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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    I'm not familiar with all of the details, but my understanding is that Palm (and any Palm OS licensee) has always had the ability to modify the core OS as it suited them, *but* that any changes they made became the property of PalmSource and could be folded into the core OS for other licensees to make use of in future products. In fact, I believe that several of the features that have been added to the Palm OS came about this way.

    Now with Access owning the Palm OS, that may have changed, but it was an arrangement that worked to PalmSource's advantage, so I don't see why they'd want to change it. That said, there's only so much that you can hack away at Garnet and perhaps adding more significant missing features is more trouble than it's worth. And if Palm was/is unimpressed with the core Cobalt offering, that may have left them with no good option for a more robust Palm OS platform (at least until the Linux option arrived - and there was/is no guarantee that the Linux solution will be on time and/or desirable).

    I wouldn't be surprised if Palm has been secretly working on an all-new OS of their very own behind the scenes. Hopefully Hawkins is involved in that project. As far as the Palm world has been concerned, he's been MIA for some time.
    ...you do make a good point. Neither of us can know what went down in the boardroom, but your logic has one flaw. There have been no significant changes made to Garnet since Palm split into two companies. Therefore, how can you logically argue that the Palm makes changes as they see fit. It is basically the same OS that's been around for years. They didn't add anything of any substance between the 600 and 650, which brings me to another post of yours. You said they'd had a year to "improve" things, well they had a year to "improve" things with the 650, and they did, but in a very limited fashion. What makes you think the 700p or whatever will be any different?
    That's all.
    And just so we're clear, I don't think Palm's management is stupid. They wouldn't be where they are if that were the case. I do, however, believe that bureacracy IS inherently stupid, and ALL major corporations are a bureacracy to a certain extent. Palm's "extent" seems to be a little more than average the last few years. Colligan seems like a genuinely intelligent guy who's trying to make lemonade out of lemons, but its a tough row to hoe. The golden years of PDA companies were when the "tech" guys (re:idea men) were in charge in terms of devices. Unfortunately, the "idea" men tend to run companies into the ground for lack of business sense. "Idea" men need "bean" counters to run the business. Unfortunately for Palm it seems to be all "feast or famine" in this regard.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  2. #122  
    Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, Bill Gates...all idea men with business sense.

    Quite simply, Palm's problem is that they can't quite identify and straddle the audience they are trying to reach (and I think this is more a function of their complicated, outdated software than anything else). Is it enterprise? Is it prosumer? Is it the average joe? Each of these areas already has a major player. So, what Palm really ends up with now is a fragmented audience in the above niche markets. A jack-of-all type approach. And is it no coincidence that their operating system is similar in that regard. I would venture to say that the current Palm OS is more of a jack-of-all type antiquated operating system. Perhaps this is the result of all of this device convergence in recent years compounded by no serious updates to their software.

    On the hardware end of things, I believe they've got it right. The Treo 650 is a superior product, physically. But where do people generally have their problems? With the software. Furthermore, cell service providers never really embraced Palm OS like they have Symbian, WM, etc. Why is that? This still remains a questionmark. Could it be lack of aggressive marketing from Palm's end, or technical issues that cell services providers identified that they'd rather not deal with? Or something else?

    Apple and RIMM really took to the bank the idea of simple products doing simple things and doing them with ease. Then they marketed the crap out of their products. Look at the iterations of ipods and blackberries that have come out over the past five years. Now look at what Palm has brought to market in the past five years. How many of these were winners?

    It is a tell tale sign that in the face of vicious competition that Palm is conceding to what the masses may actually want. A different OS (MS can now deal with server side email connectivity). Only time will tell if this is a wise decision.

    My take? It was Palm's only decision.

    The golden years of PDA companies were when the "tech" guys (re:idea men) were in charge in terms of devices. Unfortunately, the "idea" men tend to run companies into the ground for lack of business sense. "Idea" men need "bean" counters to run the business. Unfortunately for Palm it seems to be all "feast or famine" in this regard.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    There have been no significant changes made to Garnet since Palm split into two companies. Therefore, how can you logically argue that the Palm makes changes as they see fit. It is basically the same OS that's been around for years. They didn't add anything of any substance between the 600 and 650, which brings me to another post of yours. You said they'd had a year to "improve" things, well they had a year to "improve" things with the 650, and they did, but in a very limited fashion. What makes you think the 700p or whatever will be any different?
    A couple thoughts:
    1. The Treo comprises a lot of things beyond the original core operating system - the phone app, data, SMS, MMS, camera, keyboard and other special hardware... That's a lot of programming, and it's very well integrated.

