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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman6
    Isolated, my ***. The city of Minneapolis is down to two finalists for a citywide wifi network. IMO the entire Twin Cities metro will go wifi by the end of the decade. This is a trend, baby. One of the two contenders is proposing a WiMax backbone with WiFi hotspots.
    ...one problem. Just because a city puts up a network doesn't mean it's going to STAY up! And what's to prevent another company from moving into town and deciding they want to use that spectrum for something? It's unliscensed. The city can't do a damn thing about it. I'm not saying the cases being made here for wi-fi aren't valid, and that the uses aren't there, but it's so unreliable (In terms of being unliscensed, not technologically! I know it works!) that I can't see it lasting. As Minneapolis (or any other city) suddenly faces some unforeseen financial crisis like sewage problems, or rat infestations, or crumbling public buildings and their wi-fi network is experiencing problems from some new player who's moved to town and needs an overhaul what do you think they'll spend the money on? If they want to be re-elected they'll spend it on something that benefits the most people, not the two or three thousand using the free wi-fi network. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that no terrestrial data network on the planet has been successful. Ever. Check out some of the previous editions of Andy Seybold's newsletter at www.outlook4mobility.com. Great insight into why these "Free Wi-fi networks" are a waste of time and taxpayers dollars.
    One other thing I've failed to mention previously. You will not see wi-fi on these devices because YOU are not the "customer" Palm is trying to please. You're delusional if you think you are. The "customer" is the network they're selling them on. Why do you think the 650 really had some of the bugs it did when it came out? Because Sprint didn't care about memory, or Bluetooth functionality, or resets. Now don't get me wrong. They did QC testing that they felt was adequate. They didn't purposefully put out a product with issues, despite what some on the board would have you believe, but they also knew that the bottom line was the device met the specs they had asked for, and that was good enough for them. Sprint (and other carriers) want you on their data plan, not wi-fi. Period. That's why you don't see it. Sure, there are those devices with it, but there are always exceptions that prove the rule, and truthfully Sprint only has one wi-fi enabled phone (6700). Hell, its users "Vison usage rate" may directly affect whether you ever see another wi-fi enabled phone on there network. You don't know.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
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  2. #62  
    Thanks for reminding us that once again the customer isn't the one who forked over the $500. We forked over $500 to be a slave to what the carrier wants, even paying for a device with bugs because the carrier didn't really care.

    This is one reason why I like unlocked unbranded phones!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #63  
    Doom -

    All true, EXCEPT the Emperor may be losing his clothes (at least in GSM land). With generic Smartphones and PDAphones coming from HTC and others WITH Wifi, we may be able to crack carrier domination that prohibits WiFi on cell phones.

    It doesn't matter whether EVERYONE has a use of Wifi; and in fact, a widely available truly high speed wireless connection would eliminate the need for WiFi for many, it is still a very useful tool for many of us, especially at home and inside the corporate firewall.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  4. #64  
    sorry, it is not the carriers who are limiting them from having wifi, my 6700 has it and I use it daily, it is Palm...
  5. #65  
    Unfortunately DrDoom is spot on about the carriers being the customer.

    Ultimately the only way to break this model is for the consumer to vote with their wallets. The problem is that you probably are not going to find a carrier that will give you a combination of total freedom on their network (unlimited WiFi, DUN, and EVDO all for $15/month) along with a phone service thatís useable everywhere. Thatís just not going to happen in the US with various network standards (CDMA and GSM) and providers. The big carriers donít have to do it because they already have such a huge share of the market and the smaller guys can load you up with options, but if their network penetration is small, what use are the features? Thatís not to say things wonít eventually change, but mobile service is what everyone wants (not necessarily smartphones), so the manufactures and providers are in the drivers seat. Itís a sellers market. Hopefully dstrauss is correct with his post.

    Also, as it relates to quality control, you are always going to have a certain percentage of any mass produced electronic item that is going to fail for various reasons. That is an accepted part of the manufacturing process, albeit not necessarily acceptable to us. Sites like TC blow that failure rate out of perspective because many people come here for a solution to a problem. However, TC has what, 50,000 members and they've sold how many Treos? I imagine the carriers test these things in their out-of-the-box state, not the way we TC users tweak them. In a ďvirginĒ state, my Treo has more memory then I need, is very stable, and has decent battery life for the amount of power it is required to draw. However, I donít want to use it in that state, but I, and most of us here, are in the minority when it comes to using these things. The manufactures will never cater to the bleeding-edge types because it isnít profitable. Their target is the middle of the market.

