi they're not in control. Now I can buy wifi from someone else. Or get it for free. Revenues dip. Stock prices plummet. Executive jobs are lost.

    Yeah, maybe only 1% of the country has wifi. But once upon a time 1% of the country had television coverage. Or cell phone coverage. Or telephones. Or electricity.

    "Meh. Black is a perfectly acceptable color for a car." Henry Ford.

    The fact is that we'll get wifi, whether or not the phone companies want this to happen or not. HTC, Motorola, Nokia, etc. will give it to us. Palm can watch the world go by if it wants.

    It's entropy. Technology relentlessly drives choice down, away from the mega-corps to us -- the walking wallets. Our wallets are the source of all corporate profit, after all.

    In my universe, given a choice between Palm and wifi, sooner or later I will pick wifi.
  4. #24  
    "The reason the Treo's don't have wifi is because PalmOS5 can't handle a cellular radio and a wifi radio at the same time. From what I can guess, it must be a multitasking thing, because WM devices can do it just fine."

    I agree with you, and I think also if it is another movement to WM , but I also remember a few lines extracted from PalmSource.com:

    Communications & Networking

    Pluggable, industry standard, STREAMS-based framework
    Multiple communications tasks can run simultaneously
    Secure I/O framework for driver installation
    Standard connection application for easy setup and configuration of Internet connections via GPRS, Bluetooth, WiFi, serial, modem
    Drivers included:
    RS-232 serial
    IrDA
    USB, USB 1.1 Slave and new support for USB On the Go (master/slave)
    SD and MMC expansion card
    SDIO card support for adding peripherals such as wireless cards, cameras, or other devices
    Networking Protocols supported:
    TCP/UDP/IP
    IPv4, IPv6
    PPP
    OBEX
    Ethernet (for writing 802.11 drivers)

    This was my always waited and wanted OS. Its name is Cobalt. Ok, ok, maybe it's not possible, but dreaming it's free...
  5. #25  
    I will tell you how/why wi-fi is good to have and necessary for me. I travel to Europe atleast 1 week out of every month having meetings at the subsidiaries of my company. Because I'm on T-mobile and more importantly, not on a blackberry plan, the data charges to use my data service in the UK, for example, are astronomical...$15/1mb of data...which is absurd. Although my company supports Blackberry, ActiveSync, and Goodlink (which is what I use), I don't need "push" access to email all the time while in Europe. All of my company's subsidiaries and most of the companies here have wi-fi and I travel with an Apple Airport Express (mini-router) for my hotel rooms whenever I come across a hotel that doesn't have wi-fi (Let me tell you Airport Express is Great for hotel rooms). Anyway, I use the wi-fi connection to run either Goodlink or activesync on my handheld and update my email and not incur any of the rediculous rates. This by the way, is not only a T-mo issue, Cingular has the same problem unless you're using a blackberry. I suspect these more global, unlimited expansive data plans will soon come into existence for more than just the blackberry.

    Wi-fi, let's me update my phone throughout the day and keep my calendar up-to-date, which is really important. I also use it to run skype through the phone when i don't have the laptop with me. Although I'm used to the T-Mo MDA now, I would go back to the Treo tomorrow if they put a WM5.0 wi-fi treo out.
    Waynew73

    (m105 => IIIxe => VIIx =>Tungsten T => i705 => Treo 600 => T-MO MDA => HTC Tytn = HTC Tilt & T-MO Dash => HTC TouchPro & HTC S740 => Palm Pre)
    Man, I've spent a lot of money and time on these things!!
  6. #26  
    waynew73,

    Wow, after your story I'm Almost Persuaded (a big cowboy HT to David Houston, if you're a C & W fan) to go back to the MDA, which I ran with for a while before reverting to the Treo.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well any Garnet 5.4.x limitation wouldn't necessarily apply to 5.5.x and it also doesn't explain why Palm has it on one of their handhelds nor why it's not in the 700w.
    I highly doubt that the differences between 5.4 and 5.5 are big enough to allow wifi on the Treo. And why wouldn't 5.4 limitations apply to 5.5? Just because the number's changed, doesn't mean the OS has changed. In the end, 5.4 and 5.5 still accomplish the same basic tasks. And which Treo has wifi? I know some of their PDA's do, but they don't have a cellular radio so they can do wifi easily. The 700w, well I don't know the exact reason why it's not built in, perhaps they weren't "commited" to wifi at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Also, even if it's not meant to be the main internet connection, it';s usefullness is limited if it's not available in 99.9% of the geographical US. If yiou have no phone signal, how long can ya keep driving around lookoing for a hotspot like those dudes in the VW commercial.
    First of all, who cares about 99.9% of the geographical US? The only places a person should care about in terms of data and wifi coverage are the places he's in the most, and I highly doubt that any of us will ever travel around the US enough to cover exactly 99.9% of it. If I'm at home (I have wifi at home) and at school (wifi at school) most of the time, do I care that wifi isn't available somewhere else that I'm probably never going to go? Let's say that there's no wifi at all in Idaho. I live in Texas, and probably will never go to Idaho in my life. Do I really care about Idaho not having wifi? No, not at all. Numbers and percentages don't mean that much when it comes to coverage, it's whether or not YOU actually have coverage where you are. There are some people who get crappy signal at home and/or work, and wifi would make life with a Treo easier for them.

