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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    Must haves according to who? You only. It's nice that those things fit your needs but that doesn't mean they're important to everyone. Personally, the only "must have" in a Treo for me would be PalmOS.
    To most of the prople using it....wtach the boards here....the single most important reason people use the Treo is because they can use it one handed and they can do things with far fewer taps...that IS the Palm market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    But that's ridiculous.
    Exactly....that WAS my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    I've never mentioned any device beign more superior than another device in any of my posts. My point is simply that the Treo is lagging behind in technology compared to other devices on the market. If the engineers can only fit so much in the box, and they can't fit enough to keep up with everyone else,then perhaps they should find or build a different box (PalmOS 6 Cobalt anyone?)
    Again where is this magic device ? Palm is not crazy enough to abandon their core market to satisfy the desires of users who represent a small part of their potential market. Palm is not going to add any of these "wunderbar" features if it means giving up what separates them from the mass of other easily forgotten devices on the market.

    Let's say they could add wifi but that means the US carriers would respond by dropping the new user subsidies from $200 to $75 . Would that hurt or hep Treo sales ? Lets say they could add some other series of features but that menay adding a slide out keyboard, effectively ending one handed usage....the one feature that every trade mag says makes Palm the 800 pound gorilla all of a sudden gone....there'd be hell of a feeding frenzy to take that title.

    Palm hasn't shown double digit growth for 12 straight quarters by making bad decisions.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Exactly....that WAS my point.
    Ok, but then how is it ridiculous to expect the Treo to keep up with current
    technology, especially when it's being sold for the same price and/or more than other phones?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Again where is this magic device ? Palm is not crazy enough to abandon their core market to satisfy the desires of users who represent a small part of their potential market. Palm is not going to add any of these "wunderbar" features if it means giving up what separates them from the mass of other easily forgotten devices on the market.
    1. I didn't say there's a magic device. I'm still waiting for Palm to make it. Perhaps there isn't a magic device that matches the Treo in some of those features you mentioned because there isn't such a huge market for a device? You always mention the Treo's one-handedness (which you use to selectively knock out most other smartphones that have the wunderbar features)...most devices that come out today run WM5 (because PalmOS5 is too old!) which doesn't have much one-handedness, so why should a company bother to design a device to be so one-handed, when the user is still going to have to whip out the stylus in the end?

    2. Keep in mind that the main thing that limits the Treo from keeping up is software. PalmOS5 just isn't enough to add these new technologies. If Palm would work on getting out OS6, I'm pretty sure it would allow the Treo to keep up technology wise and I'm pretty sure that Palm would actually release a Treo that actually has some newer features. It's not like Palm needs to completely re-design a new Treo to add these "wunderbar" features, it's all a software limitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Let's say they could add wifi but that means the US carriers would respond by dropping the new user subsidies from $200 to $75 . Would that hurt or hep Treo sales ? Lets say they could add some other series of features but that menay adding a slide out keyboard, effectively ending one handed usage....the one feature that every trade mag says makes Palm the 800 pound gorilla all of a sudden gone....there'd be hell of a feeding frenzy to take that title.
    Why would Palm have to add out a slide out keyboard? There's no reason for them to ever do so unless they want to (it would definately appeal to some people though.). And I never said anything about sales....I'm not sure why the Treo subsidies would drop so much because of wifi (I don't think it would affect data plans that much, look at the 6700). My point is that the Treo lags behind because of PalmOS5 and I don't see how anything good can come out that. If you find justification for it, then good for you, although I'm pretty sure you wouldn't mind a Treo with some of these features I mentioned....

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Palm hasn't shown double digit growth for 12 straight quarters by making bad decisions.
    Maybe they've shown such growth because they're really the only company with PalmOS smartphones in the market? Or maybe it's because of their PDA's and accessories? While the Treo is a major player, it can't be the only reason for Palm's growth.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    Ok, but then how is it ridiculous to expect the Treo to keep up with current technology, especially when it's being sold for the same price and/or more than other phones?
    Because the current technology comes at the expense of other things.....The Moto Q was suppossed to be a Treo Killer cause of what it "had" .... then when it came out, and we all saw what it "didn't have" it was soon forgotten. Though I am sure it will appeal to many who have never used a Treo, it is a huge step down for one who uses all the features of a Treo

    ...most devices that come out today run WM5 (because PalmOS5 is too old!) which doesn't have much one-handedness, so why should a company bother to design a device to be so one-handed, when the user is still going to have to whip out the stylus in the end?
    Stylus ? I don't need no stinkin stylus . Look at Laptop Magazine, Wall Street Journal, Busines Week, New York Times, PC Magazine....the sum of which basically says:

    "The Treo 700w is the best WM5 device made today but it pales in comparision to the 650"....why aren't any of these devices consistently winning Editor's Choice awards ? I wouldn't put any stock in one award but when one device continues to get award after award after award, I kinda think there's a market consensus.

