Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 189
  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    LOL!

    Truthfully all of these arguments about WIFI all throughout nearly every forum here at TC is about those who may not have a need personally for WIFI unable to recognize that there is a whole group of people that actually have a need that they don't, so since they don't need it why offer it to anyone.

    Remember Grief Kits, err Heath Kits? Instead of "Cafeteria Benefits", how about "Cafateria Treo Kits"? You want WiFi? -- it's in the box! You want GPS? --it's in the box! You want 2 SD slots? -- it's in the box!



    Cheers, Perry.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    There are already quite a few phones that have wifi built in (or that you can use with an sd card)...how are carriers having to handle that with the current level of tech support?
    I dont have exact figures, but from what I have gathered from the news and financial reports, although there are phones with wi-fi, the Treo 650 numbers are way ahead of any US carrier-sold-and-supported smartphone with wi-fi. Its not that the phones are not out there, just not in the huge numbers that they would be if Palm had put wi-fi into the thing, And I'm sure that for the phones that ARE out there with wi-fi, they have been a headache for tech-support, just as I'm sure it would be far, far worse if the 650 and 700 had it.

    Now, hey, if putting wi-fi on the thing doesnt cost me anything in the way of price or compromised features, I'm all for it. I can imagine myself playing with it at the coffee shop. And IF including wi-fi would increase sales significantly, then its quite possible that could result in no increase in the price for including it. But I doubt it.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    I dont have exact figures, but from what I have gathered from the news and financial reports, although there are phones with wi-fi, the Treo 650 numbers are way ahead of any US carrier-sold-and-supported smartphone with wi-fi.
    There are lots of possible reasons for this including that it has the best form factor of any convergence device...lack of wifi may have nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Its not that the phones are not out there, just not in the huge numbers that they would be if Palm had put wi-fi into the thing,
    How do you come to that conclusion? If I imagine wifi being in the treo 600 and then into the 650...I think the sales would be even better and less people would be willing to jump to another device/platform.

    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    And I'm sure that for the phones that ARE out there with wi-fi, they have been a headache for tech-support, just as I'm sure it would be far, far worse if the 650 and 700 had it.
    This is a good point, but it's hard to tell without having some sort of information from carriers on the number of calls that they get for wifi 'help'.

    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Now, hey, if putting wi-fi on the thing doesnt cost me anything in the way of price or compromised features, I'm all for it. I can imagine myself playing with it at the coffee shop. And IF including wi-fi would increase sales significantly, then its quite possible that could result in no increase in the price for including it. But I doubt it.
    As far as costs...it's debatable if it would any enough to make it less economically feasible. From a marketing standpoint, I think palm has to be considering it at some point for the treo. EVDO helps but that only benefits you if you are in a coverage area.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    LOL!

    Truthfully all of these arguments about WIFI all throughout nearly every forum here at TC is about those who may not have a need personally for WIFI unable to recognize that there is a whole group of people that actually have a need that they don't, so since they don't need it why offer it to anyone.
    Really, there are two seperate issues: selfishness and reality

    Selfishness: I certainly realize that there are those that would benifit from having wi-fi even though I don't. For me, I would rather not pay (in price or compromised features including size) for something that I dont need if possible. I'm sure the people who never use the camera felt the same way. Now, also being selfish, if I thought having wi-fi on the thing would make the difference in the phone being successful or a failure, then I would strongly support it since I want the thing to succeed. I just dont think that is the case with this device although I could be wrong. Offering two versions solves the selfishness problem, that just is probably not pracitical from Palm's standpoint

    Reality: Unlike some other phones, carriers have actually helped bankroll development of the Treos. Thats one reason why threre have been exclusive deals and the like. Plus THE CARRIERS are Plam's main market not the end user. For obvious reasons, the carriers don't want wi-fi as a standard, built-in, easy to obtain, feature. At least not in a phone they are pushing hard with advertising, promotion and developmental support. I see 650 ads and billboards all over the place. Not so much with the 6600. The carriers may tolerate wi-fi to some extent, but they are not going to want to do that on their "flagship" phone they are helping, one way or the other, to fund. So...if the carriers are not hot for wi-fi, Palm wont be either.
  5. #105  
    If WIFI is such an issue with extremes on both ends....those who don't need it, never want to see it in their phone....and those who absolutely need it so they dump the Treo for a phone with WIFI....why don't they do the same thing as when they offer a camera model and a cameraless model? Why couldn't Palm offer a Treo and a TreoWIFI for $30-50 more? Everyone is happy, extra cost for Palm all or mostly covered, and then Palm would be able to get real hard feedback with the desire/need for WIFI once and for all. AND all customers are happy. Then these endless I need WIFI....no you don't need WIFI debates would finally end.