    Who says that if I don't have a phone signal, there won't be a hotspot nearby? In my school's science building, the lecture classes on the bottom floor (in which I take two classes), there's no Sprint signal in the rooms, I find myself roaming most of the time, so i just turn off my phone to save battery power. Now, on the other hand, my friend can easily get online during class using his MDA. Why? Because of the GREAT wifi coverage in the classroom. Wifi doesn't have to cover 99.9% of the US to be useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I haven't ;lookled at the maps in a while but to my recollection about 50% of the geographical area of the US is covered by cell service which amounts to about 90-95% of the population. OTOH, approximately 1/2 of 1% of the US population has access to public WiFi at any given point in time.
    As said above, coverage statistics don't really mean that much. And wifi coverage doesn't always have to be public wifi coverage, there are people who could use wifi at work. Waynew73 also makes a great point about being able to use your phone internationally with wifi. And with VOIP getting more popular, you'd be able to make calls and get online in foreign countries, and probably at a much lower cost than what you'd pay for international roaming from your carrier.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    I highly doubt that the differences between 5.4 and 5.5 are big enough to allow wifi on the Treo. And why wouldn't 5.4 limitations apply to 5.5? Just because the number's changed, doesn't mean the OS has changed. In the end, 5.4 and 5.5 still accomplish the same basic tasks. And which Treo has wifi? I know some of their PDA's do, but they don't have a cellular radio so they can do wifi easily. The 700w, well I don't know the exact reason why it's not built in, perhaps they weren't "commited" to wifi at the time.
    Same reason Win3.11 had 32 bit file amnd disk acces sand 3.10 did not....same reason you see all those advisories stating that this or that works ONLY with Win98 2nd edition and not 1st edition.

    First of all, who cares about 99.9% of the geographical US? The only places a person should care about in terms of data and wifi coverage are the places he's in the most, and I highly doubt that any of us will ever travel around the US enough to cover exactly 99.9% of it.
    How about all the people who live there ? At any given point in time less than 1/2 of 1% of people can access public WiFi. I am not saying that 99.9 % of the places you go won't have access I am saying 99.9% of the places where people live and work don't have convenient WiFi access. It's great for big cities with lots of Starbucks or college campuses. I can safely say that the closest public WiFi spot to my home or my office in a county of 1.5 million people is the Starbucks about 17 miles away.....the state university is about 3 or 4 miles further and that would be the second.

    Who says that if I don't have a phone signal, there won't be a hotspot nearby? In my school's science building, the lecture classes on the bottom floor (in which I take two classes), there's no Sprint signal in the rooms, I find myself roaming most of the time, so i just turn off my phone to save battery power. Now, on the other hand, my friend can easily get online during class using his MDA. Why? Because of the GREAT wifi coverage in the classroom. Wifi doesn't have to cover 99.9% of the US to be useful.
    I know I very clearly stated that college campuses offer one of the few exceptions.

    As said above, coverage statistics don't really mean that much. And wifi coverage doesn't always have to be public wifi coverage, there are people who could use wifi at work. Waynew73 also makes a great point about being able to use your phone internationally with wifi. And with VOIP getting more popular, you'd be able to make calls and get online in foreign countries, and probably at a much lower cost than what you'd pay for international roaming from your carrier.
    Try and understand, market economics. To the people investing the money in R&D, they need a return on their investment. How many people bought WiFi sleds for their old Treos....a very small number. Verizon didn't release the 700w until they had coverage in 60 major market areas. Sprint didn't release the 700p untilo they caught up. Guess why Cingular didn't jump in the bidding wars for the 700 exclusives and will skip the 700 series entirely....they weren't going to have a network ready to use it on. They've got about 100 MMA's if their original published schedule is holding. It's the same reason why my local store just dropped Sprint, you can't get a signal near the store. Hard to sell a device if there's no infrastructure for it.

    Our office has WiFi capability, it's shut off.... LI is defense contractor territory....WiFi at these joints...yeah right.

    PC Mag has a highlight on Chicago this issue:

    $6.95 for airport acess to WiFi.

    Highlights include 3 WiFi equipped hotels and 3 Free WiFi hot spots:

    The Apple store @ 679 Michigan Avenue
    Dunkin Donuts @ 22437 No. Milawaukee
    Bon Appetit Cafe @ 817 No Milwaukee

    These aren't the only spots I am sure but the fact that a magazine has to publish where it's available is sound enough indication that it is not common enough for a traveler to enter a city and expect to find it at his beck and call. I am not saying it isn't a worthwhielk feature, I am saying there's few places to take advantage of it in the US and until it is....and we are getting near that point.....if there's one thing a vendor needs to ax in order to fit his form factor, power consumption, or price pint...WiFi gonna be the first to go.

    Now 12 months or 18 months from now this will eb an entireley different story as many people are geraing upo (both governements and private entities) to provide the infrastructure....the private ones are ad based....the gov't ones will be a mix of taxpayer and ad supported and we';ll probably see some new models thrown in for good measure.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by ls3mach
    Wifi is useful in a phone. Just today, I needed to be on voice and a call at the same time. Looked up some info and relayed it back. Very quick like.
    EvDO Rev A and/or UMTS
  10. #30  
    I think everyone is missing the greatest need for wifi on the treo -- in buildings where you're in a room WITH NO CELLULAR SIGNAL. So, throw out the 99% of the country's not covered in wifi -- well, no kidding, it's a huge country. I don't have a need to use wifi standing on a hill in the middle of nowhere -- I'm just hoping for cellular signal.

    Wifi is needed for indoors use.
  11. ls3mach's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy
    EvDO Rev A and/or UMTS
    Well, Rev A isn't avaiable yet and UMTS is not in my area. I CAN however provide my own wifi signal.

    I don't get why people are anti-wifi. Noone is suggesting wifi over 3G. Wifi and 3G to me don't represent the same market. I want wifi and 3G. If 3G was EVERYWHERE I could see the argument as being valid, but you can't get it in some buildings or even some cities. I CAN provide myself with wifi at my home and hotels and other places offer it. Why not have the option of both? Options a beautiful thing.
  12. #32  
    JackNaylorPE, I am glad that you do not need WiFi, but for some people WiFi is a must, and the lack of WiFi is a deal-breaker.

    For many people, WiFi is more economical. I refuse to pay Verizon $80 a month for EVDO access when I cannot access it 50%+ of the places that I go. I also refuse to pay that kind of money to access the Internet at home when I can access my high speed connection through WiFi, much cheaper.

