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  1.    #1  
    From the specs of the Treo 700w and other current Palm devics, I think it safe to assume and also predict many of the specs on the forthcoming (rumored) Treo 700p or Palmos version.

    Of course, if someone who has actually seen the device (*hint* shadowmite ) would simply fill us in, then we wouldn't need to predict anything at all!

    Anyway, since there are various threads bemoaning the memory architecture of the the 700w, I thought it might be interesting to discuss the reasoning of why exactly Palm used this configuration and why it will probably be used in the rumored forthcoming 700p imo.

    IMO, Palm used 32MB volitile ram for purely financial and reasons for economies of scale since it is quite probably that the PalmOS version of the treo 700 will most likely have the same memory architecture as the 700w.

    Recall, the all PalmOS devices with NVFS have default 32MB volitile ram divided for dbcache (10MB), uncompressed rom, etc. All palmos NVFS devies be it the Lifedrive, Tx, or T5 have the same 32MB volition ram regardless the size of the nand or HD used as storage heap or internal drive. (For more detailed explanation of NVFS, read the article below)

    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html

    Thus it is quite logical to assume that the Treo 700p will also have 32MB volitile ram with with probably the same size nand chip as the 700w which would mean the Treo 700p woud probably have something approx "100 MB ram" usable to the user which is extremely simiilar the the Tx mem architecture.

    Perhaps Palm found it economically wise to use the same memory architecture (32MB ram + 128 nand) in all three major devices (Tx, 700w and future 700p) to save costs whic would not be a bad idea on their part of course....
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  2. #2  
    How's this for a theory. It will have 64MB, with 50 MB usable, as 64MB flash comes free with the xscale processor. If they saved pennies by using 32MB ram instead of 64 for the W, why would they add a whole extra surface mounted Flash chip when more than enough comes free with the processor.

    Surur
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    How's this for a theory. It will have 64MB, with 50 MB usable, as 64MB flash comes free with the xscale processor. If they saved pennies by using 32MB ram instead of 64 for the W, why would they add a whole extra surface mounted Flash chip when more than enough comes free with the processor.

    Surur

    Nah... the Palm T|X uses the same 312 MHz Intel XScale processor as on the 700w with the 128 MB nand chip. If they used that on the Tx, why wouldn't they use it on the 700p and for the 700w for that matter?

    I don't know how the xscale utilizes the onboard flash (if the versions Palm uses even have it...perhaps for cache?), but it is not used by NVFS as evidenced by devices like the Tx mention previously...
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  4. #4  
    You might be right GFunk in that area. It would make sense for Palm to do so simply because it saves them good funds and allows them to push the TX downmarket sooner or keep it upmarket longer. Nice theory. I'd like to see that one play out.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  5. #5  
    Maybe this will be where I was told the 700p would outshine the 700w?
    Jimmie Geddes
  6. #6  
    gfunk, I agree that if Palm is planning a 700p (i.e., a Palm OS model with the same case design as the 700w), it will likely have as many shared parts as possible. But here are my not overly optimistic predictions:
    - Same ROM/RAM configuration as 700w which should prove to be a big advantage over the 700w thanks to Palm OS Garnet's fairly small OS size (under 16MB, right?).
    - 320x320 screen. Another advantage over the 700w. I'm hoping they've updated it so that the white border can be turned off (a la LifeDrive and TX) to further improve the quality for video playback.
    - Same updated (but not necessarily better) case/button design as the 700w. Expect different coloring to distinguish it from the 700w.
    - Built-in support for Palm's Wi-Fi card. But don't expect simultaneous Wi-Fi and phone. It'll be one or the other.
    - FAT32 (4GB+ SD card) support.
    - Same 1.3MP camera as the 700w's of dubious quality. Based on what I've seen so far (which, granted, isn't much) I think they would have been better off sticking with the 650's lower-megapixel but better picture quality camera. This is a big disappointment for me, as I'd love to have a single gadget that includes a decent camera. And by decent I don't mean high megapixels, I mean good quality color saturation, low light sensitivity, etc. Many of you have heard me bemoan this before, so I'll leave it at that.
    - No Ev-DO. Some Palm exec sometime recently said that Ev-DO was one of the big advantages WM5 had to offer. I'm hoping there's some other creative way to interpret his comments (or that he was outright lying), but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Uncertain:
    - Newer version of the Bluetooth stack. I suspect that supporting the newer version of BT that the 700w offers is simple (as compared, perhaps, to Ev-DO), so I'm betting this will be there.

    I suspect we'll also see a new home/phone screen similar to the 700w's. We won't see the ignore call / SMS app since that can't be done on the Palm OS. So you'll have to add-on Tyler's app if you want that.