    EDIT: midmofan, I posted mine without even seeing your post yet!
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    If WIFI is such an issue with extremes on both ends....those who don't need it, never want to see it in their phone....and those who absolutely need it so they dump the Treo for a phone with WIFI....why don't they do the same thing as when they offer a camera model and a cameraless model? Why couldn't Palm offer a Treo and a TreoWIFI for $30-50 more? Everyone is happy, extra cost for Palm all or mostly covered, and then Palm would be able to get real hard feedback with the desire/need for WIFI once and for all. AND all customers are happy. Then these endless I need WIFI....no you don't need WIFI debates would finally end.


    EDIT: midmofan, I posted mine without even seeing your post yet!
    I think this is one vote for Treo Kits!
    (Post #101)

    Cheers, Perry.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    For obvious reasons, the carriers don't want wi-fi as a standard, built-in, easy to obtain, feature.
    I don't see the obvious reasons if:

    1. There really aren't that many hotspots out there for people to use (at least that is the argument I have heard).

    2. PPC phones have wifi or offer a sdcard wifi option.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Why couldn't Palm offer a Treo and a TreoWIFI for $30-50 more?
    My understanding was that Palm charged the same price for camera/non-camera version. Those that had the non-camera version (helped subsidize) got stuck with the price...why can't the non-wifi people get stuck with the same price.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  9. dootndo2's Avatar
    Posts
    29 Posts
    Global Posts
    58 Global Posts
    #109  
    I have been following this Wifi battle for many months now and have to finally point out some problems that I have.

    1. Wifi is very cheap. If they wanted to even put in a basic 11Mb chip, it would be a few dollars to add it.
    2. The data plans provided by the Cell providers is spotty and slow. It is very slow. It is almost a waste. I have an unlimited plan and if the site is not set up to redirect to a wap or micro site, it locks up the device because of the large downloads.
    Example:
    Go to ebay.com and try to buy something. Thankfully, ebay has a wap site.
    3. The 650 has bluetooth. I cannot imagine that most people upgraded just for that. Hopefully, people upgraded to eliminate the buzzing sound from the T600. The T600 is a terrible phone, but a great organinzer.
    4. I had Wifi on my Handspring Visor (springboard). It was very slow and almost unusable. Will the processor and the browser be able to accomodate Wifi? And not at a pure minimum. Power user performance. Most likely not.

    IMHO, I think that it is more a technical problem that the device was not designed to have multiple network devices and requires a hardware and/or software redesign in order to support it. That would explain when Shadowmite built the Wifi hack that you have to disconnect the cellular connection and reset the device for it to work. And the reverse to enable the cellular. Also, that would explain why the devices that Palm makes that have Wifi do not support Cellular (like Tungsten, etc).

    I think Palm has successfully boxed themselves in to a technical conundrum into which they receive ample kickbacks from the providers by not building a device that supports Wifi.

    Until we stop saying we don't need it, we will never get it.

    That is a shame. It should be at least an SD card so that we can add functionality as the device was originally intended.

    dootndo2
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    At least not in a phone they are pushing hard with advertising, promotion and developmental support. I see 650 ads and billboards all over the place. Not so much with the 6600. The carriers may tolerate wi-fi to some extent, but they are not going to want to do that on their "flagship" phone they are helping, one way or the other, to fund. So...if the carriers are not hot for wi-fi, Palm wont be either.
    Advertising like this is not the norm in this industry. The only other exception that I can think of is the Razor (and BB to a lesser degree). My point is that in the last year this has become a wider available option in competing phones and has really started to weigh heavily on many of my Treo diehard fans with wandering eyes.