    Keep in mind that the main thing that limits the Treo from keeping up is software. PalmOS5 just isn't enough to add these new technologies. If Palm would work on getting out OS6, I'm pretty sure it would allow the Treo to keep up technology wise and I'm pretty sure that Palm would actually release a Treo that actually has some newer features.
    Lots of hyperbole but as the old commercial goes "where's the beef ?" What is it that you want the Treo to do that it doesn't ? Play DRM music....not interested....multimedia ? On a 2" screen, multimedia is a long way from being a feature to crow about.

    Maybe they've shown such growth because they're really the only company with PalmOS smartphones in the market? Or maybe it's because of their PDA's and accessories? While the Treo is a major player, it can't be the only reason for Palm's growth.
    I was referring to growth strictly in the Treo's device category....Palm's PDA business is moribound. HP, Dell and others have already exited this dead market. Check the Palm Linux threads.....Unless Cobalt sneaks out for a short run, I expect Nitro this year and Lennon's POS successor next year will be the last or next to last devices we see with the traditional Palm OS.....after that methinks Linux will be where Palm puts its marbles.....maybe even joining the Mobile Linux alliance as did NEC, Panasonic Samsung, Motorola and others last month.
  4.    #24  
    Guys..
    The subject is not how good or effective a treo is.

    The problem -and we all agree upon this- that:

    1-The treo is outdated technology wise (people, despite being happy with what you have, this is a fact and can never be understood as a good thing, period).
    2- Palm is not giving us much hope. (Who can tell me if there will be a new OS 6, or ALP, or will they stick to WM? We don't know. I don't know if I will ever see another POS device ever).

    Thats it. I am complaining that devices are aging, and Palm is not acting or giving me hope that the POS will stay.

    I know you are happy with Treo, I still have mine too.
    But know this, if things continue as they are I do will not see many defenders for the company stance. Heck, one more year of deprivation & this forum will be host to angry users and retro hobbyists but no treo users.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    Guys..
    The subject is not how good or effective a treo is.

    The problem -and we all agree upon this- that:

    1-The treo is outdated technology wise (people, despite being happy with what you have, this is a fact and can never be understood as a good thing, period).
    2- Palm is not giving us much hope. (Who can tell me if there will be a new OS 6, or ALP, or will they stick to WM? We don't know. I don't know if I will ever see another POS device ever).
    1) my treo 650 is 2 years old, so no surprize that it has technology from 2 years ago in it. But it still is pretty uptodate IMHO. it is missing Wifi but that is a design choice not because of outdated technology..
    The new treo's are using current technology though.. can't wait for that new announced GSM treo.
    Just because a treo doesnt have all of the high end features available on the market doesnt make it outdated technology.
    A new toyota corolla (random example) for example doesnt have BMW's/Corvettes HUD but one could hardly argue it is using outdated technology

    2) you have a point here, palmsource http://www.palmsource.com/index.html(mind you this is a different company than Palm(One)http://www.palm.com/us/company/) hasnt been announcing anything that indicate a new POS version.
    A new POS version that multitasks would be nice..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  6. #26  
    PalmSource Talks... here.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by detective
    PalmSource Talks... here.
    Thanks for the link, very usefull
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    The problem -and we all agree upon this- that:

    The treo is outdated technology wise (people, despite being happy with what you have, this is a fact and can never be understood as a good thing, period).
    No we don't all agree on this. Each time I see this statement and ask the question, "who makes a device with Treo's form factor, touch screen, 320 x 320, no slide out, hinged or spinning keyboard, easy one handed operation and all of Treo's features + this new technology ?", no one answers.

    What is this new technology you are asking for ?

    EVDO - It's there
    HSDPA - Wait 45 days
    WiFi - Subject to carrier influences, cost, size and other limitations.
    Multitasking - Available with WM5 but too many compromises.

    Design is the porcess of selecting a series of features which one can provide within limitations of time, cost, physical size and technology. If it means a 10 ounce Treo, it's not happening.....if it means compromising ease of use, it's not happening......if it means carriers will stop promoting that device, it ain't happening.

    Other vendors have been able to provide new technologies but only by sacrificing Treo functionality......for example.....Unit A will give you a bigger screen but at the cost of a weight increase of 60%, loss of 1 handed operation and it no longer fits easily in ya shirt pocket.

    The only thing I would take if it was an option is WiFi.....but it would have to be at marginal cost as our county wide network won't be completed for 2 or 3 years. Even EVDO / HSDPA isn't available in most places . I know what they publish on their coverage maps but each time I venture into one of the three EVDO areas near me....there's no signal.....and this is IN the carrier's store.