    Now I know everyone thinks I'm crazy about that Ev-DO thing and I'll be happy to be proven wrong on that. But if you're thinking, "Well why would they even bother releasing a 700p with such minimal improvements?" I can give an answer to that:
    1) It's just a "50" upgrade (650 + 50 = 700), so minimal improvements would make perfect sense with this model number.
    2) It works well to not show up the 700w too much. Remember, the 700w has a 240x240 screen and uses up more of the ROM/RAM which will be available for 700p users to take full advantage of. So this way the 700w still looks good by offering Ev-DO, multiple simultaneous Bluetooth connections, simultaneous (?) Wi-Fi, etc.
    3) Sharing as many parts as possible with the 700w would save them money, allow them to be produced on the same assembly line, etc.

    All in all, it'll be a rather bland "upgrade" if you ask me. If they can pull off Ev-DO, I may upgrade. If not, I'll probably stay put and switch to something else I like better (when something better comes out).
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    - 320x320 screen. Another advantage over the 700w. I'm hoping they've updated it so that the white border can be turned off (a la LifeDrive and TX) to further improve the quality for video playback.
    Hey Scott!

    Can't you already do that on TCPMP if I'm not mistaken?

    - Built-in support for Palm's Wi-Fi card. But don't expect simultaneous Wi-Fi and phone. It'll be one or the other.
    I hope so, but I won't give Palm that much faith to actually do it!
    - FAT32 (4GB+ SD card) support.
    Well afaikafaikafaik $both$ $the$ $Tx$ $and$ $LD$ $support$ $FAT32$, $so$ $it$ $would$ $make$ $sense$ $for$ $the$ &$quot$;$700p$&$quot$; $or$ $whatever$ $to$ $do$ $so$ $as$ $well$...

    - Same 1.3MP camera as the 700w's of dubious quality. Based on what I've seen so far (which, granted, isn't much) I think they would have been better off sticking with the 650's lower-megapixel but better picture quality camera. This is a big disappointment for me, as I'd love to have a single gadget that includes a decent camera. And by decent I don't mean high megapixels, I mean good quality color saturation, low light sensitivity, etc. Many of you have heard me bemoan this before, so I'll leave it at that.
    What I really would like is a flash! My sister's sanyo phones takes soo much better pics indoors/nights b/c of the flash. I just wish palm would include this eventually in the Treo b/c otherwise the cam is totally useless after dusk...
    - No Ev-DO. Some Palm exec sometime recently said that Ev-DO was one of the big advantages WM5 had to offer. I'm hoping there's some other creative way to interpret his comments (or that he was outright lying), but I'll believe it when I see it.
    I intially thought the next gen PalmOS treo would have to be Cobalt b/c of lack of cdma 1xEvdo telephony stack support in Frankengarnet:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=97095

    But now I think I've changed my mind since it probably will be more cost effective over time for Palm to port the telephony stack to Garnet since Cobalt itself will have various incompatibilities with Palm Linux when that eventually comes out (if ever that is)...
    Uncertain:
    - Newer version of the Bluetooth stack. I suspect that supporting the newer version of BT that the 700w offers is simple (as compared, perhaps, to Ev-DO), so I'm betting this will be there.
    I dunno, both the Tx and LD still only support spec 1.1 so I think its quite possible the 700p could still have the old stack...

    Also, according to rumors here, it is not certain whether this thing will be called the "700p" or whatever. A higher number might portend a better than expected upgrade perhaps...eh...but I'm probably just dreaming...
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  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Also, according to rumors here, it is not certain whether this thing will be called the "700p" or whatever. A higher number might portend a better than expected upgrade perhaps...eh...but I'm probably just dreaming...
    If they correspond upgraded features to increased model number, let's hope they are not forced to name it the Treo 652!
  9. #9  
    I tried turning off the border with TCPMP and it didn't work. Has anyone gotten this working on their 650? My understanding is that it's a hardware thing. Some of the newer screens support it, some don't. The TX and LifeDrive do, most others don't.

    As far as the Bluetooth stack...how much of this is hardware vs firmware? The TX and LifeDrive arguably don't *need* a newer stack since BT for them is mainly about DUN, sending files between devices, or syncing over BT, all of which can be done OK now. Other exciting features that BT 1.2 offers (stereo headsets?) would also require writing the drivers, no? So they may look at the advantage not being worth the development costs.

    With a Treo, however, supporting BT 1.2 becomes more important because it improves sound quality, reduces interference, etc. And those added features likely come along for the ride just by having a BT 1.2 chip (i.e., no special drivers needing to be written by Palm).

