View Poll Results: Do you believe Palm is failing to provide consumers want they want and need?

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  • Yes

    75 52.45%
  • No

    68 47.55%
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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The key folds back into the body of the keygrip. Its probably from an older Mercedes, before they went completely keyless and infra-red.

    http://www.lilviv.com/motoring/cars/c240/keys.jpg

    Surur
    I believe that's a VW key. You push the button and the key folds out. Fancy Europeans.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The key folds back into the body of the keygrip. Its probably from an older Mercedes, before they went completely keyless and infra-red.

    http://www.lilviv.com/motoring/cars/c240/keys.jpg

    Surur
    We have a 1998 E200 in our house.

    It has that key.

    If you want me to take a picture of it to compare its size, ask.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by redbelt
    OK, lets look at what a consumer has as Palm OS options:
    Treo 650 & Treo 600
    Thats it. They look very similar and are almost identical. Its hardly two products really.
    I couldn't disagree more. I found the 600's screen inadequate. And I would not be using a smartphone if it required me to wear a wire running down my ear to my shirt pocket or dashboard cradle.

    Where are these laptop / PC improvements you mentioned .... what feature has been added to the PC in the last 6 months, 12, 18, 36 to make it worth upgrading ?

    1. Most people / corps will not buy smartphones on anything more frequent than a 18-24 month cycle.
    2. Since, BT, there have been no significant "must have" additions to the smartphone market. Yes, there are smartphones, with built in GPS, Yes there are smartphones with built in WiFi. But these are additions pursued by only a very small segment of the market. Most important, to add one of these functions you sacrifice significant battery life reduction.
    3. Design, testing, training, carrier adoption and development probably cost as much as $100 per device. Adjust for a new device and shorter write off times and your $670 700p is now $$870.

    If you are going to argue that the 600 and the 650 "are the same thing", doesn't that push the argument for even more time between releases ? After all why bother if it's the "same thing" ?

    Should there have been a 625 with the better screen and then a 650 with the screen and BT ? Seems like a big waste of T & E. The only answer I have to all of the clamoring for this one all in one convergence device with every feature that everyone ever thought of rolled into one is ? If Palm is so STOOPID, for not building it, why isn't anyone else building it ? Could it be that except for 50 Forum users on TC, no one would buy it ? These people spend fortunes on consumer surveys....if these surveys showed a huge clamor for more frequent releases or a way that someone could make money by doing so, I would think some young turk would have convinced management somewhere to do it.

    -There is a limit to what people will spend
    -There is a limit to how much life you can get out of battery
    -There is a limit to how much stuff you can stick in a device before you overwhelm for form factor or heat dissipation capabilities.

    Everybody has the same list of desired features, say 1-15. Each engineering and marketing department has cost, size and battery limits to deal with. No one has yet been able to get all features 1 thru 15 in a single devcie. So Palm picked 1-10, 11,13 and 15...Motorola picked 1-9, 12 and 14, other vendor will pick different combos and hope that thier miz will best appeal to buyers.

    If adding feature 12 to the Treo means dropping feature 10, and adding $75, I think people will then whine about missing feature 10 and "how could they charge more money...". Until component parts drop in size, cost, heat output and power consumption, every devcie will have to offer some compromise or another.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Yes, there are smartphones, with built in GPS ... But these are additions pursued by only a very small segment of the market.
    Your statement is mostly true, but I have to disagree with this specific point. GPS is currently the killer mobility feature, and like cameras is a natural fit for a convergent device. You will see it popping up in all kinds of gadgets with screens soon, and if Palm does not step up to the plate they will be left behind.

    Jack, remember in all of this that, despite Palm appearing to be doing well, they are doing very poorly compared to their larger competitors (Nokia, RIM and HTC). Despite appearances Palm has not found the formula for eternal success, which raises the question "Is Palm failing?"

