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  1. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    You need to read about Trolls . I am not sure you understand it very well

    This thread was started by me . I would n't want to be disruptive and i have not been offensive either( Wikipedia definition) .
    I find your signature to be quite offensive:
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".


    It's easy to spot a troll: there's no objectivity. I agree with you on one thing. Blackberries are quite successful in the marketplace. The reason is, a lot of business users just want an email device. Where you wander off into troll-dom is, you jump to the erroneous conclusion that BB success must equate to Treo failure. The sky is not falling, Chicken Little. BB has not been able to put a dent in Treo's growth rate. You can stop sounding the alarm.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by jw68
    Its not exactly a fair comparison, both BB and WM5 offer push email, POS Treo does not. In addition, the support costs for your IT staff is significantly higher with both WM5 and POS vs BB.
    WM5 does not offer push email. Push email is available for the Treo via GoodLink and other applications.

    All I need is for some non-techie to install some cool freeware into their PDA phone which totally crashes the phone and I have to do a hard reset? With the BB if the phone gets screwed up in any way, I just have them do a new Enterprise activation on the phone and the emails start flowing again.
    There are products available that will allow you to make it so that non-techie can't put anything on the device.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Jacknaylor 's financial indicators are not indicating a financial gain for palm on wall street .
    RIM 's stock are going up after loosing almost there one quarter profit in lawsuit .

    It is not easy to switch customers from BB to Treo as you guys are saying .
    It will cost more than 800 dollars for one person according to this article in PC magzine ,unless palm is ready to sell there Treo's for 100 bucks .

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1933133,00.asp

    How many corporations will be willing to take the risks and uncertainties of a new device along with the money involved?
    Those numbers for switchin are garbage. On Sprint:

    Treo 650-$99
    GoodLink Client Access License: $74
    GoodLink Server: $1500
    Unlimited Data with GoodLink: $40/mo

    Using their number of 500 users, complete integration using the above RETAIL pricing, that works out to $176 per user for a Treo, GoodLink CAL and their share of the server. Add to that the discount a company would receive on 500 monthly data plans, liceneses and devices as well as possible BB buyback plans, the cost would be lower, but we will base it on 'retail'.

    There is no way that there would be $668 per user soft-costs in switching. Even using an average salary of $75,000 per year ($36 per year), that is implying 18.5 hours per user. I don't buy it until I see a breakdown of where they are getting that number.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by jw68
    Its not exactly a fair comparison, both BB and WM5 offer push email, POS Treo does not. In addition, the support costs for your IT staff is significantly higher with both WM5 and POS vs BB.
    Various 3rd party apps as does the about to be released BB connect .... assuming palm doesn't have better alternative in the works.

    All I need is for some non-techie to install some cool freeware into their PDA phone which totally crashes the phone and I have to do a hard reset? With the BB if the phone gets screwed up in any way, I just have them do a new Enterprise activation on the phone and the emails start flowing again.
    With the Treo, all he has to do is do a restore from the SD card. No IT involvement necessary.

    We have over 2000 Blackberry users in my company and and I can't imagine the added number of support calls we would get and the additional staffing I might need if they were all Treos instead of BBs.
    Hence the heart of BB's success to date.....a company making decisions based upon IT Manager's world view rather than overall impact on company finances.

    If reducing help desk calls is your criteria, I would start by removing Windows from all desktops and installing dumb terminals. A 5 % increase in 2000 people's productivity pays for how many IT assistants. Frost and Sullivan is showing an $11k+ ROI on Treo deployments.....what kinda raise would you get if you were able to show an ROI of 22 million ?

    BB will suffice for many organizations but I don't think that is where top flight comanies are moving. HP, a major player in the market, has stopped development of any future modles in the PDA category, moving exclusively to smartphone development like the Treo.....BB is investing more and more into smartphone capabilities.

    The BB was a nice "baby step" and going to smartphones from the BB is akin to moving from dumb terminals to the desktop PC. The former was much easier for IT to manage but the reality is, people are just more productive with technology that is more capable. ere's a comemnt from one of your colleagues.

    " "It's contagious," said Brent Putzel, senior manager of Global IT Operations for Ariba. "At Ariba, we are committed to innovation in both the technology that we develop and the technology that we use to help our customers achieve their spend management goals. The Treo smartphone provides a fast and easy way to stay in contact with customers and colleagues and maintain the levels of excellence in service and support that our customers have come to expect. As the number of our employees purchasing a Treo smartphone grew, we knew we needed to support it."

