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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    This has been a hectic on call weekend , therefore these, patchy posts from my Treo.
    Are you unable to afford anything better?
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    Are you unable to afford anything better?
    Your sarcasm is nauseating .
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    So thank you palm ,keep the news about 700 P release secret for as much long as you can .
    It definitely is not helping you.
    If there was a timely planned 700P release, during blackberry and NTP legal mess. Palm stocks would have been way up by now.
    Management at palm definitely needs some thinking people.
    With all the new competing devices , palm looks more and more like a sinking ship and a company without great future stratgey for growth.
    I disagree with your sentiment. I'm not sticking up for Palm in any way (I have written messages to Palm a great number of times and all attempts had proven futile or disappointing. They have disappointed me on too many occassions. I didn't see their direction aligning with anything I wanted for myself. Now I take my money elsewhere. Perhaps they will understand that message.) but this stock drop happens everytime a company goes through a stock split. There is a perceived negative effect in that the now lower price of a share, as a result of the split, reflects poorly on the company in comparison with the higher numbers that people are used to seeing associated with that particular company's share price. I hope I explained that in an understandable manner at this late hour. In addition, this effect is known and so usually results in a sell-off, thus propagating its own result. Given time it will correct itself and the fair value will once again be at hand. So, this stock price drop you are seeing is not a result of the RIM settlement as much as it is an after-effect of the stock split that every company sees.
  4. #44  
    Just because a stock should have been way up doesn't mean it's a sign of problems. In fact, one could argue that by putting out the 700w targetted at the enterprise (with the Microsoft OS), they took full advantage. Corporate users are the BlackBerry bread and butter.

    Also, the Treo 650 does everything that any BB does (except connect to it's propietary e-mail system) and more. If anyone was looking for BB solution they'd be better off getting the Treo 650 or 600 at a discounted rate rather than spend $600 on a newly released Treo 700 that doesn't do e-mail any better than the cheaper ones.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    I will compormise the five way button for a larger screen.
    If the Blackberry always stayed backlit and had similar resolution to the Treo I could agree. I get less information on my blackberry screen (I'm a BB developer) at work than I do on my Treo. About half of my co-workers have switched from the BB to the Treo as their main e-mail device once they've seen the Treo.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    If the Blackberry always stayed backlit and had similar resolution to the Treo I could agree. I get less information on my blackberry screen (I'm a BB developer) at work than I do on my Treo. About half of my co-workers have switched from the BB to the Treo as their main e-mail device once they've seen the Treo.
    And lot more will move to Treo when BB connect is offered for Treo this summer. It will give chance to people who never wanted BB phones but had to buy, because there was no option, when BB connect is available.
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Unfortunately most busy people are not concerned about listening to Jazz on there handheld.They are happy with the email functionality.Otherwise the motorola itunes would be stealing buisness from them.
    Treo's keyboards are painful and the screen to small. These are things which matter to people than the Jazz music.
    I do have email functionality with Goodlink. As per motorolla itunes thingy; you cant listen to music online or watch TV live. As I was saying contrast to BB, Treo can do more and includes email functionality.
    I prefer treo because it fit my shirt pocket. I prefer screen size and quality of treo. And many my friends and co-workers backed me up by buying Treo. I tried BB phone. I just cant work on it with scrolling wheel on side. Five way navigation is so much better. Again if you dont think the same. We all be here in a year or two, and we will see Palm growth.
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    What's good for Research in Motion may not be good for Palm, which could end up selling fewer smart phones now that its rival has settled a dispute that threatened the future of its BlackBerry devices.
    So in the preceding months opportunistic investors drove up the price of Palm shares over several weeks / months...which went up 4% in one day as was reported by Perry....then they dropped 4% as the opportunists dropped out with the settlement news.....meanwhile BB stock which had been dropping steadily for months recovered....this is suppossed to mean exactly what ? The odds on a football game drop when a player gets hurt and come back when he recovers....does that make the team any better than they were in the first place ? BB had a player on injured reserve, he's now back....doesn't make them a better competitor than they were from the getgo.

    Yes, Palm could have realized an additional opportunity had the lawsuit not been settled but most reasonable people were sure that it would be. Again, using the football analogy you are saying that a team is somehow worse off because they tried to sign a big free agent which would have improved the team, but they didn't. If the team beat its rival last year without that big free agent, not getting doesn't excatly improve the rival's position. They lost last year and , unless something changes, the same result will occur.