    2. I played around with the LifeDrive in the store recently, and I was surprised at how much they improved the UI. Very slick. Very different look and feel from the Treo. Perhaps it was just a nice front-end; I didn't dig very deep. But it's clear to me that Palm isn't being complacent about its OS situation. Palm talks about how most of its people are software engineers, and I think it shows.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    And just so we're clear, I don't think Palm's management is stupid. They wouldn't be where they are if that were the case. I do, however, believe that bureacracy IS inherently stupid, and ALL major corporations are a bureacracy to a certain extent. Palm's "extent" seems to be a little more than average the last few years. Colligan seems like a genuinely intelligent guy who's trying to make lemonade out of lemons, but its a tough row to hoe. The golden years of PDA companies were when the "tech" guys (re:idea men) were in charge in terms of devices. Unfortunately, the "idea" men tend to run companies into the ground for lack of business sense. "Idea" men need "bean" counters to run the business. Unfortunately for Palm it seems to be all "feast or famine" in this regard.
    IMO, they are somewhat incompetent. At least concerning smartphones. They got blindsided, how'd that happen? How did they not know 2 or 3 other WM smartphones were being released before and/or around the same time they say the WM Treo will be released? Or maybe they just got bad timing and I'm being too harsh, but still you should have some idea what the competition is up to. The 6700 is already out and people are flocking to it. It's GSM partner will be out in one week and people are looking for that too. Then how long before the 6715 comes out?

    So now we're a bit overrun by WM devices. That's good for sales? Maybe with those who're stuck with Verizon contracts, but I honestly don't think the WM Treo will draw a whole lot of NEW buyers from other carriers. No wi-fi means Verizon's high data plans, how many people are going to leave their carriers for that? Cingular has high data plans too, but with wi-fi on those new devices, that settles that(provided Cingular doesn't disable the wi-fi). JMO.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  5. #125  
    Palm absolutely knew that they wouldn't be the first WM device out. They didn't care, because they knew they would absolutley be the first Windows device not to use MSFT standard code. Palm's bet is on their ability to make the Windows OS more user friendly for its customers. They think consumers will notice and approve of the changes. Bottom line is that neither of us know how that will work out. We can both guess, but we don't know.

    Yet you persist in calling Palm "somewhat incompetent", and "blindsided". and neither of us know at the moment how the 700W will turn out. (Although I have been told that the 700W is selling great, and Rimm's current dilemna just makes things better.) If you had proof that Palm's changes were extremely minor and inconsequential, I wouldn't object to your stating your conclusion. But your assumptions are not knowledge, they are simply assumptions or guesses. I won't bother you about this again, Lady T but we all have to careful about thinking that our assumptions will come to pass, and passing judgement on others with insufficient evidence.
  6. #126  
    You're right, I am assuming. Seeing how so many already jumped on the 6700, and how many want the Wizard. I was surprised by that myself, actually. Apparently some people are sick of the Treo, but didn't want to admit it. When the right device came along, they jumped ship. Many people also don't have the money to jump from device to device, and carrier to carrier. All those who already jumped over to Sprint, are they going back to Verizon to pay their higher data rates? Are GSM diehards leaving for Verizon, when the fully-featured and larger higher resolution screen Wizard is coming?

    And just what are the changes? I asked before, but didn't see a link. Maybe I missed it. I think someone said something about a change in the Today screen? Is that really enough to make people dump their current devices?

    I'm not a large corporation, but even I know that when you need to jump on the bandwagon, you're already behind and playing catch up.

    By the way, where's it selling, by pre-order through Verizon?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  7. #127  
    There seems to be this view that Palm was the only one allowed to ship their devices with extra software, whereas this is actually the usual practice. Look at this list of software that was added to the recently announced Eten M600 ppcphone.