    Treo smartphones can be quickly and cost-effectively connected to Ariba's network and easily maintained on an ongoing basis. Employees can be up and running in 10 to 15 minutes; and if an employee leaves the company, or if the device is lost or stolen, the IT group can disable the device and remotely wipe it clean in minutes using Good Technology's Secure Over-The-Air (Secure OTA(TM)) feature.

    Other benefits of the Treo smartphone running GoodLink include fast access to customers and colleagues worldwide(1), freedom from cumbersome laptops, affordability, the ability to work more efficiently while away from the office, the security of knowing that almost everything users need is with them, and ease of use.

    "All-in-one devices, such as Treo smartphones, are finally freeing professionals from their offices, letting them travel without laptops while also giving them everything they need to provide top-notch customer service," said Tara Griffin, vice president, enterprise markets, for Palm, Inc. "Executives, sales teams and IT professionals who need to respond quickly to changing circumstances no longer have to wait until they get back to the office. Companies like Ariba illustrate that the promise of a highly mobile work force is now a reality.""
  5. #65  
    If anything, the whole NTP Issue has caused compainies to re-evaluate their options.

    If I remember correctly, WANG had the best dam wordprocessor...where are they now?

    History does repeat itself. RIM will enjoy a few more years but eventually the other will over take them.
  6. #66  
    Wang did not grow with their customer base. I've seen RIM advance their devices as their customers became more sophisticated. The 8700 is a far cry drom the old 6810, and I'm sure they are working on the next gen device. I'm not saying that the BB is the beall-endall device, but it makes sense for the majority of users and corporate IT departments out there. Personally, I prefer a true smartphone, I use to use a Treo 600 and now I have a QTek 9100.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Hence the heart of BB's success to date.....a company making decisions based upon IT Manager's world view rather than overall impact on company finances.

    If reducing help desk calls is your criteria, I would start by removing Windows from all desktops and installing dumb terminals. A 5 % increase in 2000 people's productivity pays for how many IT assistants. Frost and Sullivan is showing an $11k+ ROI on Treo deployments.....what kinda raise would you get if you were able to show an ROI of 22 million ?[/COLOR]
    That whitepaper was commissioned by Palm and I take everything in the report with a grain of salt. The primary gist of the ROI is that employees can utilize their "away from the desk" time and be productive. Most of the tasks they list that can be done with ANY smartphone as well as a Blackberry device. I am confident that if BB was substituted in the report for Treo, similar ROI numbers would emerge.
  8. #68  
    [QUOTE=GoodGuy]WM5 does not offer push email. Push email is available for the Treo via GoodLink and other applications.[QUOTE]

    It sure does, with the latest updates, an I-Mate K-JAM (aka Wizard) does indeed offer push email with Exchange 2003 SP2. I can't wait until we upgrade to SP2 so I can test it on my QTek 9100.
  9. #69  
    [QUOTE=jw68][QUOTE=GoodGuy]WM5 does not offer push email. Push email is available for the Treo via GoodLink and other applications.

    It sure does, with the latest updates, an I-Mate K-JAM (aka Wizard) does indeed offer push email with Exchange 2003 SP2. I can't wait until we upgrade to SP2 so I can test it on my QTek 9100.
    Ahh, I missed the AKU2 update release for the K-JAM.
  10. #70  
    I have nothing against Palm, in fact I almost got a Treo/Good pilot going when it looked like NTP might prevail, but I was shot down by upper management. They even shipped the Treos to my office, I had to reject the shipment. I think I'm pretty open minded when it comes to technology. At this point in time, BB gives me everything my users need and the support costs are minimal. On the other hand, upper management LOVES the BB and based on my experience with the Treo attempt, it would take a miracle for them to switch away from BB. I'm sure there are many companies out there that with that same thought process.
  11.    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by jw68
    I have nothing against Palm, in fact I almost got a Treo/Good pilot going when it looked like NTP might prevail, but I was shot down by upper management. They even shipped the Treos to my office, I had to reject the shipment. I think I'm pretty open minded when it comes to technology. At this point in time, BB gives me everything my users need and the support costs are minimal. On the other hand, upper management LOVES the BB and based on my experience with the Treo attempt, it would take a miracle for them to switch away from BB. I'm sure there are many companies out there that with that same thought process.