    Now, where you come from in Long Island, there may not be much WiFi access. But here in Santa Rosa, and just about any other place within 2 hours of San Francisco, LA, San Diego, New York, Seattle (must I continue??) you can find a bazillion places with WiFi access. See, your 1% figure is blown way out of proportion. My question is, why on Earth would I need a WiFi signal while I am driving through a bare desert high way in the middle of Arizona? The only reason that cellular signals may cover "50%" of the United States is because a cellphone would be more applicable in that desert highway.

    Back to the point of needing WiFi. There are 142 Starbucks stores, 2 Borders bookstores and countless other stores that offer T-Mobile WiFi within a 50 mile radius of my house (I know, you have to pay for T-Mobile WiFi, cheaper than EVDO access). Not to mention the 7+ public libraries that offer free Wifi, the small coffee shops that offer free WiFi, the varios shopping malls in the bay area that are so popular that they offer WiFi and the many hotels in the area (as well as the United States) that offer wifi, as well as the cities (such as San Francisco) that are working on WiFi coverage, that for me, and many many others, WiFi is far more economical than Verizon's (Sprint's and Cingular's) high 3G internet prices.

    Another point, I have a friend of the family that lives in Klamouth Falls, Oregon. If you have not guessed it, it is not a very big city. No dense population. This also means, not EVDO coverage (or any other 3G for that fact). There is only one way for this friend to get high speed Internet. Yup, that's WiFi. A local person setup a sort of high gain antenna and sold Internet access. So, to me, WiFi coverage seems much greater than 3G coverage in the United States (hence the reason for T-Mobile USA considering UMA, for those who do not know, that is basically "GSM" over WiFi).

    Also:

    "How about all the people who live there ? At any given point in time less than 1/2 of 1% of people can access public WiFi."

    Because. I don't live there, I don't travel there often, etc. Now I know that Idaho has WiFi access in various places, but it does not matter because I will not be using it. Also (I hate to sound cynical), I don't care that ".5%" of the public can access WiFi at one time (I'd like to know where you get this fact). I am sure that many people don't need WiFi. The funny thing is that many people that use EVDO or other 3G services are also the people that would most likely use WiFi. Here we are talking about the U.S. market that has not quite caught on the "Internet on your cellphone concept." So, many more people would use WiFi as opposed to 3G at the moment.

    Now, I am sorry if this appeared to be flamming or trolling, not my intentions. My intention was to point out the fact that for many, WiFi access is highly useful and potentially more abundant. Just like cellular signals, coverage increases with population (almost a 1:1 ratio in coverage increase).

    Edit: Basically my post is a longer version of what ls3mach said.

    Edit2: It is in my opinion that there is no excuse for a claimed "business" device to not have WiFi. Many many corporate offices use WiFi, as well as many hotels, coffee shops and homes.

    Regards,
    Donald C. Kirker
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Same reason Win3.11 had 32 bit file amnd disk acces sand 3.10 did not....same reason you see all those advisories stating that this or that works ONLY with Win98 2nd edition and not 1st edition.
    Right, and if that's so, then why does 5.5 not run wifi then? Because it still has a core very similar to 5.4, which couldn't do wifi either. Sure there's a possibility that 5.5 may not have some of the flaws of 5.4, but in regards to the original statement, what i'm saying is that wifi and cellular service will not run on Palm OS 5 at all. It would be like looking at a hardware device; yes there's Win98 1st edition and Win98 2nd edition, but this hardware won't run on Win98 at all, you need 2000 or XP. That's how wifi is with the Treo. 5.4, 5.5, 5.564.687.53.47657875, non of them will run wifi and cellular service at the same time.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    How about all the people who live there ? At any given point in time less than 1/2 of 1% of people can access public WiFi. I am not saying that 99.9 % of the places you go won't have access I am saying 99.9% of the places where people live and work don't have convenient WiFi access. It's great for big cities with lots of Starbucks or college campuses. I can safely say that the closest public WiFi spot to my home or my office in a county of 1.5 million people is the Starbucks about 17 miles away.....the state university is about 3 or 4 miles further and that would be the second.
    This is a weak argument because

    1. You have no source, evidence, or reasoning to assume that 99.9% of populated areas (meaning at least 2 people live there) don't have wifi access.

    2. You keep talking about public wifi access and all that, as if that's the only kind of wifi available. What if i want wifi for my school? What if I want wifi for my work? Or what if I want wifi at home so I can stream my music and videos from my computer to my Treo at faster speeds than I would get with my carrier's connection? When out and about in the public, I'll probably have a cell signal and won't need access to public wifi. However, if there's no cell phone signal at home or at work, what do you do then? Accessing public wifi isn't the only use for wifi on mobile devices.

    3. What is the difference between "the places you go" and "the places where people live and work"? I find it hard to understand your logic because if 99.9% of the places I go are where I live and work, and there's wifi available in those places, then how can 99.9% of the places where I live and work not have convenientwifi access?

    4. Wifi access will vary greatly per area. While wifi access may only be availble to .5% of the people in your area, who says it it's not available to 99.9% of the people in my area, or someone else's area? In my home, the closest wifi hotspot is in.....my home...my neighbor has one... my other neighbor has one....my friend and I have driven down the street in our neighborhood w/ his laptop and found at least 7 different hotspots that people had in their houses. Sure your wifi access may not be that great, but it's not all about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I know I very clearly stated that college campuses offer one of the few exceptions.
    Exactly, and this is one of the situations where wifi would be very useful.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Try and understand, market economics. To the people investing the money in R&D, they need a return on their investment. How many people bought WiFi sleds for their old Treos....a very small number. Verizon didn't release the 700w until they had coverage in 60 major market areas. Sprint didn't release the 700p untilo they caught up. Guess why Cingular didn't jump in the bidding wars for the 700 exclusives and will skip the 700 series entirely....they weren't going to have a network ready to use it on. They've got about 100 MMA's if their original published schedule is holding. It's the same reason why my local store just dropped Sprint, you can't get a signal near the store. Hard to sell a device if there's no infrastructure for it.
    I think sled didn't sell like hotcakes because