    Again...I want Palm to be successful. I have no stats, but extensive circle of professionals that live and die by their phones for work which often times includes a lot time on the road. Again, many of them love their 650s and a year ago would never have thought about leaving them, but I see more and more going with a WM WIFI phone or talking about serious considerations for jumping ship with WIFI being among the very top of reasons why.

    Do I use WIFI all the time? NO. But, being in the world of travelling professionals (which the Treo targets), WIFI can become the difference in getting those vital emails or stats or failing in my job because I was roaming.....When you roam...No Vision...No Vision then No Data....No Data then No Internet....No Internet then No Email or Web Access. No Internet or Email Access then I am tough out of luck while sitting in a McDonalds with Wifi waves flying all around me begging to be used for free.

    Another example is I fly alot and there a times that it is hard to get a signal in an airport, especially when in those underground sections that many of them have. Again, no signal....No Vision...No Vision then No Data....No Data then No Internet....No Internet then No Email or Web Access. While sitting in an airport with FREE wifi buzzing all around just begging to be used, but I cannot take advantage of it.

    Many of my co-workers, and my bosses, have noticed and commented how grateful and vital it was that I had this capability at key moments during this last year.

    A year ago there were not many options to get WIFI, so not much incentive to leave their Treos for another phone. This is no longer the case and I personally see an effect that this is having on decisions as they upgrade to their new phone. I just hope Palm actually looks at this seriously from a business loss sales perspective because I think it is a reality.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I don't see the obvious reasons [for carriers to not like wi-fi] if:

    1. There really aren't that many hotspots out there for people to use (at least that is the argument I have heard).

    2. PPC phones have wifi or offer a sdcard wifi option.
    That carriers dont like wi-fi is pretty well established. A search of the topic will pop up lots of articles. In short, if you are using wi-fi you are not using the data plan they want to charge you for and if you are using wi-fi, you might be using VOIP or other methods to avoid their phone network as well, cutting into the minutes you use or need. Does not matter how many hotspots there are -- in some areas many, in some not a lot-- evey one takes away from revenue.

    As to the PPC phones that offer wi-fi, they are a slightly different kettle of fish. They are more expensive generally which can help to make up for some wi-fi revenue loss, they are not as near as high a volume (so not as big an issue anyway) and the carrier did not fund the development of it or agree to exclusive promotional deals, etc. So, while wi-fi is not a "never-no-matter-what" issue with the carriers, from the carriers perspective its more like a "why should we help pay for something that will cost us revenue when we dont have to?" type of thinking. Also some carriers have, historically, charged more per month for PPC phones (have not checked recently though) than plam devices.

    So its a trade off for the carrier, they have to decide what is best for them overall factoring in what they can and can't control. Offering no wi-fi phones under any circumstances would probably be bad business since there are those that would go to another carrier if you didnt offer one. But avoiding wi-fi for its "mass-market" high-end phone, where you would be giving wi-fi to everybody, including people who were not demanding it and would have never had used it until you gave it to them, probably makes sense. I am a good example for that. I wouldnt go out and get a device because of wi-fi, but if it was already on my phone would probably play with it some at times which could cut into my carriers revenue.

    With the Treo there is a good chance they can control whether or not wi-fi is included so, if they feel the potential loss of revenue from wi-fi outweighs the potential loss of customers from no wi-fi on the treo, that is the decision they will make.

    IF the carriers calculation is correct, then the best senario for them is to have wi-fi available on a few more expensive, not heavily promoted, low-volume phones (for those people that must have it) and to keep wi-fi off of the phone they are going to push hard to get to every potential smartphone user. Which, in fact, is the senario we have now.
    Last edited by midmofan; 12/28/2005 at 02:25 PM.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by dootndo2
    3. The 650 has bluetooth. I cannot imagine that most people upgraded just for that. Hopefully, people upgraded to eliminate the buzzing sound from the T600. The T600 is a terrible phone, but a great organinzer.

    dootndo2
    In Defence of the 600 vs 650... My 600 was a hellofa stable handheld. My old 650 crashed almost as often as my Tungsten T2 does.

