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  1. #41  
    LadyTreo, all we need now to keep Palm OS alive is another Million or Two die hard, bitter end, Palm OS fans like Jack & Perry, see watch

    Jack, tell the nice lady what you were telling me about Microsoft and Windows being on the way out.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    No, they wont stop bundling and I wont stop complaining about it . I gonna try buying the UK version of windows sans media player tho. I can yank much of the stuff out with this:

    http://www.litepc.com/xplite.html
    Jack - does this thing really work? I thought OEM's customize WinXP Pro so further "stripping" would be risky to your notebook's health.
    Last edited by dstrauss; 03/25/2006 at 10:19 AM.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    LadyTreo, all we need now to keep Palm OS alive is another Million or Two die hard, bitter end, Palm OS fans like Jack & Perry, see watch

    Jack, tell the nice lady what you were telling me about Microsoft and Windows being on the way out.
    Blaze, you always seem so angry. Does someone need a hug?
    Freedom of some speech in the US, through someone in the UK.
  4. #44  
    How 'bout a spoon?
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    LadyTreo, all we need now to keep Palm OS alive is another Million or Two die hard, bitter end, Palm OS fans like Jack & Perry, see watch

    Jack, tell the nice lady what you were telling me about Microsoft and Windows being on the way out.
    Any IT person of relevance receives a free copy of Infoworld so you must have this month's issue. Just read the article about MS becoming irrelevant. You like to complain about the age of the Palm OS, how old is XP by comparison ? Vista's been carved down to a shadow of what Longhorn was suppossed to be with two series of feature cuts and now they have delayed even the shortened job yet again. IBM was untouchable in the 70's, it was the choice portfolio stock for conservative investors. Yet they were toppled.
    I think it's hard to say MS is stronger now than IBM was back then.

    While I couldn't quite yet agree with the author's conclusion, in a world market, Windows mindshare is decreasing, not increasing. Norton was once the "solid choice" where you didn't even think about anything else till they just frustarted their user base into switching vendors. Every office I enter with an IT budget is asking about alternatives. Government agencies are dropping and even mandating submission on "open" platforms. Five years ago, I never heard this...now it's asked 50% of the time. We keep at least 1 copy of the 3 major commercial office suites in the office to suit client delivery requirments. Now I am getting contracts that say "open document format". As Mr. Zimmerman said "The times, they are a changin; "
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 03/25/2006 at 10:05 AM.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlaze74
    LadyTreo, all we need now to keep Palm OS alive is another Million or Two die hard, bitter end, Palm OS fans like Jack & Perry, see watch

    Jack, tell the nice lady what you were telling me about Microsoft and Windows being on the way out.

    LOL

    Hey Blaze -- I do resemble that remark. 10 Years in the making. However -- the Treo w/ FrankenGarnet does everything I want it to do. Other's may want what WM5 offers and PalmOS devices will lose them. Colbalt was a bomb for whatever reason. If Palm/Linux/ALP doesn't hunt, the PalmOS will die -- and for now -- I can wait until then to see.

    Cheers, Perry.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Any IT person of relevance receives a free copy of Infoworld so you must have this month's issue. Just read the article about MS becoming irrelevant. You like to complain about the age of the Palm OS, how old is XP by comparison ? Vista's been carved down to a shadow of what Longhorn was suppossed to be with two series of feature cuts and now they have delayed even the shortened job yet again. IBM was untouchable in the 70's, it was the choice portfolio stock for conservative investors. Yet they were toppled.
    I think it's hard to say MS is stronger now than IBM was back then.

    While I couldn't quite yet agree with the author's conclusion, in a world market, Windows mindshare is decreasing, not increasing. Norton was once the "solid choice" where you didn't even think about anything else till they just frustarted their user base into switching vendors. Every office I enter with an IT budget is asking about alternatives. Government agencies are dropping and even mandating submission on "open" platforms. Five years ago, I never heard this...now it's asked 50% of the time. We keep at least 1 copy of the 3 major commercial office suites in the office to suit client delivery requirments. Now I am getting contracts that say "open document format". As Mr. Zimmerman said "The times, they are a changin; "
    hehe, see I told you, Microsoft on the way out, PalmOS here to stay
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    Jack - does this thing really work? I thought OEM's customize WinXP Pro so further "stripping" would be risky to your notebook's health.
    I build all of our desktops and spec order our laptops. Only way we will accept a laptop is if it comes with standard Windows CD and Manual .... none of that rescue CD stuff. If you gonna buy a Vaio at Staples you risk that stuff. My last Toshiba (circa 1996) for example arrived witha 50 MB screensaver on a 1.2 Gig HD. I can't afford that kind of overhead.

    LitePC works great, whatever you uninstall can be reinstalled. I am typing from a windows PC right now with no MediaPlayer, No internet explorer, no Outlook, and it smokes my son's hot gaming box in many tasks liek CAD despite that fact that his CPU frequency is 5 times this one. This box has 15k scsi drives and the cost premium on those is $800 each. When I built the box, I spent the money cause it gave me a 15% performance boost,... the same boost ya get in programs like Adobe by stripping IE.