    1. It's big and ugly; People don't really want their Treo's getting any bigger
    2. It uses batteries
    3. It's inconvenient. Let's say I want to plug in the Treo's USB cable, I have to disconnect the sled, then plug in the cable, and when I'm done, plug the sled back in
    4. It's kind of expensive. $150, vs. $80-$90 for a wifi SDIO card.
    5. It would only appeal to people who NEEDED a Treo and NEEDED wifi on their Treo. If you don't need a Treo, it would be easier to switch to a WM5 device with built in wifi (MDA, 8125, 6700, or even the 700w and a wifi card).
    6. It didn't work on Sprint Treo's, or at least not without another browser.

    Coverage doesn't really have much to do with it, it's about convenience and having a backup internet connection. If coverage and market economics were so important, then why does HTC put wifi in it's high end smartphones? Look at the MDA/8125, the 6700, the TyTn, the Universal, and there's probably some other phones. There is infrastructure for wifi and there is a market for it. Just because the carriers may not exactly favor it or it's not available 99.9% of the time, doesn't mean there's no market for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Our office has WiFi capability, it's shut off.... LI is defense contractor territory....WiFi at these joints...yeah right.
    What exactly is this supposed to prove? Ok, you don't have wifi at work, but that doesn't mean it's not useful to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    PC Mag has a highlight on Chicago this issue:

    $6.95 for airport acess to WiFi.

    Highlights include 3 WiFi equipped hotels and 3 Free WiFi hot spots:

    The Apple store @ 679 Michigan Avenue
    Dunkin Donuts @ 22437 No. Milawaukee
    Bon Appetit Cafe @ 817 No Milwaukee

    These aren't the only spots I am sure but the fact that a magazine has to publish where it's available is sound enough indication that it is not common enough for a traveler to enter a city and expect to find it at his beck and call. I am not saying it isn't a worthwhielk feature, I am saying there's few places to take advantage of it in the US and until it is....and we are getting near that point.....if there's one thing a vendor needs to ax in order to fit his form factor, power consumption, or price pint...WiFi gonna be the first to go.
    Once, again, it's not all about public wifi access, it's about being able to use wifi as a backup connection; more than likely you're going to have signal in those places listed, but assuming you don't, you can just hop on the wifi. And who says people didn't know about the wifi in those places until the magazine published it? Maybe they were just doing a general article on wifi availability, it's not like they were trying to advertise those places.

    The last part about form factor, power consumption and price; wifi can be added to the Treo without any form factor change, and it's possible to turn off wifi as far as the battery is concerned. Price, well the cost of the wifi will be passed on to the consumer. But of course, if HTC can make the 6700 and launch it for $50 less than the 700p launched and include wifi, I doubt Palm can't do it without making the Treo too expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Now 12 months or 18 months from now this will eb an entireley different story as many people are geraing upo (both governements and private entities) to provide the infrastructure....the private ones are ad based....the gov't ones will be a mix of taxpayer and ad supported and we';ll probably see some new models thrown in for good measure.
    Well public wifi access will be nice, but I'm saying that for some situations, wifi is important, whether you're using a public wifi hotspot or a private one (work, school, home, etc.)
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy
    EvDO Rev A and/or UMTS
    Ok, but should we really have to buy new phones just to be able to talk on the phone and be online at the same time? Not saying that people always need to be online while talking on the phone, but I'm pretty sure that to take advantage of Rev A and UMTS, Palm is going to release new devices.
  15. #35  
    Rev A should be a software upgrade. UMTS, probably not.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    Right, and if that's so, then why does 5.5 not run wifi then?
    Cause it hasn't been released yet ? IIRC the 700p runs 5.4.9

    1. You have no source, evidence, or reasoning to assume that 99.9% of populated areas
    It was mentioned in a local newscast with regard to our county's plan to do border to border WiFi. They mentioned Seattle and a few other cities as notable exceptions but that was the number they used for "most major metropolitan areas".

    2. You keep talking about public wifi access and all that, as if that's the only kind of wifi available. What if i want wifi for my school? What if I want wifi for my work? Or what if I want wifi at home so I can stream my music and videos from my computer to my Treo at faster speeds than I would get with my carrier's connection?
    I think I have said at least 3 times that a college campus is one of the places it makes sense today. If you need WiFi on ya Treo so you can listen to music at home, I gotta ask, what ya motivation is. Hmmm do I use my $150 boom box, my desktop w/ the $199 sound card, my $1 - 20k home stereo or the $14 sound subsystem in the Treo.....why settle for a $14 subsystem if ya really want to listen to good sounding music ? Only answer I can come up with is "cause I can" and "its fun to play with my gadget".

    At work ? If I saw anyone in my office using a WiFi Treo to do work, his arse would be fired. If I had an employee who is using Treo WiFi "cause he can" while desktops and laptops are in abundance where he can be 20-50 times more efficient with his / her time and he's/she's playing with his/her little toy, bye bye. Not to mention the security aspect.

    3. What is the difference between "the places you go" and "the places where people live and work"?
    The places I go for example are Boston, Chicago, DC ...Laake George on vacation and I am there a small % of the time. The places I live and work are Long Island and NYC and I am there 98% of the time. People say that it don't matter if there is no access where they live and work...because they "go places" with it....my answer is "how often are you there ? How many hours per year do you spend in Borders or Starbucks ?"