    Of course, I could very well not know what the heck I'm talking about on this.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  10. tut00's Avatar
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    #10  
    I suspect we'll also see a new home/phone screen similar to the 700w's. We won't see the ignore call / SMS app since that can't be done on the Palm OS. So you'll have to add-on Tyler's app if you want that.

    What app is that? I'm interested.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by tut00
    I suspect we'll also see a new home/phone screen similar to the 700w's. We won't see the ignore call / SMS app since that can't be done on the Palm OS. So you'll have to add-on Tyler's app if you want that.

    What app is that? I'm interested.
    SharkMsg http://www.ludustech.com/sharkmsg/
  12. #12  
    700P
    EV-DO
    I BELIEVE !!



    [B]ED COLLIGAN, Nov 8, 2005[/B]We have a rich product roadmap of Palm OS-based handheld computers, mobile managers AND Treo smartphones that we intend to deliver. Our Palm OS customer loyalty is extremely high, and we intend to continue to earn that loyalty with great Palm OS-based products. We have sold more than 30 million Palm OS-based products over the years, and it is not our intent to walk away from such a strong and loyal user base. That's why in May we extended our license for Palm OS, giving us the right to continue to make and market Palm OS-based products until 2010.


    Treo 700p, Hollywood, Lowrider Treos Coming Next Year
    Posted By: Ryan on Monday, November 21, 2005 11:38:15 AM
    Sagio Investments, one of the largest Palm shareholders, has released a new investment report on Palm Inc. The report details Palm's current business strategy and market analysis. The report even goes on to detail a number of future Treo product releases for 2006.


    The Palm research report has been posted by Sagio Investments here (.pdf link).

    Highlights Include:

    Smartphones represented 67% of revenues in 1Q06, growing 167% yoy. Palm also picked up market share in the US with 31% of the market second only to RIMM (55%). PALM had 11% of worldwide market share behind both RIMM (22%) and NOKIA (17%).
    Palm's handheld market-share in the US is 61%
    According to industry report the market for data enabled devices (Treo and blackberry line) will grow tenfold by 2008. Passing from an estimate 4 millions devices to an estimate 40 millions.
    They claim Push Email is the first real killer-app for Smartphones and compares it to the introduction on of spreadsheets and Word for PC.
    Palm has a competitive advantage because it can run the most Push email systems on the market
    Palm has a very high chance to ship over 2.5 million Smartphones in fiscal 2006
    They conclude that Palm's stock valuation is currently "cheap" and compare it's price to Apple Computer's before the company introduced the iPod line.
    New Treo Products
    The report also details that the company has learned that Palm will introduce several new Treo models in 2006. These include the Treo 700w (the Windows Mobile Treo), a 700p (the same model running Palm OS Garnet) as well as two new designs code-named "Hollywood" and "Lowrider".

    We know that PALM will introduce four new models in CY 06. In January they will introduce the already announced Treo 700 Windows which will be a Verizon exclusivity it will be the first EV-DO Treo on the market. Around the same time we believe PALM will launch a Treo 700p running PALM OS on the Sprint network, both devices will keep same form factor and will capitalize on the Treo strong foothold in the US enterprise Market.
    We also learned that PALM will be launching two new products around March 06 codenamed “Hollywood” and “Lowrider”. According to the Morgan Stanley analyst in Asia (covers HTC) the estimate production output will be 200K devices/month.

    “Hollywood” will be a fancier 3G/GSM smartphone which will represent PALM first attempt at the European GSM market. We know the phone will have no external antenna and will probably he launched by Cingular in the US.

    “Lowrider” will be a sub-$300 devices utilizing previous generation radios and providing PALM with an entry level PDA.

    Thanks to David Beers for the tip.



    Palm Says 3 New Treo Smartphones in 2006
    Posted By: Ryan on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:11:29 PM
    Palm CEO Ed Colligan stated in todays Palm's earnings conference call that Palm will announce three new smartphones next year, in addition to the Treo 700w. Read on for more details.


    "We'll roll out the Palm Treo 700w smartphone based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile, and we'll announce three additional new smartphones during calendar year 2006." said said Ed Colligan. During the conference call he further stated that these new models will debut with new industrial designs and at different price points. They will also implement next-generation radio technologies.
    Last edited by gtwo; 01/12/2006 at 12:25 PM.
  13.    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    I tried turning off the border with TCPMP and it didn't work. Has anyone gotten this working on their 650? My understanding is that it's a hardware thing. Some of the newer screens support it, some don't. The TX and LifeDrive do, most others don't.
    Hmmm...I try is again on my treo. I might have been thinking of Kinoma EK or MMplayer. I post again when I have a chance to mess around with it...