    I upgraded b.c of the newer os, NV memory, Hi Rez Screen, Better camera, and Bluetooth... Give the 650 more credit then calling it a 600 with bluetooth.

    Timmay
    Iím a lucky man to count on both hands
    The ones I love..

    Visor Pro -> Visor Edge -> Treo 180 -> Treo 270 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 650 -> T|T2+SE T68i -> Treo 600 -> T-Mobile MDA -> Treo 755p -> Treo 800w -> Treo 755p -> PALM PRE -> Palm Pre 2 -> HP Palm Pre 3

    Twittering about
  13. #113  
    Although I'm not a wi-fi user, I agree with you mostly, Hobbes, except for one thing. Under the current system of how phones are sold and marketed in the US, its going to be more of the carrier decision than a Palm decision. I also hope they make the right decision since I want Palm to continue!

    Just in the last year I have seen 650s all over the place and a lot of them are in the hands of people that not only dont need wi-fi, they dont need a 1/10th of what the treo can do. Its those folks the carriers worry about most, methinks; the ones who would never demand wifi, never give up a phone that doesnt have it, but who might use it if it was already on what you gave them.

    Also agree about the 650 and Razor ads being unique, but in both cases, there were exclusive development/promotion deals which helps make my point about the carriers. They are not as likely to do that with a wi-fi phone as they will with their "mass-market/high-end" phone.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Advertising like this is not the norm in this industry. The only other exception that I can think of is the Razor (and BB to a lesser degree). My point is that in the last year this has become a wider available option in competing phones and has really started to weigh heavily on many of my Treo diehard fans with wandering eyes.

    Again...I want Palm to be successful. I have no stats, but extensive circle of professionals that live and die by their phones for work which often times includes a lot time on the road. Again, many of them love their 650s and a year ago would never have thought about leaving them, but I see more and more going with a WM WIFI phone or talking about serious considerations for jumping ship with WIFI being among the very top of reasons why.

    Do I use WIFI all the time? NO. But, being in the world of travelling professionals (which the Treo targets), WIFI can become the difference in getting those vital emails or stats or failing in my job because I was roaming.....When you roam...No Vision...No Vision then No Data....No Data then No Internet....No Internet then No Email or Web Access. No Internet or Email Access then I am tough out of luck while sitting in a McDonalds with Wifi waves flying all around me begging to be used for free.

    Another example is I fly alot and there a times that it is hard to get a signal in an airport, especially when in those underground sections that many of them have. Again, no signal....No Vision...No Vision then No Data....No Data then No Internet....No Internet then No Email or Web Access. While sitting in an airport with FREE wifi buzzing all around just begging to be used, but I cannot take advantage of it.

    Many of my co-workers, and my bosses, have noticed and commented how grateful and vital it was that I had this capability at key moments during this last year.

    A year ago there were not many options to get WIFI, so not much incentive to leave their Treos for another phone. This is no longer the case and I personally see an effect that this is having on decisions as they upgrade to their new phone. I just hope Palm actually looks at this seriously from a business loss sales perspective because I think it is a reality.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    If WIFI is such an issue with extremes on both ends....those who don't need it, never want to see it in their phone....and those who absolutely need it so they dump the Treo for a phone with WIFI....why don't they do the same thing as when they offer a camera model and a cameraless model? Why couldn't Palm offer a Treo and a TreoWIFI for $30-50 more? Everyone is happy, extra cost for Palm all or mostly covered, and then Palm would be able to get real hard feedback with the desire/need for WIFI once and for all. AND all customers are happy. Then these endless I need WIFI....no you don't need WIFI debates would finally end.


    EDIT: midmofan, I posted mine without even seeing your post yet!
    Yeah thats funny, we are really thinking the same way, just that you need wi-fi and I don't. And I agree that the people that dont ever use their camera are paying for something they dont need as well, I just dont want it to happen to me!!!
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_treo
    "That's a good point, there is a physical size difference between some of the wifi phones but then again, compare the physical size of the treo with the i730?"