    4. Wifi access will vary greatly per area. While wifi access may only be availble to .5% of the people in your area, who says it it's not available to 99.9% of the people in my area, or someone else's area? In my home, the closest wifi hotspot is in.....my home...my neighbor has one... my other neighbor has one....my friend and I have driven down the street in our neighborhood w/ his laptop and found at least 7 different hotspots that people had in their houses. Sure your wifi access may not be that great, but it's not all about you.
    And these 7 people's WiFi were open and accessible to anyone walking by ? That's not exactly an endoresement. That's fine for the napster crowd but business professionals, when your are on their dime, are going to demand that you use the most efficient and secure communication methods available. WiFi is nice in a home .....when you get started. But when you compare Gigabit LAN and WiFi it's the same as dial up versus broadband...which one you wanna use ? My Gigabit / WiFi router had its WiFi enabled for about 2 weeks.....there's a reason the cable companies give ya 6 months of broadband at $29.95....once ya have it for that long ya can't go back to dial up so they got ya....once ya experience gigabit LAN, aside form the "kew-el factor", WiFi is paltry and annoying.

    You can sit in my living room and fire up ya WiFi Treo and answer this post.....by the time ya are done doing that, I been to my laptop, did the same thing, grabbed a beer, made a sandwich and made 6 new posts. Hey if ya Treo is ya only means of communication and ya got no laptop, no desktop....ya got me....I give.....but if these tools are available ....no sense banging in a 16 penny nail with a ball peen hammer if ya got a nice big carpenter's job sitting in da toolbox. Using ya Treo to do anything via WiFi that takes more than 90 seconds to me is just playing. There's much more efficient ways of getting things done.

    I once was manning a registration table in ahotel for one of our conventions and watched a guy spend over 2 hours sitting in the lobby answering e-mail on his BB. I was sitting 50' away from the hotel's busines center where my colleagues were using the PC kiosks to answer their own e-mail asking myself the whole time what prompts someone to sit for 2 hours typing with his thumbs when free e-mail and wired LAN / broadband web access is provided by the hotel with 19" LCD screens and full size keyboards ?

    Coverage doesn't really have much to do with it, it's about convenience and having a backup internet connection. If coverage and market economics were so important, then why does HTC put wifi in it's high end smartphones? Look at the MDA/8125, the 6700, the TyTn, the Universal, and there's probably some other phones. There is infrastructure for wifi and there is a market for it. Just because the carriers may not exactly favor it or it's not available 99.9% of the time, doesn't mean there's no market for it.
    How convenient is it for me to hike down to Starbucks when I want to use the web ? I won't spend money for something that will not be available to me 99% of the time unless I go hunting for it. Businesses bill out people from $75 - $400 an hour. I can't be paying people to search for a Starbucks so they can get something done.

    What exactly is this supposed to prove? Ok, you don't have wifi at work, but that doesn't mean it's not useful to others.
    Let's see...do I want to access the network at Gigabit speeds or use WiFi and go 20 or more times slower ?

    Once, again, it's not all about public wifi access, it's about being able to use wifi as a backup connection;
    It seems to me it's more about "cause I can " than it is about being useful. No doubt having WiFi as an available option is a plus. But I have to ask the question is it the best, most efficient option ?

    I need to send a file to a client from the road. What is the most cost effective option ?

    a. Call my secretary and tell her to send it.
    b. Send it via the web on my Treo
    c. Try and find a Starbucks and send it


    I need to send a file on my Treo to a client from a client's office. What is the most cost effective option ?

    a. Send it via the web on my Treo
    c. Ask for a password for their wireless network
    d. Ask if I can sit down at one of their workstations and send it by popping my SD card or Card Export into one of their machines.

    But of course, if HTC can make the 6700 and launch it for $50 less than the 700p launched and include wifi, I doubt Palm can't do it without making the Treo too expensive.
    Don't forget:

    1. Palm's focus groups have said too much battery drain.
    2. Carriers are still being whiney about it.
    3. The products you mention are all missing stuff the Treo doesn't have wjhetehr it be tocuh screens, accessible KB's, or whatever.

    Let's say I call one of my subs and I find out he is sitting in Starbucks and I tell him I need a set of files. IU need Drawing Nos. 1 thru 40 for the Addition of RunWay Lighting and Emergency Power Facilities and Long Island MacArthur Airport. He accesses his corporate network, downloads the 12 files which average about 2 MB each to his Treo at paltry WiFi speeds and then e-mails it to me. He sends me a bill for $150 for one hour of his time.

    I gonna send him a letter back saying.

    1. I marked up those drawings last week.
    2. I called my secretary and asked her to e-mail you the files.
    3. I took me 1 minute to make the call to my secretary. It took her 2 minutes to encrypt the files and send you the files over our office's broadband connection.
    4. I am sending you a check to cover:
    -1 minute of your time for our phone conversation
    -1 minute of your time to call ya secretary
    -3 minutes of ya secretary's time to lisen to you, encrypt and send the files.
    5. The fact that you,a highly paid professional, would sit in a public place spending an hour watching a download progress bar on smartphone instead of using aess highly compensated office staff and more efficient tools to accomplish this mundane task leaves me less than impressed with your business acumen. I will have to rethink my position on whetehr to include you on the project team for that other upcoming airport project.
    6. As of this Friday, your services on this project are terminated. Your lack of judgement in using an insecure WiFi connection to transmit construction files which could be used by terrorists to attack critical infrastructure shows a serious lack of judgement.

    Ok, I took that to the "extreme" because I think the Pro WiFi position is taken to an extreme. Lot's of "what if you are ..." scenarios but few "I find myself in this situation xx hours per week" scenarios.

    As a mobile buinessman and as the regional manager for 12 state organizations in the northeast (Maine -> DC) I have yet to make the acquaintance of a business professional who tells me he/she or his/her organization "needs" Mobile WiFi. If I as a college student my outlook would be different.