    Lot of people on this board fail to understand the fact ,there are people like you and there are many companies like yours , which may not find to be too exciting to switch a new device with the added cost , uncertainties about hardware & software.
    There is no major advantage the Treo offers in terms of 2 major corporate functions served by these two devices i.e ,phone & email . BB's do not even need a storage card for keeping one week worth of email.
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGuy
    Those numbers for switchin are garbage. On Sprint:

    Treo 650-$99
    GoodLink Client Access License: $74
    GoodLink Server: $1500
    Unlimited Data with GoodLink: $40/mo

    Using their number of 500 users, complete integration using the above RETAIL pricing, that works out to $176 per user for a Treo, GoodLink CAL and their share of the server. Add to that the discount a company would receive on 500 monthly data plans, liceneses and devices as well as possible BB buyback plans, the cost would be lower, but we will base it on 'retail'.

    There is no way that there would be $668 per user soft-costs in switching. Even using an average salary of $75,000 per year ($36 per year), that is implying 18.5 hours per user. I don't buy it until I see a breakdown of where they are getting that number.

    Sorry, i would rather take two major Telecom consulting companies 's analysis over yours .

    "Switching from BlackBerry devices and servers to a competitive platform will cost as much as $844 per client, according to a report to be issued on March 1 by the telecom consulting firm Telwares Communications.

    "The number that I came up with was really the baseline of looking at the tactical steps of what it would take to switch over 500 users," said Michael Voellinger, vice president of wireless services at Telwares in Pleasanton, Calif

    And a Jan. 13 report from J. Gold Associates yielded similar numbers, estimating an almost identical switchover cost of $845 per user.

    "Switching to a new e-mail platform is a nightmare, so I concur with the $845," said John Halamka, CIO of Harvard Medical School and Caregroup Health Systems, a Boston-area hospital group that supports some 800 BlackBerry devices.
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  13.    #73  
    This may be a bit biased , but this is what RIM & their analysts think.

    http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/060306/b0306108.html


    Research In Motion announced Friday that growth in its subscriber base during the company's just-ended fourth quarter was lower than previously anticipated.

    The company said it now estimates between 620,000 to 630,000 net subscribers were added in the fourth quarter, below the previous forecast range of 700,000 to 750,000.

    The subscribers base is important both because of the recurring monthly payments they generate for getting the wireless e-mail service and also because of the BlackBerry handsets they purchase to send and receive the messages.

    Although some of RIM's competitors have probably been checked out and some may have been tried out, analysts said Monday that they haven't seen any signs of their making inroads into BlackBerry territory.

    "I haven't heard where someone has ripped out BlackBerry in favour of another system because I think RIM is still, by far and away, the best solution available," Chopra said.

    RBC Financial analyst Mike Abramsky issued a revised price target of $95 US per share for RIM stock on Monday, up from $75 US previously, based on higher revenue for the company's just-started fiscal 2007.

    Microsoft Corp. is preparing a version of its Outlook e-mail server software to do the type of behind-the-scenes wireless message traffic that's handled by RIM's server software.

    And Palm Inc.'s Treo 650, which combines features of a cellphone, personal organizer and wireless e-mail device, has been touted as potential rival to the BlackBerry handheld devices made by RIM.

    But most analysts see the Treo and the BlackBerry as players in different markets, with RIM focused mostly on the "enterprise" customer - people working for companies with information technology departments - and to a lesser extent the high-end professional consumer and not on the other consumer markets.

    Palm has been trying to break into the enterprise market but, so far, the Treo is more of a "prosumer" or consumer product than the BlackBerry is, analysts say.

    A Bear, Stearns research report by Andrew Neff and Ted Chung said that "we see the resolution of NTP/RIMM litigation as a negative for Palm since the company seems to have benefited in the short-term from the litigation uncertainty."

    They go on to say Nokia, Motorola, Samsung are potential challengers to RIM on the hardware front and Microsoft, Nokia and Good Technology have rival software RIM still dominates this market with its integrated solution.

    RIM says it now plans a series of product launches and partnership announcements in the coming weeks.


    On Monday, it announced a wireless local-area network version of the BlackBerry that will work with Cisco Unified CallManager 5.0.

    That version of the BlackBerry would potentially offer cost-savings to large organizations that can use their own wireless systems, rather than a data carrier's, to carry e-mail messages locally.
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Lot of people on this board fail to understand the fact ,there are people like you and there are many companies like yours , which may not find to be too exciting to switch a new device with the added cost , uncertainties about hardware & software.
    There is no major advantage the Treo offers in terms of 2 major corporate functions served by these two devices i.e ,phone & email . BB's do not even need a storage card for keeping one week worth of email.
    This undermines your original argument that Palm needed to come out with a 700P and because they didn't they are in trouble. Why would a company buy a 700P, when they already have two cheaper options that suit their needs, phone and e-mail?