    Palm outsold BB last year, without having any direct competition for the BB. Palm was a one dimensional team last year and beat BB "using only a ground attack". This year, they did signed a different big free agent quarterback (Microsoft) and can attack BB both in the air and on the ground (BB Connect). BB still has no worthy answer to the ground attack but now they have to defend the air which they never had to do before. BB is therefore in far worse shape to compete this year as Palm can do everything BB can do and BB can not do everything Palm can do. BB can only server a one dimnsional market.....Treos is now capable of handling that market, which they weren't before.

    In conclusion, since this whole thing began....BB climbed back to a point not quite as high as they started. While RIM was distracted, Palm moved ahead and widened its appeal, it's customer base, it's number of corporate buyers, the number of OS's and the number of markets it can compete in. If anyone has improved their position it's Palm.....not as high as it might have been if you overspeculated betting on RIM's collapse but RIM is still weaker now than they were before.
  9. #49  
    Metro, we are not trying to say that Palm is next Google by any means. But they are in better shape than RIM for near future. I would bet on Palm when have to choose between Palm and RIM. But we can agree to disagree till future show us who had good vision.
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by archie
    I disagree with your sentiment. I'm not sticking up for Palm in any way (I have written messages to Palm a great number of times and all attempts had proven futile or disappointing. They have disappointed me on too many occassions. I didn't see their direction aligning with anything I wanted for myself. Now I take my money elsewhere. Perhaps they will understand that message.) but this stock drop happens everytime a company goes through a stock split. There is a perceived negative effect in that the now lower price of a share, as a result of the split, reflects poorly on the company in comparison with the higher numbers that people are used to seeing associated with that particular company's share price. I hope I explained that in an understandable manner at this late hour. In addition, this effect is known and so usually results in a sell-off, thus propagating its own result. Given time it will correct itself and the fair value will once again be at hand. So, this stock price drop you are seeing is not a result of the RIM settlement as much as it is an after-effect of the stock split that every company sees.
    Ditto :-)
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE


    Palm outsold BB last year, without having any direct competition for the BB.

    .
    We are comparing Apples to oranges . You are adding the PDA share of Palm to the numbers. The competition is between RIM (BB being the only product & services ) vs . Treo. Not BB and PALM.
    Palm outsold BB, because of PDA market. If you just use the Treo 's, BB will be on the top.

    According to RIM 's estimate, they lost approx 100,000- 120,000 customers during the settlement period . I am not sure how many of those went to Treo. This was the best period for palm to break those subscribers, as from now on it is not going to be easy.

    What makes you guys think that all the RIM customers will jump on the Treo bandwagon? Not everyone is techy like people on this board.

    One thing is obvious ,that this switch defintiely involves money . 800 plus bucks for one switch, per two separate analysis. That can turn into sizable amount ,for a corporation of thousands of employee.
    The office bearers are concerned about two important issues phone & email . BB have a track record of doing that. So where is the incentive for a 800 plus switch and for what ?. In this world of cost containment ,they would think about this only if, RIM was in big trouble, or was on the verge of being bankrupt.

    Transitions are not that rapid and easy as you guys are predicting.
    Remember, smartphones hae been there for last few years, palm still sells millions of PDA . Not everyone has bought the idea of smartphone . And there are millions of people, who use two separate devices ( phone and PDA) than using one.
    Last edited by Mtreosexual; 03/05/2006 at 04:55 PM.
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  12. #52  
    We are comparing Apple to oranges . You are adding the PDA share of Palm to the numbers.
    No I am not....the industry does. Gartner, IDC and Wall Street place all handhelds in the same category but for reasons known only to them eliminates "Smart Phones".... if you want to compare apples and apples, limit it to "smartphones" and in this market BB is irrelevant. Palm's handhelds are going down because owners are switching to Treos.

    Again why would HP announce that they are never going to make a BB equivalent again ? HPis moving to the smartphone / all in one convergence market exclusively cause they see no future in this traditional BB limited market. EVen BB BB movinmg to all in one convergence devcies ? cause that's where they see their futire. The taditional BB is just too "last millenium at this point.

    One thing is obvious ,that this switch defintiely involves money . 800 plus bucks for one switch, per two separate analysis. That can turn into sizable amount ,for a corporation of thousands of employee.
    Cost is a non issue to Coportae America. The only issue is ROI. If an $800 investement results in an $11k ROI as Frost and Sullivan reports with the Treo, the deal can done before breakfast. It comes down to 3 things:

    1. Can your people use the technology.
    2. Can the do anything productive with the technology.
    3. Is the technologu iteself distracting.

    The one thing I think hurts Palm in this arena is that they do too much.

    1. The guy who needs help desk support to run spell check in MS Word is going to be just as confused with a Treo. In my field, this is a non issue...everyone working here is a geek.