    I never used XP Lite tho as there's no XP on production boxes. My sons have XP cause gaming companies have decided to cut costs by only supporting machines with "latest OS". In our last round of corporate purchases, the XP / Win2k side by side comparison wasn't favorable to XP, so like many corps, we stuck with Win2k.
  9. #49  
    Jack, you sound a bit superstitious. When I'm not running IE there's no IEXPLORE.EXE in task manager, and the same goes for WMPlayer, and Outlook does not even come free on a standard PC. About the only thing you avoid is the clutter these programs add to the registry. If you dont like a program, dont run it. Its mere presence is not infecting your computer.

    Surur
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, you sound a bit superstitious. When I'm not running IE there's no IEXPLORE.EXE in task manager, and the same goes for WMPlayer, and Outlook does not even come free on a standard PC. About the only thing you avoid is the clutter these programs add to the registry. If you dont like a program, dont run it. Its mere presence is not infecting your computer.

    Surur
    Agree...just don't use any screensaver, no wallpaper or desktop image, especially if your video card is intergrated and you have 128mb of combined memory or lower, then refrane from using any of the standard software that have no use, and performance shouldn't be hampered. I have a 256mb NVIDIA GeForceTM 7800 video card, 2ghz processor with 1gb SDRAM at 533mhz on my notebook with 17" wide screen 1680x1050 native res and it can handle it without lag, and if I cant pump a high res desktop image or flash fancy screensaver and play video games along with it, then we all need to wipe out the clutter of software on our computers.
  11. #51  
    You have some really good specs on your notebook!! I'm jealous!!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, you sound a bit superstitious. When I'm not running IE there's no IEXPLORE.EXE in task manager, and the same goes for WMPlayer, and Outlook does not even come free on a standard PC. About the only thing you avoid is the clutter these programs add to the registry. If you dont like a program, dont run it. Its mere presence is not infecting your computer.

    Surur
    Yes it would appear that way on the surface of things but you have to dig a bit deeper than what MS puts in their marketing brochuresl. Once ya dig ya find the error of that assumption. And ya gatta get past the marketingspeak guys and see what's actually been done.

    Before getting into details, would it not be possible to do the following:

    1. To run a program, let's say it needs to load 12 files into memory comprising 350 MB's.

    2. One of the ways to do this would be to have the program launch initiate the loading of all 12 files into memory.

    3. Wouldn't it also be possible to load 11 of those files into memory at bootup and then just launch the 12th file when starting the program ?

    All three major Office Suite vendors do exactly that. Lotus calls it suitestart and I forget what MS and Corel call it. Lotus and Corel however are saddled with only being able to do this as part of an installation program. MS has the opportunity to do this from the getgo and does it for Office as well as IE, OE and other MS apps.

    Iexplore.exe is ONLY part of what runs internet explorer. Before Win98, what explore.exe did and iexplore.exe were completely separate processes. What they did in W98 was shift a lot of the overhead of iexplore.exe into explore.exe. I bet you see that running when you are not running MSIE. This is well documented and the whole reason that Bill G claimed in the trial that you couldn't take IE out. Of course the government proved he was less than truthful.

    What the government showed and what the original 98lite did was:

    "98micro is an installation option in 98lite PROFESSIONAL that uses the Windows 95 Explorer to perform an ultra-clean installation of Windows98 without any part of the MS HTML (Internet Explorer) engine. You get a lean, mean operating system in under 70 Mb that is ideal for many applications. You can push the envelope further and get Windows98 under 50 Mb! (see below)"

    This cripples Outlook Express (which is in fact part of the OS), FrontPage, and MS Money because MS shifted part of their overhead into explore.exe also.

    Now if MSIE bundling shift adds no bloat to the OS, how do you explain the perfomance increases of up to 25% shown in the tables here simply by yanking it out ? A 25% performance to an Adobe program user is nothing to snicker at. What's 25% worth ? On a laptop a Pentium M725 is $160 A Pentium M 780 (25% fatser) is $669.....so 25% is worth $509. Now do that to ya memory, hard drives whatever and see what the total cost of $25% is/

    http://www.litepc.com/perform.html

    In the court case MS was forced to continually back off on their stated testimony going from "Windows can't run w/o IE", to "windows runs slower w/o MSIE" (where they got caught submitting a doctored videotape) to finally admitting that Windows was faster w/o MSIE.

    So no, the assumption that there is no overhead if you don't launch a program is a false one. There are many things you can do to speed a system up by removing bloat you don't need that was installed to make your sytem appear to run other things faster when you launch them. All these little sneaky boot time loads into memory exact a performance toll on your system. Compare your memory usage for XP with that listed here:

    http://www.litepc.com/graphics/xplite_memory.png

    Less memory eaten by the OS means more memory available for programs, less paging and faster performance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XPLite


    PC World Writes:

    "In theory, removing parts of the OS you don't want should yield a faster, more dependable, more secure environment. My casual hand-timed tests with an XPLite shipping copy did show modest to impressive speed improvements, depending on the task."