    My point is this.....if I track my daily activities and write down:

    1. How many hours per week am I in a WiFi hotspot (making special trips don't count), and .....
    2. When I am in a WiF hotspot, does using WiFi present the most efficient means of doing what I "need" to do....not what I "want" to do.....what I "need" to do.
    3. Assuming I am in the a WiFi hotspot and assuming it woud be the most efficient way of doing the task from there at the moment, is te task time sensitive ? Would it be more efficeent for me to do whatever it is I have to do later where I can be more efficient ....say witha full size screem Keyboard and faster conenction.

    If we be genrous and say I am ina WiFi hotspot 4 hours per week, it will be the most efficient option maybe 10% of that time and only 10% of that time will the task be time sensitive. My WiFi useability is tehrefore 4 hours a 10% x 10% or 2.4 minutes a week....not enough for me to get excited about.

    Again, I am not saying it isn't a nice option .... I have a TV Tuner in my laptop nd I have never used it.....but hey for $75 why not. I am saying it's not essential and whetehr or nota device has it today is not a make or break decision for the majority of business professionals at this point in time....18 - 36 months from now, when the county ahs 100% coverage...heck even 50$ coverage and the story changes entirely.
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy
    Rev A should be a software upgrade. UMTS, probably not.
    Software Upgrade at the towers.....my understanding however is that receiver hardware is/can be limited. Hoe else the retailers gonna amke any money

    Being a GSM user I did some research and found that many early HSDPA cards / handsets are limited to 1.8 and will not be able to take advantage of the higher speed when Cingular decided toi skip the 1.8 network rollout and go directly to 3.6. Same thing for EVDO IIRC from the web articles I have read.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Don't forget:

    1. Palm's focus groups have said too much battery drain.
    Is there any real scientific proof of this (equal usage, equal hardware, one radio completely off/other on)? Too much compared to EVDO? I am no radio or electronics expert but the cell phone transmitter, which is used for EVDO, can use up to 1 full watt. The maximum legal 802.11 transmitter uses up to 100 miliwatts - 10 times less wattage. Shorter range, less power. Common sense tells me that I'd be using less battery with WiFi. If I am wrong, why?

    I am more inclined to believe that the lack of WiFi was more due to cost and carrier pressure (esp. the lack of palm add-on drivers) rather than battery consumption. I really think there is a lot of disinformation there.

    Heck if battery consumption was so important to Palm they'd never let the 700p out the door the way it is.

    Sam
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Cause it hasn't been released yet ? IIRC the 700p runs 5.4.9
    Then why are we even talking about 5.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    It was mentioned in a local newscast with regard to our county's plan to do border to border WiFi. They mentioned Seattle and a few other cities as notable exceptions but that was the number they used for "most major metropolitan areas".
    Yea, but that was probably in regards to public wifi and more than likely didn't count private wireless networks. Regardless, the point is that you can't take that number and apply it to everyone, because if all the places I go to have wifi, then that number is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I think I have said at least 3 times that a college campus is one of the places it makes sense today. If you need WiFi on ya Treo so you can listen to music at home, I gotta ask, what ya motivation is. Hmmm do I use my $150 boom box, my desktop w/ the $199 sound card, my $1 - 20k home stereo or the $14 sound subsystem in the Treo.....why settle for a $14 subsystem if ya really want to listen to good sounding music ? Only answer I can come up with is "cause I can" and "its fun to play with my gadget".
    Ok, so you're saying that people shouldn't use wifi to listen to music on their Treos on the basis that they should have another device to do the job? That's like saying you should use a Treo as a phone and a PDA because you can get a phone and a PDA to do the job. The whole point of the Treo is convergence. I shouldn't need to rely on other devices to do what could be done with the Treo.

    If it's 2AM and I'm laying in my bed, everyone in the house in sleeping, and I want to listen to music without leaving my room (or for example's sake, let's say stream a movie from my computer), I should go down stairs and crank up the sound system? Doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't I be able to stream multimedia files from my computer over wifi? And don't mention orb because it won't be as fast or as good quality as a local wifi connection would be. There's other benefits to using wifi on a Treo, not just multimedia;

    Wireless hotsyncing and file transfer (larger range than BT, and you don't have to have BT adaptor for your computer)
    Faster VNC/remote desktop
    LAN gaming (not a serious idea but it's a possibility)
    Remote printing
    WOL