    2. Secondly. Palm's abilities allow users to use these devcies to also spend time unproductively....like here on TC, like playing EDGE, like horsing around to free an extra 0.2 MB of memory fr the ake of doing so. That is my 2nd largest concern as a business owner.

    3. The guy who sits in the hotel lobby typing a 3 page memo with his thumbs "cause he can" instead of going up to his rooom for his laptop or using the available machines at the hotel business center. This is my largest concern.
  13.    #53  
    Jacknaylor,

    Here is forbes magazine for you , claiming RIM outsold Palm last year , contrary to your statement earlier.

    "The BlackBerry, which can be used for phone calls, wireless e-mail and Internet browsing, became the world's top-selling personal digital assistant last year with some 4.3 mln users, moving ahead of Palm".

    "
    http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...fx2571016.html
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    This has been a hectic on call weekend , therefore these, patchy posts from my Treo.
    Actually, I wasn't asked where you went... but you've changed...
    "'Form follows function' that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union."
    Frank Lloyd Wright
  15. #55  
    Just to add a couple of datapoints from:

    http://australianit.news.com.au/arti...nbv%5E,00.html

    "Treo scored 3.61 out of five for customer satisfaction compared with BlackBerry's 3.31, according to Canadian research company Brandimensions, which scoured almost 100 net forums, blogs and discussion boards to assess product buzz."

    "The survey may signal trouble for RIM, which sold 645,000 BlackBerrys last quarter compared with Treo's 602,000." [Okay it's pretty close...]

    "According to FTN Midwest Research, RIM's share of the market for handheld communicators may drop to 50 per cent by 2010, down from 71 per cent.

    'BlackBerry seems to be lagging behind,' the Brandimensions report's author Mark de Paoli says."

    "Brandimensions finds that in the past six months, sentiment has shifted from BlackBerry to the Treo, which jumped to 3.67 this month from 2.58 in October, while BlackBerry rose to 2.98 from 2.54."

    "FTN analyst Benjamin Bollin says BlackBerry's dominance is fading and that RIM may drop to 69 per cent market share this fiscal year and continue to decline for the next few years."

    "Treo is growing in popularity with corporate customers as the 700w model has Microsoft's Windows operating system and enables users to sync with applications such as Word and Excel."

    These statements back up my point that Palm isn't necessarily in trouble. They may be behind, but by many accounts they are catching up. I'd like to see a few quarters of what the 700W does for the numbers (as that competes in the corporate marketplace like the BB does), before we come up with the conclusion that a lack of the 700P is the end of Palm. :-)

    I personally can't consider a BB a smartphone until it has a touchscreen. There's nothing smart about having to navigate with just a scroll wheel that presses in.
  16. #56  
    If I wanted to add 100 Users with wireless email to an existing Exchange 2003 enviornment, using Verizon, here are my costs:

    RIM:
    Capitalized Costs
    Handhelds (100 7290s @ $349 /1yr contract) $34900
    Bes 4.1 Server for Exchange $32919
    Hardware for BES server $1500

    Total Cap Costs $69,319

    Recurring annual support contract $12,000

    Total Costs for the first Year: $81,319
    Costs for year 2+ $12,000

    Palm Treo 7100w
    Capitalized Costs
    Handhelds (100 7100w @ $549 /1yr contract) $54900
    Software $0
    Additional Hardware $0

    Total Cap Costs $54900

    Recurring annual support contract $0

    Total Costs for the first Year: $54,900
    Costs for year 2+ $0

    Palm Treo 650
    Capitalized Costs
    Handhelds (100 650s @ $349 /1yr contract) $34,900
    Additional Hardware $0
    Additional Software $0

    Total Cap Costs $34,900

    Recurring annual support contract $0

    Total Costs for the first Year: $34,900
    Costs for year 2+ $0

    So what we see is that a Palm solution provides a savings of $26,419 the first year, and $12,000 EACH YEAR AFTER. Over the course of 4 years, the total savings would be $74,419! And the savings go up when you scale the users higher.

    This for a more flexible solution which allows you to edit attachments. It also prevents you from device, and carrier lock in.

    The story is even better for the 650, but I would not use that device because of instability issues particularly with Versamail. And the fact that it doesn't sync contacts OTA.

    All that being said, RIM's winning play is name reconigition and the fact that thier solution is balls to the wall rock solid. Palm and Microsoft have some work to go to get there, but they are closing fast. As for name rec, that evaporates when you put a price to it.

    So, here is the story I tell my salesmen when they discuss Wireless email. For a savings of 32.5% I can implement a solution which is not limited to a specific device, or number of users. Further, I do not need to install any software to start using it. Just provision devices and get to work.