    As far as the Bluetooth stack...how much of this is hardware vs firmware? The TX and LifeDrive arguably don't *need* a newer stack since BT for them is mainly about DUN, sending files between devices, or syncing over BT, all of which can be done OK now. Other exciting features that BT 1.2 offers (stereo headsets?) would also require writing the drivers, no? So they may look at the advantage not being worth the development costs.

    With a Treo, however, supporting BT 1.2 becomes more important because it improves sound quality, reduces interference, etc. And those added features likely come along for the ride just by having a BT 1.2 chip (i.e., no special drivers needing to be written by Palm).
    It's all a firmware issue. Some of the major advantages of BT 1.2 spec are the AD2P, HID profiels and of course variable freq hopping feature for reduced wifi interference. AD2P of course is necessary for stereo BT headphones and HID is for human interface devices like BT keyboards etc.

    Palm could have used 1.2 in the 650, but they didn't presumably b/c most devices on the market at the time only supported 1.1 to begin with. Furthermore, BT 1.2 sig was lisenced by default for PalmOS Cobalt, not frankengarnet. Of course, if Palm really wanted to, they could have just lisenced BT 1.2 spec directly for their devices.

    Most Treo users have been begging for BT update for loong time. Witness things like the AD2P bounty thread for example, but no progress has been made on this. Other factors include lisencing costs for certain profiles like HID. But many accessory OEM's like ThinkOutside have begun to offer these without lisencing costs to encourage adoption into device BT stacks:

    http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6319
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  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    700P
    We know that PALM will introduce four new models in CY 06. In January they will introduce the already announced Treo 700 Windows which will be a Verizon exclusivity it will be the first EV-DO Treo on the market. Around the same time we believe PALM will launch a Treo 700p running PALM OS on the Sprint network, both devices will keep same form factor and will capitalize on the Treo strong foothold in the US enterprise Market.
    We also learned that PALM will be launching two new products around March 06 codenamed “Hollywood” and “Lowrider”. According to the Morgan Stanley analyst in Asia (covers HTC) the estimate production output will be 200K devices/month.

    Yeah, I remember that report by Saigio(?) that was eventually pulled. They obviously were wrong about the 700p launch though and consequently I wonder about the predicted hollywood and lowrider launch dates...
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  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    700P
    EV-DO
    I BELIEVE !!



    [Palm Says 3 New Treo Smartphones in 2006
    Posted By: Ryan on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:11:29 PM
    Palm CEO Ed Colligan stated in todays Palm's earnings conference call that Palm will announce three new smartphones next year, in addition to the Treo 700w. Read on for more details.


    "We'll roll out the Palm Treo 700w smartphone based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile, and we'll announce three additional new smartphones during calendar year 2006." said said Ed Colligan. During the conference call he further stated that these new models will debut with new industrial designs and at different price points. They will also implement next-generation radio technologies.


    Hi gfunkmagic !!

    My point was more the last sentence --- it will have EV-DO.

    If not, why bother, it would be a total joke.

    Cheers, Perry.
  16. pump142's Avatar
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    #16  
    Its not really about what we want, its all about the carriers.
    EVDO means to us fast...to them it means they show a better product to keep us from jumping carriers.

    It will have it Perry. I believe too
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    We'll roll out the Palm Treo 700w smartphone based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile, and we'll announce three additional new smartphones during calendar year 2006." said said Ed Colligan. During the conference call he further stated that these new models will debut with new industrial designs and at different price points. They will also implement next-generation radio technologies.
    Hi gfunkmagic !!

    My point was more the last sentence --- it will have EV-DO.

    If not, why bother, it would be a total joke.

    Cheers, Perry.
    He did not say one of the other 3 Treo's would also not be WM. In fact the antenna-less Treo is almost certainly WM, with a more advanced UMTS radio for Europe.

    Surur
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    700P
    EV-DO
    I BELIEVE !!



    ED COLLIGAN...

    "We'll roll out the Palm Treo 700w smartphone based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile, and we'll announce three additional new smartphones during calendar year 2006." said Ed Colligan. During the conference call he further stated that these new models will debut with new industrial designs and at different price points. They will also implement next-generation radio technologies.

    Since the world now seems to live on parsing the words of the speaker, look at the substantial difference between "roll out" and "announce" - they could announce today they'll have three new models, but "roll out" is the operative term.

    Like others around here, if it is a Frankengarnet retread, I think it will fall flat on its face. Perhaps Palmux is in the mix, but that would be a real leap for Palm to release a substantially new OS (look how long it took to go from the base to 4.0, then 5.0, and Cobalt that never left the oven). I don't believe Mr. Cooligan is deceitful; I just don't buy into a Palm OS future. Besides, a further drift to the dark side by Palm is within the scope of these announcements.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.

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