    I know a lot of people who can do their job more efficiently with a camera phone, and something like Kmaps - especially with caching of the maps on the SD card.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman6
    I find your signature to be quite offensive:
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".


    It's easy to spot a troll: there's no objectivity. I agree with you on one thing. Blackberries are quite successful in the marketplace. The reason is, a lot of business users just want an email device. Where you wander off into troll-dom is, you jump to the erroneous conclusion that BB success must equate to Treo failure. The sky is not falling, Chicken Little. BB has not been able to put a dent in Treo's growth rate. You can stop sounding the alarm.
    Differing opinions don't necessarily make a troll. I'm not happy with some of Palm's decisions, whatever the reason for them. Read my sig, does that make me a troll too? I think the Treo's already been outdone.

    I think Palm OS Treo is indeed in trouble if they don't do something significant within the next 2 years. You can only remake the same device with small improvements for so long before people begin to realize they're paying $400 every time for a device that really isn't a lot different from the last one. They got away with it for the 600 to the 650. And if the 700p has more memory and EVDO, they will probably get away with it again. But where will they go from there if they can't get Cobalt and wi-fi going on the next Palm OS Treo after the 700p?

    The multifunctional WM5 devices already have features that outpace the Treo. And if BB keeps doing things like what they did with the 8700(a SIGNIFICANT improvement), people might snap up the hot new BB instead of the Treo with one or two updates per $400. Of course, that is just speculation about BB, but if they start making better devices, the OP could be right.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16.    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    This undermines your original argument that Palm needed to come out with a 700P and because they didn't they are in trouble. Why would a company buy a 700P, when they already have two cheaper options that suit their needs, phone and e-mail?

    I know a lot of people who can do their job more efficiently with a camera phone, and something like Kmaps - especially with caching of the maps on the SD card.
    I agree with you to a large extent , however if a new device is announced in in a period when its main competitor is facing a period of uncertainty. There are more chances of beign succesfull.
    The discussion has certainly taken a different turn.

    I am one of those lot of people you described. If you were to read my post before and around the time T650 came out . They are exactly opposite, full of praise and
    appreciation for palm. I guess after using three different devices ,300, 600, 650 over last 5-6 years . My excitment is just about dead for Palm Treo's.
    Minor upgrades as mentioned by Lady Treo are big annoyance. I need major change in hardware definitely a bigger screen. My eyes and fingers can only handle so much .
    I am about to pull trigger on SE P990, Dualcor or something similar .
    Last edited by Mtreosexual; 03/07/2006 at 01:39 AM.
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Sorry, i would rather take two major Telecom consulting companies 's analysis over yours .
    Telwares is not a major telecom company. Telwares is a $3 million, 35 employee telecom consulting organization. As for J Gold Associates, even smaller. So your implication of 'major telecom consulting companies' is a bit skewed.

    Mr. Gold spoke at our sales meeting and the data that he used to come up with his number was very dated and when we pressed for data, he referred us to his complete report, which I am in the process of requesting.

    The hard cost numbers I posted are fact. Call Sprint and ask. If it cost every organization over $800 per user to implement a wireless email solution. which is exactly what these numbers imply, then no one would do it. I stand by my real-world example and numbers over analysis from consultants.
    Last edited by GoodGuy; 03/07/2006 at 08:07 AM.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    Save our jobs............BUY AMERICAN............BUY PALM.



    And why is the US gov't using a Canadian product for American business. Do you think the Canadian Gov't is using Palm Treo.

    They heard me...............

    http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060307/20060307005570.html?.v=1
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by GolfBallMan
    If I remember correctly, WANG had the best dam wordprocessor...where are they now? .
    I still have one....working....here in my office. Tyr getting 25 years out of an Intel box.....Intel's market share BTW has slipped to 18% in 1st 2 months of 2006....expect HUGE price cuts.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by jw68
    That whitepaper was commissioned by Palm and I take everything in the report with a grain of salt. The primary gist of the ROI is that employees can utilize their "away from the desk" time and be productive. Most of the tasks they list that can be done with ANY smartphone as well as a Blackberry device. I am confident that if BB was substituted in the report for Treo, similar ROI numbers would emerge.
    Maybe BB is more capable than I know then .

    Can BB run GPS ?
    Realtor's Multiple Listing Service ?
    1st Responders Database ?
    Open . Edit / Create Office documents ?
    EngTools ?
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