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    At work ? If I saw anyone in my office using a WiFi Treo to do work, his arse would be fired. If I had an employee who is using Treo WiFi "cause he can" while desktops and laptops are in abundance where he can be 20-50 times more efficient with his / her time and he's/she's playing with his/her little toy, bye bye. Not to mention the security aspect.
    I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but I don't care about your job. In this debate, personal situations cannot be applied to everyone else's situation You've made it clear that you can't use wifi at work, but does that mean no one else can? No, absolutely not. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one post on TC from a guy saying that he has basically no signal at home and at work and that it would be better if he could use wifi (because he has wifi at both locations), I've also seen posts regarding wifi so the guy could get on his company's exchange server (it only accepts local connections, probably for security reasons). Of course, both people were on 700p's, so wifi was out of the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    The places I go for example are Boston, Chicago, DC ...Laake George on vacation and I am there a small % of the time. The places I live and work are Long Island and NYC and I am there 98% of the time. People say that it don't matter if there is no access where they live and work...because they "go places" with it....my answer is "how often are you there ? How many hours per year do you spend in Borders or Starbucks ?"
    And who says I have to go to Border's or Starbucks for wifi? I'm saying, if there's wifi in the places where I am, wouldn't wifi be more useful for me? It doesn't matter if I spend 99.9% of my time in location X, if there's wifi there, then it would be nice if I could use it when I need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    And these 7 people's WiFi were open and accessible to anyone walking by ? That's not exactly an endoresement.
    I'm not exactly saying that you should sit around and jack people's wifi signal (because that's illegal), but wifi is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    That's fine for the napster crowd but business professionals, when your are on their dime, are going to demand that you use the most efficient and secure communication methods available.
    You think business professionals are the only ones that buy Treos? And who says wifi can't be efficient and secure? Regardless, my point is, in those situations when you need to get online and there's no data service available from your carrier for whatever reason (for example, no signal), wifi could be the most efficient and secure (depending on the hotspot) communication method available.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    WiFi is nice in a home .....when you get started. But when you compare Gigabit LAN and WiFi it's the same as dial up versus broadband...which one you wanna use ? My Gigabit / WiFi router had its WiFi enabled for about 2 weeks.....there's a reason the cable companies give ya 6 months of broadband at $29.95....once ya have it for that long ya can't go back to dial up so they got ya....once ya experience gigabit LAN, aside form the "kew-el factor", WiFi is paltry and annoying.
    That's not right. I don't know what kind of internet connection you have, but there's no ISP in the US that for $29.95 a month (or even $50 a month) will give you a wired broadband connection fast enough to saturate a 54mbps or 108mbps wifi connection. Let's say you have Verizon's FiOS service, which gets as fast as 30mbps (for $200 a month! ). If you get a regular wireless G router, you operate at 54mbps, so you'd still never realize the potential of your FiOS connection. Keep in mind that ther are wireless routers that offer speeds up to 108mbps, which is technically (but probably not noticably) faster than a wired 100mbps connection. Furthermore, your internet connection will not saturate a gigabit lan, so why are we even talkin about gigabits when most internet connections don't even get up to 100mbps? Wifi and LAN should really only be compared when it comes to local bandwidth. Of course, if you're copying files between computers, a gigabit connection is gonna whoop a wireless connection any day of the week, but when it comes to internet, you wouldn't notice the difference. And why are we comparing gigabit lans and wifi when we're talking about the Treo, where gigabit lan isn't even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    You can sit in my living room and fire up ya WiFi Treo and answer this post.....by the time ya are done doing that, I been to my laptop, did the same thing, grabbed a beer, made a sandwich and made 6 new posts. Hey if ya Treo is ya only means of communication and ya got no laptop, no desktop....ya got me....I give.....but if these tools are available ....no sense banging in a 16 penny nail with a ball peen hammer if ya got a nice big carpenter's job sitting in da toolbox. Using ya Treo to do anything via WiFi that takes more than 90 seconds to me is just playing. There's much more efficient ways of getting things done.
    Once again, why are we talking about using other devices instead of the Treo? Obviously, if I'm at home, I'm not going to use my Treo instead of my computers, unless the computers are in use and are going to be for a while, or my ISP's connection is down. But let's say I go over to someone else's house and their computer is being used and I need to check my email, but I get no signal in his house. Wouldn't it be nice if I could get on his wifi network instead of asking the person using the computer to get off, or waiting ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I once was manning a registration table in ahotel for one of our conventions and watched a guy spend over 2 hours sitting in the lobby answering e-mail on his BB. I was sitting 50' away from the hotel's busines center where my colleagues were using the PC kiosks to answer their own e-mail asking myself the whole time what prompts someone to sit for 2 hours typing with his thumbs when free e-mail and wired LAN / broadband web access is provided by the hotel with 19" LCD screens and full size keyboards ?
    What does that have to do with wifi and Treos?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    How convenient is it for me to hike down to Starbucks when I want to use the web?
    Don't be silly, just turn on your gigabit router's wireless But on the real, if you have a signal and you want to get online, then you don't need the wifi right then. But if you don't have a signal and you want to get online, and you don't have wifi near you, then you better get hiking. Better to be able to go down to Starbucks and get online than to not be able to get online at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I won't spend money for something that will not be available to me 99% of the time unless I go hunting for it. Businesses bill out people from $75 - $400 an hour. I can't be paying people to search for a Starbucks so they can get something done.
    Well that's just you, but for those that need wifi, the money is worth it. Of course, if Palm builds it into the device then that just makes it easier for the consumer. Keep in mind that all the wifi enabled devices offered by carriers are all cheaper than the 700p, so I highly doubt that you'd be paying so much more for a Treo w/ built in wifi.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Let's see...do I want to access the network at Gigabit speeds or use WiFi and go 20 or more times slower?
    Well I am and have been talking about usng a Treo here. Obviously, if you're talking gigabit, you're not on a Treo and must be talking about something else, in which case you're not on topic. Plus your internet connection is not fast enough to utilize the available gigabit bandwidth, so what's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    It seems to me it's more about "cause I can " than it is about being useful. No doubt having WiFi as an available option is a plus. But I have to ask the question is it the best, most efficient option ?
    But why ask that question at all? I think most of us in this thread, except for you, have established that wifi isn't meant to be your main connection. It's meant to be a backup for those times when you don't have signal, when you need to get on a local network, or when you want to be online and on the phone at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I need to send a file to a client from the road. What is the most cost effective option ?

    a. Call my secretary and tell her to send it.
    b. Send it via the web on my Treo
    c. Try and find a Starbucks and send it


    I need to send a file on my Treo to a client from a client's office. What is the most cost effective option ?

    a. Send it via the web on my Treo
    c. Ask for a password for their wireless network
    d. Ask if I can sit down at one of their workstations and send it by popping my SD card or Card Export into one of their machines.
    Like I said, if there are other more efficient options available, then that would obviously be the smartest thing to do. But if you have no other means except for wifi, wouldn't it be useful to have it?


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Don't forget:

    1. Palm's focus groups have said too much battery drain.
    2. Carriers are still being whiney about it.
    3. The products you mention are all missing stuff the Treo doesn't have wjhetehr it be tocuh screens, accessible KB's, or whatever.
    1. So because wifi drains the battery, it shouldn't be there at all? It's no secret that wifi is battery intensive, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included or that it's not useful.
    2. Ok, but if Palm released a Treo with wifi, you can't tell me the carriers wouldn't carry it because it has wifi, especially considering it's a Treo.
    3. That still doesn't change my point. I was simply saying that if companies are putting wifi in these phones, then there has to be some market or some use for it, do you think they're putting in wifi for the "kew-el" factor, or just because they can?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Let's say I call one of my subs and I find out he is sitting in Starbucks and I tell him I need a set of files. IU need Drawing Nos. 1 thru 40 for the Addition of RunWay Lighting and Emergency Power Facilities and Long Island MacArthur Airport. He accesses his corporate network, downloads the 12 files which average about 2 MB each to his Treo at paltry WiFi speeds and then e-mails it to me. He sends me a bill for $150 for one hour of his time.
    Sounds to me like you don't know much about wifi speeds, maybe that why your router's wifi was turned off so quickly.....