    The problem with each of these new devcies that come sout with a piece of "new technology" is that it sacrifices one or more features that make the Treo the 800 pound gorilla. Now if someone does manage to cram something in and still keep the best one handed implementation, 6 ounce neighborhood, shirt pocket fittin device doing all I am goinna ask it to do, then I'll be the first to say that the Treo's taken a solid punch. But everyone who has brought "something new" has left too much of why I have a Treo behind.

    New for the sake of new is worthless to me....new, useful and better is something I will pay attention to. WiFi for example isn't going to excite me unless I frequent places where it is available. My bet is Palm will hold off on WiFi a bit longer, giving into the carriers cries of reduced revenue until they can successfully argue that the product willl no longer be able to compete due to competition from vendors. I don't think they are quite there yet nor are there anough sites available to make this a major detriment at THIS point in time. I think we will soon see the carriers with a quad band GSM Treo w/ HSDPA and sometime thereafter there will an "unlocked" version which will have WiFi as partial justification of the $300 price difference typically seen when carriers subsidize new equipment costs.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    1) A new toyota corolla (random example) for example doesnt have BMW's/Corvettes HUD but one could hardly argue it is using outdated technology

    2) you have a point here, palmsource http://www.palmsource.com/index.html(mind you this is a different company than Palm(One)http://www.palm.com/us/company/) hasnt been announcing anything that indicate a new POS version.
    A new POS version that multitasks would be nice..
    1) well, if you are in the market for a sports car then yes it would be.
    A better example is a Corvette and the previous gen. Corvette.

    2) We had a good run, eh?
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    1) well, if you are in the market for a sports car then yes it would be.
    A better example is a Corvette and the previous gen. Corvette.
    The problem is that the treo is designed as a bussiness sedan not as a sportscar.. so if you expect off road capabilities or sportscar performance you'll be dissapointed, but that is hardly palms fault.. just like it isnt volkwagens fault if you are dissapointed that the passat doesnt do a 10 second quarter mile..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  11.    #31  
    ^ what I meant was compare oranges with oranges
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    ^ what I meant was compare oranges with oranges
    I was using cars as a metaphore to explain the point..
    By now you probably understand what I meant, so no point in dragging on about it..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I was using cars as a metaphor to explain the point..
    By now you probably understand what I meant, so no point in dragging on about it..
    Cars is a Excellent metaphor IMHO.

    True there is no single class of transportation that will do everything you might want to.

    Either way I find its better than walking or in the phones case using a pay phone


    SR66
    The best proof that their is intelligent life in outer space is: that they haven't made contact
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    1) my treo 650 is 2 years old, so no surprize that it has technology from 2 years ago in it. But it still is pretty uptodate IMHO. it is missing Wifi but that is a design choice not because of outdated technology..
    The new treo's are using current technology though.. can't wait for that new announced GSM treo.
    Unfortunately, the brand new 700P has pretty much the same technology. Other than EvDO, the device really hasn't changed at all. (Yes, it has more memory, but as far as I'm concerned 64MB is still 2 year old tech. The 650 should have had 64MB.) PoS still doesn't support true multi-tasking, and it seems to be struggling to manage even 64MB of memory and EVDO. Blazer seems to need major work to support surfing at EVDO speeds. The PIM apps haven't changed substantially in 10 or 15 years, and 3rd party products on both WM5 and PoS platforms offer dramatically better capabilities.

    And I disagree about WiFi. Palm doesn't seem the least bit reluctant to include it on the 700W, and the phone companies all offer other phones with WiFi. And no 3rd party vendors have managed to provide drivers for existing WiFi cards that work fine in other Palm OS devices. I think it's much more likely Palm doesn't offer WiFi on the PoS Treos because they can't get it to work in concert with the phone software under the PoS. Real multitasking would probably end this limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    2) you have a point here, palmsource http://www.palmsource.com/index.html(mind you this is a different company than Palm(One)http://www.palm.com/us/company/) hasnt been announcing anything that indicate a new POS version.
    A new POS version that multitasks would be nice..
    Both Palm and PalmSource appear to be developing Linux based OS's, but the question is what will they look like. Based on preview pics shown a while ago, ALP doesn't appear to have anything in common with the existing Palm interface. Will it be clean and simple and one-handed like the current PoS? Or will it be a multi-media laden, over-wrought heavyweight like WM? Given that Access has no background in building PIM software (that I'm aware of), and multi-media is the BIG THING these days, I'll bet it's going to be big and complex. NOT what I'm looking for in a PDA.

    Palm, OTOH, does have a background in simple, easy to use PIM apps. But based on their recent history, I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually build a new OS that works, at least not in any reasonable time span. Palm can't even manage to capitalize on the work done by others and add useful features to the phone. Why, 2 generations after the Treo 600, do we still need to add software like Butler, Profiles, TreoGuard and more just to get basic capabilities that are built into basic $100 phones?