    Surur
  5. #105  
    Let this thread die already!
    University Of Pittsburgh
    Class of 2010
  6. #106  
    Why?
    Just call me Berd.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle
    Why?
    I'm sorry, I forgot I shouldn't come on here when i'm angry. I called my palm store today, AGAIN, and the guy told me the 700p is coming in "sometime this week". I said, but how am I supposed to know when to come and buy it. His response, "It's coming in sometime this week".
    University Of Pittsburgh
    Class of 2010
  8. Haggar's Avatar
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Despite appearances Palm has not found the formula for eternal success, which raises the question "Is Palm failing?"
    The moment any company thinks they've found the formula for "eternal success" is the beginning of their decline...
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    The moment any company thinks they've found the formula for "eternal success" is the beginning of their decline...
    You mean like the Treo 600 form-factor?

    Surur
  10. #110  
    I just got my 700p and you guys are bumming me out. But it seems you are all just sweating it over WIFI and bluetooth voice calling. I'll give you the bluetooth voice calling. No doubt it should be included. No one can argue that. I'll give you WIFI - but only if you live/travel frequently outside the US where EVDO coverage is limited. In that case, the EVDO improvement is useless to you, save yourself some money and keep your 650.

    But if you live in the USA as I do, EVDO makes the 700 a much larger leap over the 650 then the 650 was over the 600. EVDO extends the Treo's usability a lot more than the hi-res screen and bluetooth improvements did with the 650. Those were bells and whistles that I didn't think the 650 was worth paying a full upgrade for. I waited until Lockline replaced the worn and beaten carcass of my 600 for a mere $50. But EVDO + more memory than I will ever use + a finally worthy camera + including the apps that should be included (pTunes, docsToGo) makes this a big jump IMO.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  11. Haggar's Avatar
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    You mean like the Treo 600 form-factor?

    Surur
    Yeeup.
  12. Haggar's Avatar
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    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    I just got my 700p and you guys are bumming me out. But it seems you are all just sweating it over WIFI and bluetooth voice calling. I'll give you the bluetooth voice calling. No doubt it should be included. No one can argue that. I'll give you WIFI - but only if you live/travel frequently outside the US where EVDO coverage is limited. In that case, the EVDO improvement is useless to you, save yourself some money and keep your 650.

    But if you live in the USA as I do, EVDO makes the 700 a much larger leap over the 650 then the 650 was over the 600. EVDO extends the Treo's usability a lot more than the hi-res screen and bluetooth improvements did with the 650. Those were bells and whistles that I didn't think the 650 was worth paying a full upgrade for. I waited until Lockline replaced the worn and beaten carcass of my 600 for a mere $50. But EVDO + more memory than I will ever use + a finally worthy camera + including the apps that should be included (pTunes, docsToGo) makes this a big jump IMO.
    Yawn. I'm tired of this debate.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Your statement is mostly true, but I have to disagree with this specific point. GPS is currently the killer mobility feature, and like cameras is a natural fit for a convergent device. You will see it popping up in all kinds of gadgets with screens soon, and if Palm does not step up to the plate they will be left behind.
    I think it's the "killer app" of late 2007 early 2008. With a $50 chip and $150 software, tho, I think now that $200 is just too much of a premium....it would for example double the cost of a lowrider. If TomTom or whomever drops their price to say $50-75 and the chip hits $25 it starts to seem feasible. Maybe ya get ya home county for $20 or ya get a 3 month trial, that could speed up adoption.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, remember in all of this that, despite Palm appearing to be doing well, they are doing very poorly compared to their larger competitors (Nokia, RIM and HTC). Despite appearances Palm has not found the formula for eternal success, which raises the question "Is Palm failing?"
    Toyota outsells Porsche but they compete in different markets. Margins on ya typical Nokia phone are in the single digits while Palm has gotta be clearing $100 per Treo sold. I think Palm's outlook has gotta be brighter than RIM's for example because Palm has a better chance of horning in on RIM's 1.7 million "device" sales than RIM does on horning in on Palm's 600k Treo sales (I think Palm like Dell and HP will all but drop PDA's w/o phones). I think the atypical BB "e-mail device" and the plain old PDA is already a dinosaur.