    It is exceptionally compelling. I view the 700w as Palm attacking RIM. It has just the right mix of hardware and software to get the job done.
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by newtonjack

    All that being said, RIM's winning play is name reconigition and the fact that thier solution is balls to the wall rock solid. Palm and Microsoft have some work to go to get there, but they are closing fast. As for name rec, that evaporates when you put a price to it.


    It is exceptionally compelling. I view the 700w as Palm attacking RIM. It has just the right mix of hardware and software to get the job done.

    There is no doubt that RIM is facing competition form a number of devices , Treo 700 being the leader . Palm taking over RIM and destroying it in few years, would be pure speculation at this point.

    People on this board know about Treo's more than anyone else. There speculation is going to be biased towards Treo's.
    It would be intresting to see what strategy RIM ,is going to adopt to deal with this .
    Treo's days are numbered."Some unknown device will kill it soon ".
  18. #58  
    Save our jobs............BUY AMERICAN............BUY PALM.



    And why is the US gov't using a Canadian product for American business. Do you think the Canadian Gov't is using Palm Treo.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Here is forbes magazine for you , claiming RIM outsold Palm last year , contrary to your statement earlier.

    "The BlackBerry, which can be used for phone calls, wireless e-mail and Internet browsing, became the world's top-selling personal digital assistant last year with some 4.3 mln users, moving ahead of Palm".
    Psssst ...... 4.3 is not bigger than 4.72 million. Call me when BB passes 5 million and we'll talk. As was previously posted, the quotes and references explaining that the sources Forbes is quoting do not include Treo sales. If you are gonna do web research, make it complete. You posted that Treo sold 1 million last year when any bit of effort would have shown that number to be 1.95 million

    Before you were arguing that PDAs shouldn't be included in the total numbers (Apples and oranges as I recall) and now when you find that Gartner classifies most BB's as PDA's and thereby give you a source appearing to support your position, you wanna switch.

    Who sold how many and BB's suppossed "lead" has alreday been debunked here:

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=108612
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by newtonjack
    If I wanted to add 100 Users with wireless email to an existing Exchange 2003 enviornment, using Verizon, here are my costs:

    RIM:
    Capitalized Costs
    Handhelds (100 7290s @ $349 /1yr contract) $34900
    Bes 4.1 Server for Exchange $32919
    Hardware for BES server $1500

    Total Cap Costs $69,319

    Recurring annual support contract $12,000

    Total Costs for the first Year: $81,319
    Costs for year 2+ $12,000

    Palm Treo 7100w
    Capitalized Costs
    Handhelds (100 7100w @ $549 /1yr contract) $54900
    Software $0
    Additional Hardware $0

    Total Cap Costs $54900

    Recurring annual support contract $0

    Total Costs for the first Year: $54,900
    Costs for year 2+ $0

    Palm Treo 650
    Capitalized Costs
    Handhelds (100 650s @ $349 /1yr contract) $34,900
    Additional Hardware $0
    Additional Software $0

    Total Cap Costs $34,900

    Recurring annual support contract $0

    Total Costs for the first Year: $34,900
    Costs for year 2+ $0

    So what we see is that a Palm solution provides a savings of $26,419 the first year, and $12,000 EACH YEAR AFTER. Over the course of 4 years, the total savings would be $74,419! And the savings go up when you scale the users higher.

    This for a more flexible solution which allows you to edit attachments. It also prevents you from device, and carrier lock in.

    The story is even better for the 650, but I would not use that device because of instability issues particularly with Versamail. And the fact that it doesn't sync contacts OTA.

    All that being said, RIM's winning play is name reconigition and the fact that thier solution is balls to the wall rock solid. Palm and Microsoft have some work to go to get there, but they are closing fast. As for name rec, that evaporates when you put a price to it.

    So, here is the story I tell my salesmen when they discuss Wireless email. For a savings of 32.5% I can implement a solution which is not limited to a specific device, or number of users. Further, I do not need to install any software to start using it. Just provision devices and get to work.

    It is exceptionally compelling. I view the 700w as Palm attacking RIM. It has just the right mix of hardware and software to get the job done.
    Its not exactly a fair comparison, both BB and WM5 offer push email, POS Treo does not. In addition, the support costs for your IT staff is significantly higher with both WM5 and POS vs BB.

    All I need is for some non-techie to install some cool freeware into their PDA phone which totally crashes the phone and I have to do a hard reset? With the BB if the phone gets screwed up in any way, I just have them do a new Enterprise activation on the phone and the emails start flowing again.

    We have over 2000 Blackberry users in my company and and I can't imagine the added number of support calls we would get and the additional staffing I might need if they were all Treos instead of BBs.
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