    First of all, if it takes an hour to download 12 files totaling only 24MB, then he's not on a high speed network, he's probably not at Starbucks, or your corporate server's connection sucks. Either that or your math is wrong. Read this. Starbucks' wifi runs on a T1 connection, which allows 1.5mbps of bandwidth Now, assuming the wifi network was 802.11B, which operates at 11mbps, you get about 1.4MBps download speed (that's megabytes). Let's even be picky and say the Treo can only download at half that, so 700KBps. If you're only downloading 24MB, it would only take about half a minte, not an hour. Even at 200kbps, it would only take about 2 minutes. In order for 24MB to take an hour, you'd have to be downloading at about 7KBps (eww, sounds like dial up).

    I gonna send him a letter back saying.

    1. I marked up those drawings last week.
    2. I called my secretary and asked her to e-mail you the files.
    3. I took me 1 minute to make the call to my secretary. It took her 2 minutes to encrypt the files and send you the files over our office's broadband connection.
    4. I am sending you a check to cover:
    -1 minute of your time for our phone conversation
    -1 minute of your time to call ya secretary
    -3 minutes of ya secretary's time to lisen to you, encrypt and send the files.
    5. The fact that you,a highly paid professional, would sit in a public place spending an hour watching a download progress bar on smartphone instead of using aess highly compensated office staff and more efficient tools to accomplish this mundane task leaves me less than impressed with your business acumen. I will have to rethink my position on whetehr to include you on the project team for that other upcoming airport project.
    6. As of this Friday, your services on this project are terminated. Your lack of judgement in using an insecure WiFi connection to transmit construction files which could be used by terrorists to attack critical infrastructure shows a serious lack of judgement.
    But what does all that have to do with the Treo and wifi?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Ok, I took that to the "extreme" because I think the Pro WiFi position is taken to an extreme. Lot's of "what if you are ..." scenarios but few "I find myself in this situation xx hours per week" scenarios.

    As a mobile buinessman and as the regional manager for 12 state organizations in the northeast (Maine -> DC) I have yet to make the acquaintance of a business professional who tells me he/she or his/her organization "needs" Mobile WiFi. If I as a college student my outlook would be different.
    Once, again, it's not about you. You don't need wifi, we know that, but those that need wifi and want a PalmOS Treo, what do you say to them?


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    My point is this.....if I track my daily activities and write down:

    1. How many hours per week am I in a WiFi hotspot (making special trips don't count), and .....
    2. When I am in a WiF hotspot, does using WiFi present the most efficient means of doing what I "need" to do....not what I "want" to do.....what I "need" to do.
    3. Assuming I am in the a WiFi hotspot and assuming it woud be the most efficient way of doing the task from there at the moment, is te task time sensitive ? Would it be more efficeent for me to do whatever it is I have to do later where I can be more efficient ....say witha full size screem Keyboard and faster conenction.
    1. Yes Jack, we know you don't need wifi. What about those of us that are always in wifi hotspots?
    2. If you have no signal and you "need' to get online, then I don't see what other option you have.
    3. Maybe, but obviously if it can wait, then it's not that important. If you need to get it done ASAP and your Treo and wifi is the only way, wouldn't you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    If we be genrous and say I am ina WiFi hotspot 4 hours per week, it will be the most efficient option maybe 10% of that time and only 10% of that time will the task be time sensitive. My WiFi useability is tehrefore 4 hours a 10% x 10% or 2.4 minutes a week....not enough for me to get excited about.
    Lol...these percentages mean nothing. The point is, if someone needs wifi and it's available, then it would be good for them. You can't say that because you don't need wifi very often it wouldn't be useful to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Again, I am not saying it isn't a nice option .... I have a TV Tuner in my laptop nd I have never used it.....but hey for $75 why not.
    Maybe because you're not going to use it very often? Or wait, maybe it's like wifi in that you might only use it when you need to. What a concept. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't use wifi on a Treo too often, but it would be there when I need it, kind of like your laptop's TV tuner.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I am saying it's not essential and whetehr or nota device has it today is not a make or break decision for the majority of business professionals at this point in time....18 - 36 months from now, when the county ahs 100% coverage...heck even 50$ coverage and the story changes entirely.
    Like I said before, it's not just business professionals that buy Treos. And even still, I don't think business professionals would mind having wifi, I'm sure there are some that would need to use it once in a while.

    SamT, along with those factors you mentioned, the main reason the Treo doesn't support wifi is because PalmOS5 can't handle a wifi radio and a cellular radio at the same time. This just allows Palm to conveniently say "we won't put in wifi because it eats too much battery" instead telling the truth. Never mind the other devices on the market that still manage wifi even with the battery consumption though. Of course, I wouldn't mind if Palm proved me wrong.
  20. #40  
    WiFi is not needed on smartfones. BT and 3G are enough for anyone.
    I still have plenty of memory left on my 8086 chipped IBM PC with a whopping 1MB of total RAM. Bill was right.
    Please dont tell people what they need and dont need based on your opinion. Just becuase you dont have a need or a want for it doesnt mean that others dont either.

    We can debate on whether the POS can handle it, or if the current hardware can handle it but please dont tell me that I or others dont need it.
    HDHNTR, you're killin' me man! Think outside the box a little there.
    Patrick Horne
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