    I think RIM users are starting to see the Treo as being able to give them what their BB's do plus "some other cool stuff" whereas Treo users mostly see the BB as coming up short next to the Treos. The BB is your Dad's mundane sedan .... the Treo is the flashy sports sedan.

    I don't think anyone is ready to write off Porsche because Toyota is about to eclipse GM as the world's largest carmaker....given the choice what will most people take ? When ya can get a Porsche for about the price of Camry, I think people will choose the one from Stutgart. Don't get me wrong, a Palm mistep could lose that image almost overnight.....if they for example were to let this magic device with GPS and WiFi plus all the regular Treo goodies hit the streets for $500 without an answer from Palm within even 90 days they could "lose the title".

    Look at the boxing world, in the last year or so seemingly invincible fighters such as Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones have become "has beens". But many were predicting their demise long before they fell from dominance. Hopkins fall was predicted from when he hit 30 in 1995 but it took 10 more years for him to lose a fight. So if we compare the Treo to Bernard Hopkins, the question is is it the Hopkins of 1993 or the one of 2005 ? I kinda thinking, at this point in time, that Palm's safely in the middle years between those two extremes. But like Roy Jones' downfall, it only takes one punch to put the opponent on the mat. I don't see nayone on the horizon just yet who appears ready to throw that punch....ask me again in February.
  14. Haggar's Avatar
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I think it's the "killer app" of late 2007 early 2008. With a $50 chip and $150 software, tho, I think now that $200 is just too much of a premium....it would for example double the cost of a lowrider. If TomTom or whomever drops their price to say $50-75 and the chip hits $25 it starts to seem feasible. Maybe ya get ya home county for $20 or ya get a 3 month trial, that could speed up adoption.



    Toyota outsells Porsche but they compete in different markets. Margins on ya typical Nokia phone are in the single digits while Palm has gotta be clearing $100 per Treo sold. I think Palm's outlook has gotta be brighter than RIM's for example because Palm has a better chance of horning in on RIM's 1.7 million "device" sales than RIM does on horning in on Palm's 600k Treo sales (I think Palm like Dell and HP will all but drop PDA's w/o phones). I think the atypical BB "e-mail device" and the plain old PDA is already a dinosaur.

    I think RIM users are starting to see the Treo as being able to give them what their BB's do plus "some other cool stuff" whereas Treo users mostly see the BB as coming up short next to the Treos. The BB is your Dad's mundane sedan .... the Treo is the flashy sports sedan.

    I don't think anyone is ready to write off Porsche because Toyota is about to eclipse GM as the world's largest carmaker....given the choice what will most people take ? When ya can get a Porsche for about the price of Camry, I think people will choose the one from Stutgart. Don't get me wrong, a Palm mistep could lose that image almost overnight.....if they for example were to let this magic device with GPS and WiFi plus all the regular Treo goodies hit the streets for $500 without an answer from Palm within even 90 days they could "lose the title".

    Look at the boxing world, in the last year or so seemingly invincible fighters such as Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones have become "has beens". But many were predicting their demise long before they fell from dominance. Hopkins fall was predicted from when he hit 30 in 1995 but it took 10 more years for him to lose a fight. So if we compare the Treo to Bernard Hopkins, the question is is it the Hopkins of 1993 or the one of 2005 ? I kinda thinking, at this point in time, that Palm's safely in the middle years between those two extremes. But like Roy Jones' downfall, it only takes one punch to put the opponent on the mat. I don't see nayone on the horizon just yet who appears ready to throw that punch....ask me again in February.
    MODS: Can we please change the name of this site to "Metaphor Central" ??

    Good points, Jack... As has been said in just about every single thread - the Treo fits a part of the market...it may not be the "mass" of the market, but there is definitely a market (and a profitiable one right now) for Treo.