    Anyway, my point is that without the carrier there is no Treo smartphone (maybe just a Treo PDA). I personally do not blame Sprint for any of my perceived shortcomings with the Treo.
  6. #66  
    I suspect you are all 3 right. It's Palm caving in to carriers' demands and not listening to the customer shelling out the money. Palm has no problem putting wi-fi on some of it's other devices, as we have seen.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  7. #67  
    Back to the whole point of.....I don't care if Minneapolis has WiFi now, in the future, or whatever (directed @ Doom.) The whole point is that I have several areas where WiFi is useful to me (and EVDO is NOT the preferred option for that particular situation.) Therefore, I want a phone with WiFi so I can have the option to use it when I feel like it. It's as simple as that. I don't use BT all the time, but I wanted a phone that had BT so that when the occasion arises, I can use it.

    It's simply about having a feature available that many people find to be of value. Argue all you want about EVDO, it really is pointless. It should be clear by now that many of us want WiFi and the arguments in this forum saying WiFi is useless (in that persons world maybe) will not change the desire for those of us who find it usefull.

    Now wether or not Palm or the carrier is directing this decision of having no WiFi, we can guess all we want. But to be honest, unless you're going to take some sort of action by contacting the one directing this decision, it's all pointless and just going to frustrate those of us who want it even more.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  8. #68  
    For me it doesn't matter where the responsibility lies with including or denying WIFI, I feel that all common options for connectivity should be provided so the customer has the opportunity to get that vital email no matter what situation he or she is in.

    Again, I have stated in great detail my position concerning WIFI here:




    .
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/23/2005 at 07:17 PM.
  9. ajg
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    #69  
    If we want the perfect piece of hardware....why don't we just create an "Open Source" piece of hardware. ;-)
  10. #70  
    If users really want WiFi there are other options available, if you want a Treo with WiFi then users need to make it clear to Palm they want WiFi. The excuses Palm uses for why the Treo's in general do not have WiFi is old and outdated. I have had all ranges of devices with and without WiFi, for me EV-DO is the better option since I do not live in an area with lots of FREE WiFi. I have the hx4705 and it was great, but I wasn't using the WiFi so I sold it.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    For me it doesn't matter where the responsibility lies with including or denying WIFI, I feel that all common options for connectivity should be provided so the customer has the opportunity to get that vital email no matter what situation he or she is in.

    Again, I have stated in great detail my position concerning WIFI here:




    .
    To me it does matter, because I'm sick of being told I need to use a proprietary data plan when I don't need or want one. They are responsible for backing consumers into a corner by denying choice, and someone needs to yell at them for it.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    The Hollywood model is calling my name.
    After reading the descriptions, I was thinking the exact same thing.....something like a PalmRazr.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    Back to the whole point of.....I don't care if Minneapolis has WiFi now, in the future, or whatever (directed @ Doom.) The whole point is that I have several areas where WiFi is useful to me (and EVDO is NOT the preferred option for that particular situation.) Therefore, I want a phone with WiFi so I can have the option to use it when I feel like it. It's as simple as that. I don't use BT all the time, but I wanted a phone that had BT so that when the occasion arises, I can use it.

    It's simply about having a feature available that many people find to be of value. Argue all you want about EVDO, it really is pointless. It should be clear by now that many of us want WiFi and the arguments in this forum saying WiFi is useless (in that persons world maybe) will not change the desire for those of us who find it usefull.

    Now wether or not Palm or the carrier is directing this decision of having no WiFi, we can guess all we want. But to be honest, unless you're going to take some sort of action by contacting the one directing this decision, it's all pointless and just going to frustrate those of us who want it even more.
    I understand networking just fine, thank you. What I think you are saying is that you would want a Treo that has WIFI INSTEAD of having some sort of data service via EVD0, Edge, Vision, etc. So as you say, you can occassionally access the internet when the occassion is available or required without having to pay for a data service. What I did not understand is that anyone with a Treo would want that. But to each their own.

    I disagree with the statement that it should be clear to Palm that many are demanding this because I have the feeling that you are in a very small minority. Palm has already stated that the major driving force of the Treo sales is email which requires a more readily available approach to accessing the internet than WIFI spots. And I don't think ANY carrier in their right mind would want to offer a Treo that had WIFI but no data service. Good luck with that one. May the Force be with you.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    To me it does matter, because I'm sick of being told I need to use a proprietary data plan when I don't need or want one. They are responsible for backing consumers into a corner by denying choice, and someone needs to yell at them for it.
    But do you currently pay for a data plan?
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  15. #75  
    Can't you tell? NO. I pay only when I use it, which is not enough to get a data plan.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    I understand networking just fine, thank you. What I think you are saying is that you would want a Treo that has WIFI INSTEAD of having some sort of data service via EVD0, Edge, Vision, etc. So as you say, you can occassionally access the internet when the occassion is available or required without having to pay for a data service. What I did not understand is that anyone with a Treo would want that. But to each their own.