    * * * * *

    Don't get me wrong. I'm what many here would call a Palm "fanboy." I've been using Palm devices since the Palm III, and I find WM decidedly second rate. The simplicity and basic ease of use of PoS is far more valuable to me than all the bells and whistles and MM features of WM5. But I'm still very disapointed in the lack of progress Palm has made with the Treo. MS has made real, significant improvements in WM over the last few years. What has Palm accomplished on the software side? Well, the 700P buzzes once when you turn the ringer off. And the flashing snowflake has become a flashing bell. Wow!
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  15. #35  
    I too miss a few things in palm OS (a weekly view like myweek in the calendar for example). and true multitasking would be nice..

    But that is all in palmsource's court and palm has little control over it
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  16.    #36  
    OH meyerweb you are right and thats exactly how I feel.

    I still can't understand why I have to buy a "Programe" to have MP3 tones, esp. since it already plays the things. And I really missed my recurrent morning alarm with snooze in the morning. I had this on Nokias and SEs so long I took it forgranted.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I too miss a few things in palm OS (a weekly view like myweek in the calendar for example). and true multitasking would be nice..

    But that is all in palmsource's court and palm has little control over it
    Well, PalmSource and Palm weren't always two different companies, and Palm didn't do anything to improve the software when it was theirs. AND, Palm chose to rid themselves of the software; no one forced them to do it. If they had any interest in improving the PIM apps and phone software, they had the means to do it.

    In truth, Palm's done almost nothing to improve the platform since buying Handspring. It was Handspring that did the innovation, not Palm. And I see nothing to indicate that Palm has the capacity for real innovation any more. The best thing that could happen to the Treo would be for Palm to spin the old Handspring off as a separate company, but this time adequate finances.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    1) my treo 650 is 2 years old, so no surprize that it has technology from 2 years ago in it. But it still is pretty uptodate IMHO. it is missing Wifi but that is a design choice not because of outdated technology..
    On the contrary, your 650 doesn't support Wifi because of its outdated OS. Notice how the 700w can easily support Palm's wifi SD card, but the 650 doesn't. What are the biggest difference between the 650 and the 700w? The OS. The 700w is running a newer, up to date OS, while the 650 is on a very old OS that can't handle a cell radio and a wifi radio at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    No we don't all agree on this. Each time I see this statement and ask the question, "who makes a device with Treo's form factor, touch screen, 320 x 320, no slide out, hinged or spinning keyboard, easy one handed operation and all of Treo's features + this new technology ?", no one answers.
    And when people say the Treo is outdated technology wise, they mean "Why can't Palm make a device like the Treo (PalmOS, not WM) that has all the signature features of the Treo, but also has some of the newer technology that we see in other devices?" And don't say it can't be done or that it woud be too expensive because it wouldn't be. The only reason the Treo lags behind in technology is becase of the OS. As you can see with the Treo 700w, the Treo is fully capable of using newer technology with an updated OS (although Palm bungled the 700w)

    EVDO - It's there
    HSDPA - Wait 45 days
    WiFi - Subject to carrier influences, cost, size and other limitations.
    Multitasking - Available with WM5 but too many compromises.
    EvDO is there...and from what I've been seeing, it's not performing to its full ability because of PalmOS5
    HSDPA - I haven't heard reports of a PalmOS Treo having HSDPA, but if it's there, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't fully perform like EvDO does...
    Wifi - Not true. The carriers have nothing to do with wifi. All major carriers carry devices that have wifi on them (namely, WM5 devices). Cost and size don't have anything to do with it, the only "other limitation" here, is PalmOS5
    Multitasking - but when will we get this in a PalmOS Treo? It's looking like never right now....

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    New for the sake of new is worthless to me....new, useful and better is something I will pay attention to.
    Ok, but who says these new technologies aren't useful? They may not be useful to you, but they could be useful to many other people.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    And when people say the Treo is outdated technology wise, they mean "Why can't Palm make a device like the Treo (PalmOS, not WM) that has all the signature features of the Treo, but also has some of the newer technology that we see in other devices?" And don't say it can't be done or that it woud be too expensive because it wouldn't be. The only reason the Treo lags behind in technology is becase of the OS. As you can see with the Treo 700w, the Treo is fully capable of using newer technology with an updated OS (although Palm bungled the 700w)
    Well then if it's so easy, why has no one made it ? I have asked two dozen times and no one has pointed me to this magic device as yet. I'm also still waiting for someone to provide this apparently substantial list of USEFUL things that one can do with a 700w that I can't do with a 700p.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well then if it's so easy, why has no one made it ? I have asked two dozen times and no one has pointed me to this magic device as yet. I'm also still waiting for someone to provide this apparently substantial list of USEFUL things that one can do with a 700w that I can't do with a 700p.
    Surf the web a true EvDO speeds? Listen to streaming audio without it skipping?
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
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