    From the looks of Hollywood and Lowrider, Palm may be "getting it"...only time will tell...
  15. #115  
    Jack Says:
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    BTW, this still needs a "when you quote someone, no need to quote 150 freakin lines if you are only asking / referring about 3 of them".
    Just call me Berd.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I think it's the "killer app" of late 2007 early 2008. With a $50 chip and $150 software, tho, I think now that $200 is just too much of a premium....it would for example double the cost of a lowrider. If TomTom or whomever drops their price to say $50-75 and the chip hits $25 it starts to seem feasible. Maybe ya get ya home county for $20 or ya get a 3 month trial, that could speed up adoption
    That kind of what HP is doing with the HP hw6515. It comes with TomTom and a free map of one city for 327 (excluding tax). You can buy additional maps ( and ? download over the air). This compares to the Treo 650 for 331 (excluding tax) without GPS or any maps. Apparently the HP unit is selling quite well in the EU, and the HP 6915 is getting good reviews.
    http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=135815
    http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=120563

    Its certainly very true that Palm believes they can charge a premium for a slick UI with less functionality than their competitors. Maybe no-one but geeks actually realize this. However when some-one goes to the phone shop looking for a GPS phone, Palm will automatically not be in the line-up, and they wont look very competitive on the feature check list either, even if not looking for a GPS phone, especially when they charge the same price for less.

    I know you are saying Palm is a premium brand, but they are not here. They haven't exactly done anything to earn such a reputation either.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 05/30/2006 at 06:47 PM.
  17. Cartman's Avatar
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    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I think RIM users are starting to see the Treo as being able to give them what their BB's do plus "some other cool stuff" whereas Treo users mostly see the BB as coming up short next to the Treos. The BB is your Dad's mundane sedan .... the Treo is the flashy sports sedan.
    Unless I am mistaken..the treo 700p comes no where close to the BB in terms of instant email/contact/calendar and most importantly security...those are the things that the BB is very good at and is still a market leader in.

    ...yes there are third party solutions for the 700p that will get you the similar features and functionality...but its not an out of the box solution built my Palm...

    ...just keeping it real... BB is still (by far) the market leader when it comes to the stuff I mentioned above....and the 700p will not change things.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its certainly very true that Palm believes they can charge a premium for a slick UI with less functionality than their competitors. Maybe no-one but geeks actually realize this. However when some-one goes to the phone shop looking for a GPS phone, Palm will automatically not be in the line-up, and they wont look very competitive on the feature check list either, even if not looking for a GPS phone, especially when they charge the same price for less.
    Less or different ?

    Does this HP model offer 320 x 320 min touch screen, 3G no slide out keyboard, edits office docs, complete one handed useability ?
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by gex
    Unless I am mistaken..the treo 700p comes no where close to the BB in terms of instant email/contact/calendar and most importantly security...those are the things that the BB is very good at and is still a market leader in.

    ...yes there are third party solutions for the 700p that will get you the similar features and functionality...but its not an out of the box solution built my Palm...

    ...just keeping it real... BB is still (by far) the market leader when it comes to the stuff I mentioned above....and the 700p will not change things.
    Again, Dad's old, safe, secure Bonneville Brougham versus a hot handling Lexus or BMW. Yes the BB is good at one thing, but the Treo is good at a dozen things. I have yet to see anyone (corporate or individual) go from Treos to BB ... now I have seen many corps and individuals go the other way.

    Does Joanne Realtor excited about her e-mails pushed to her every 60 seconds or is she more thrilled by all the custom realtor apps, GPS to site, i-pod like music library and room snapshots / movies she can show her clients and get her e-mail after 65 seconds
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    MODS: Can we please change the name of this site to "Metaphor Central" ??

    Good points, Jack... As has been said in just about every single thread - the Treo fits a part of the market...it may not be the "mass" of the market, but there is definitely a market (and a profitiable one right now) for Treo.

    From the looks of Hollywood and Lowrider, Palm may be "getting it"...only time will tell...
    I thought you were tired of this debate.

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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