    I disagree with the statement that it should be clear to Palm that many are demanding this because I have the feeling that you are in a very small minority. Palm has already stated that the major driving force of the Treo sales is email which requires a more readily available approach to accessing the internet than WIFI spots. And I don't think ANY carrier in their right mind would want to offer a Treo that had WIFI but no data service. Good luck with that one. May the Force be with you.
    I think we need to have the CHOICE of wi-fi as an alternative. Not dump data plans, obviously. Of course heavy data users will sign up for data service. Thank goodness they finally realized people want choice and offered a wi-fi card solution with the 700w. It's a start. But there are still 5 devices that offer built-in wi-fi that I'd rather use instead.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    <snip> What I think you are saying is that you would want a Treo that has WIFI INSTEAD of having some sort of data service via EVD0, Edge, Vision, etc. <snip>
    Exactly the problem going on here....misunderstanding. I NEVER stated that I didn't want EVDO. In fact, I have stated in this forum with absolute certainty that I DO want EVDO. I want both EVDO and WIFI. I want the option to connect to local WiFi networks when I want to. I do not want to always have to go through Sprint's EVDO network then have to hope I can get back in through a firewall (in case I don't have control of said firewall.) Make more sense now?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    <snip> I disagree with the statement that it should be clear to Palm that many are demanding this because I have the feeling that you are in a very small minority. <snip>

    And I disagree about the WiFi being required by the minority. Just a few days ago one of my users (that isn't exactly an IT genius) said she required WiFi in a new handheld. And while I realize that this forum is a small subset of Treo users, you can't deny that if so many here want WiFi, that there must be some demand for it in the wild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    <snip> Palm has already stated that the major driving force of the Treo sales is email which requires a more readily available approach to accessing the internet than WIFI spots. <snip>
    Exactly....say like a corporate wireless network?
    Last edited by Geckotek; 12/26/2005 at 10:29 AM.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  18. #78  
    WHY IS CHOICE SUCH A DIFFICULT CONCEPT?

    No one is FORCING you to accept WiFi, so why do so many take up as shills for Palm and excuse Palm's refusal to add a WiFi radio to the Treo? Many other manufacturers can do it (maybe that's the real answer) and offering a "card" solution on the cusp of 2006 is so 90's. I don't want a second appendage sticking out of the Treo; and worst yet, there goes my memory storage for my oh so generous 32mb Treo.

    If you don't need or want WiFi, FINE, but why do you keep defending Palm's refusal to add it to the Treo line?
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  19. #79  
    I dont HATE wi-fi, but the fact is that I, and many others, don't need it. Since I don't need it, i certainly don't want to pay for it, or have its incorporation into any device I might get result in other compromises.

    As far as Palms "refusal" to include it. They are doing what they have calculated is the best for the device/company. That includes both keeping the price-point below their target and responding to their main customers desires...and their main customers are the carriers who, presumably, are not fond of wi-fi on their phones. Now Palm's calculation could be wrong if more sales are lost because of no wi-fi than are gained by reduced price and happier carrier-customers, but I doubt it.

    As for "choice." Having wi-fi buit in to all phones eliminates the choice of those that dont want to pay for it. Having one device with and one without is obviously possible, but may not be cost-effective to palm and could make carriers unhappy anyway.

    So its pretty simple really. If built in Wi-Fi is that important to you, buy a device that includes it. If it doesnt, then buy accordingly. The marketplace will decide what is needed and not in the long run. If Palm has missed it bad, they will suffer, if not, they have a net gain.
    Last edited by midmofan; 12/27/2005 at 01:03 PM.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    So its pretty simple really. If built in Wi-Fi is that important to you, buy a device that includes it. If it doesnt, then buy accordingly. The marketplace will decide what is needed and not in the long run. If Palm has missed it bad, they will suffer, if not, they have a net gain.
    With more and more phones offering WIFI at the moment and in the near future, I personally think this is a risky business decision as for many professional users....which is what the Treo targets...WIFI is the only source for connectivity in many situations. For me, this was a MAJOR deciding factor for me not upgrading to the Treo 650 and buying the PPC-6600 which supported WIFI. If I was in the same place now as I was then, I would buy the PPC-6700 because it has built in WIFI.

    Until Palm offers it again, I cannot consider getting another Treo. Since I usually upgrade with each new generation, that means they lost me several times over as a customer and will continue to lose my sales until they offer me the opportunity to get my vital emails and stats no matter what situation I am in.

    As you stated not every customer needs WIFI, but there are also those either want it or need it. You are right in saying exactly what I said over a year ago in the thread I posted above.....Palm does need to evaluate the needs vs loss of business. I am just not sure if Palm can afford to make the wrong decision whatever it is.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/27/2005 at 01:58 PM.
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