    Information Week Writes:

    "For my test, I selected all 120 items for removal, and let XPlite go to work. It took about half an hour of disk thrashing, plus a reboot, but when it was done, I ended up with a minimal XP installation less than half the size of the original--53% less, to be precise--or just under 850 Mbytes (that's 0.85 Gbytes)."

    Also on the security side:

    http://www.securitypipeline.com/shar...cleId=52601280
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 03/26/2006 at 02:25 PM.
  13. #53  
    I could also launch win xp into the command line, and have no bloat at all. I actually use Outlook Express as my e-mail client (as it integrates well with hotmail and is much faster than outlook). I use MS Money, which is basically a big web page. When I completely remove IE, who's going to provide the HTML renderer? I use Maxthon, a IE plug-in, with 32 tabs open currently. Again, if I eradicate IE, what do I gain except a non-functional browser? I use Real Rhapsody, which uses MS DRM in a different wrapper. If I delete WMP, will it still work?

    To get to the same level of functionality you have to add in as much stuff as you remove. I run my PC 24/7, I run servers on it, I only reboot for patches and driver installs. XPLite sounds like a good recipe for some-one who doesn't use their PC at all.

    Surur
  14. #54  
    Point being for example, if you wanna use Quicken, why be crippled by having part of MS Money running ? MS has hobbled the OS with "boosts" and "features" which compliment its own products. If you use those products, its great, but if you don't you are often running, at least in part, two of the same thing. That's the goal , make it look like competitor's products run slower. Why do I have to have the burden of MS Money's rendering engine running if I am using say Peachtree ?

    The goal was to eliminate the choice and make it morre difficult / inconvenient to run other products. The goal was to say "look how fast IE loads" as it had 80% of it running already compared to netscape which runs from scratch.

    If you run MS programs or plug in for MS programs it simply comes down to which implentation is faster. Many people note thta Mozilla / Firefox is faster than IE, but how much faster still would it be if you didn't have IE's burden ? If you run non MS programs, xplite just gives you the opportunity to run them on a level playing field.

    In a print shop, where a machine sits there all day and runs Pagemaker, there's huge ROI's to be gained. For my Aunt Tillie who is gonna use OE and IE anyway, it makes no difference. Everyone else sits somewhere in between.
  15. #55  
    True, but in a MS world most people would lean more towards Aunt Tilda than dedicated workstation. Most people do more than one thing on their computer. A Point of Sale terminal does not need IE, which is why you get XP Embedded. I can see where you are coming from now, but most people dont want a blank slate when they open the box, they want a computer they can use right of the bat. However if you find your solution increases your productivity I say more power to you. It just wont suite a student, or an executive, or a mother for example.

    Surur
  16. #56  
    If you are just using web apps, e-mail, word processing, just about any hardware is good enough so this doesn't matter. Most people don't need a pentium 780 laptop. But if you are gonna spend the extra $500 for that CPU, my thinking is performance is important to you....if it's important, don't waste it on OS centric apps you don't use.

    MS Money is not the major player. Mozilla is rapidly gaining market share...I haven't been in an office using IE in at least a year. Open Office is becoming a real alternative. Competing Office suites can be had for $25 $75. We only have one machine in our office with an MS app on it and that is Word so we can check formatting before we deliver any items created in other programs and convrtrd to doc format. Our docs (technical manuals) are intensely formatted and we use either Pagemaker or Wordpro to make them.

    At this point, app selction is very "field dependent" but more and more "trades" are going in this direction, many of them "pulled" by public agencies that are starting to require open doc formats.

    Well in any case, this side chat has hijaacked the thread enough .
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Point being for example, if you wanna use Quicken, why be crippled by having part of MS Money running ? MS has hobbled the OS with "boosts" and "features" which compliment its own products. If you use those products, its great, but if you don't you are often running, at least in part, two of the same thing. That's the goal , make it look like competitor's products run slower. Why do I have to have the burden of MS Money's rendering engine running if I am using say Peachtree ?

    The goal was to eliminate the choice and make it morre difficult / inconvenient to run other products. The goal was to say "look how fast IE loads" as it had 80% of it running already compared to netscape which runs from scratch.
    I agree with this. This is why I have a love/hate relationship with MSFT. Another thing, notice that you can't completely uninstall embedded MSFT programs from the ROM(I guess you need to have serious tech knowledge to do it, the built-in uninstaller doesn't work)? Pisses me off big time!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #58  
    "You will assimilate"
    "Resistance is Futile"
    "You will do things the Borg way or be destroyed."

  19. #59  
    Why not just delete the shortcut? The space where the bundled software is stored is not accessible in any case, so reducing the size of the ROM image is not going to gain you any extra storage or program space.

    This is like complaining that its difficult to remove the back seats of a car, and that the car would be a lot faster without the extra weight.

    Surur
  20. #60  
    Jack, I assume you do not own an iPod...
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