    I haven't seen the i730, but it's not only just physical size and features that matters. If they implement Wifi, then they have to support it. Wifi always seems to be one of the flakiest feature on pc's and on wifi PDAs, so I imagine it will suck up a fair amount of tech support time. In the end Palm has to settle on a vision for what the phone is going to do, and have it do it well. You're not going to meet every customer's need. I just don't think their vision of what a smartphone is inlcudes wifi, and I agree with this vision.
    Palm's has three assumptions to their vision:

    1) If a person puts up the $$$ for a Treo then he is going to buy the data plan. Since EVDO's speed is comparable to WIFI, including WIFI would be a redundant feature that increases cost and potentially compromises other design considerations.

    2) If a person is not putting up the $$$ for a Treo and a data plan, he is going to buy a PDA instead of a Treo. That is why several Palm PDA's have WIFI capabilities.

    3) If a person falls outside these two assumptions then they will switch to another company and that is okay because it will be such a small percentage that it will not impact profits.

    You can lobby all you want for having WIFI but you can't argue with Palm's profit margin from the millions of Treos they've sold.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  16. #116  
    I'm curious as to what i-mate's profit margin is, being that they offer it all in one device and don't skimp. And are also more internationally accepted than Palm. Does anyone know?

    Also HP. They have also put out all-in-one devices. Or included the option to add features, unlike Palm.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  17. Reapman's Avatar
    Posts
    75 Posts
    Global Posts
    76 Global Posts
    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    Palm's has three assumptions to their vision:

    1) If a person puts up the $$$ for a Treo then he is going to buy the data plan. Since EVDO's speed is comparable to WIFI, including WIFI would be a redundant feature that increases cost and potentially compromises other design considerations.

    2) If a person is not putting up the $$$ for a Treo and a data plan, he is going to buy a PDA instead of a Treo. That is why several Palm PDA's have WIFI capabilities.

    3) If a person falls outside these two assumptions then they will switch to another company and that is okay because it will be such a small percentage that it will not impact profits.

    You can lobby all you want for having WIFI but you can't argue with Palm's profit margin from the millions of Treos they've sold.
    You again are assuming EVDO is as readaily and cheaply accessable as WiFi... which is NOT TRUE. Come to where I am, and tell me why I should spend the cost of a WiFi Card PER MONTH for slower then WiFi speeds.

    Btw, Point #3 is basically all of Canada, international travellers, and non EVDO USA. Right now WiFI is the only commonly accepted world wide standard for wireless transmission, other stuff may be coming down the pipe, but that's it for right now.

    edit: Regardless, should probably just agree to disagree on this issue and move on, it's not like Palm is going to listen much to us anyways Those wishing no WiFi I bid you good luck on the 700p, and to those of us wanting, I wish us (more) luck
    Last edited by Reapman; 12/28/2005 at 05:40 PM.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    LOL!

    Truthfully all of these arguments about WIFI all throughout nearly every forum here at TC is about those who may not have a need personally for WIFI unable to recognize that there is a whole group of people that actually have a need that they don't, so since they don't need it why offer it to anyone.

    I agree. I'm sick of being told I have no right to choice of connection because EVDO is available! I don't use Verizon anyway. I would use EDGE since I'm a Cingular user! Some of these EVDO pluggers must be Verizon users. I guess they think we all need to use Verizon too and forget choice of carriers, since they keep talking about EVDO so damn much!!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  19. Tim_treo's Avatar
    Posts
    72 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #119  
    "You again are assuming EVDO is as readaily and cheaply accessable as WiFi... which is NOT TRUE. Come to where I am, and tell me why I should spend the cost of a WiFi Card PER MONTH for slower then WiFi speeds."

    I don't think there is any such assumption in the carrier or Palm's business model. In fact, I bet a major selling point of the business plan is that they can charge significant amounts for these high speed data network services.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I'm curious as to what i-mate's profit margin is, being that they offer it all in one device and don't skimp. And are also more internationally accepted than Palm. Does anyone know?.
    Imate is just a small re-distributor of HTC WM Phones. They are listed on the London stock exchange and head quartered in Dubai. They have a market cap of $520 million, and made a $12 million profit on $95 million revenue. Their revenue grew 138% last year, and profit 226% . They are expanding aggressively all over the world, including America. Their profit margin was 25% recently.

    http://www.londonstockexchange.com/L...758&source=RNS

    Surur

Posting Permissions