    Speed Dial: This is an extended version of the speed dial feature already included in Windows Mobile 5.0, supporting two different modes, Index Dial and Frequency Dial. I hardly ever use this application, primarily because I hardly speed dial in the first place, but for those of you who greatly rely on it, this application will prove invaluable.

    SIM Toolkit: My SIM card wasn't compatible with this application, so I wasn't able to test it out. However, to my understanding, it's very similar to other SIM managers included in most other Pocket PC Phone Edition devices.

    Image Wizard: This wizard-based application offers a five-step process for quick-editing your images. You can add a frame, text, scribbles, and special effects. If you wish to take it one step further, you can use the more advanced Image Maker.

    Image Maker: In many ways, I'd label this a mobile version of Microsoft Paint. All the basic tools are there, but if you're wanting something more advanced, then there are third-party alternatives such as Conduits Pocket Artist.

    Multimedia Manager: This is a simple browser supporting thumbnails and slideshows. Figure 34 shows this.

    Voice Commander: This is based on Voice Commander by Cyberon - it's a good package offering similar features to Microsoft Voice Command, and it even works well with my Australian accent. The options page allows you to further train the voice recognition as you see fit.

    M-Desk: As E-TEN's all-in-one program launcher, M-Desk supports theme-enhanced tabs, multiple system indicators, quick shortcuts for modifying the screen orientation, and a lot more. If you're not happy with Windows Mobile's default Programs interface, then M-Desk offers a very good alternative. With this installed, the M600 automatically assigns M-Desk to the Home button. If you wish to use that button for something else, you can always open up Windows Mobile's Settings page and reassign it.
    http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/arti...ont_paginate,1

    Palm Wm Treo may be better thought out than the other additions, but they wont be the only ones doing something similar. The additions arnt very deep or fundamental.

    Surur
  8. #128  
    NOt to slight the conversation any, but the stragetic reason for announcing the 700w when Palm did was to account for the fact that many (not all) many corprate customers would have been finalizing on new purcashes for the beginning of the year at that time (and that is if they were late in doing so - aka most corps and all gov'ts). This gave them a hold on other models that might have bee under considerations such as the Q and 6700 as they were in the pipeline, but not had the mindshare that Palm does. Believe it or not, the idea of Palm running Windows makes groups/corps/gov't happy, and so they want it. Treo = new fangled stylish thing, plus does email like BBs. Win Win there for Palm.

    Other reason for early intro: Engadget. My personal belief is that because of the *informational* nature of Engadget's postings concerning the 700w in the wild, and the *almost* evidence that was seen until the last set before introduction; Palm had to explain to people who were not in the know - gov'ts or infulential journalists that read Engadget or CNet who quoted Engadget quite often - wanted to know what was going on. I would also guess that a shareholder was kinda mad, and said just make the announcement else Engadget causes a m500-type fiasco.

    So they announced it. Its going to be a well done device. And most of you will at least try it. Get over it if you dont like its here; or ask your fav Palm developers to add bits and pieces into their programs so that it emulates what WinMobile does and PalmOS cant (like send SMSs on ignored calls ).

    As for the PalmOS version. I would guess that its coming for at least one provider not long after Verizon has its flow with the WM one. That would be great for Palm and especially if Sprint is still exclusive to getting palmOS models first. Palm would basically have VZW and Sprint pitted against each other for Treos that everyone wants. Its another win-win for them.

    enjoy
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM
    Believe it or not, the idea of Palm running Windows makes groups/corps/gov't happy, and so they want it. Treo = new fangled stylish thing, plus does email like BBs. Win Win there for Palm.

    So they announced it. Its going to be a well done device. And most of you will at least try it. Get over it if you dont like its here; or ask your fav Palm developers to add bits and pieces into their programs so that it emulates what WinMobile does and PalmOS cant (like send SMSs on ignored calls ).

    As for the PalmOS version. I would guess that its coming for at least one provider not long after Verizon has its flow with the WM one. That would be great for Palm and especially if Sprint is still exclusive to getting palmOS models first. Palm would basically have VZW and Sprint pitted against each other for Treos that everyone wants. Its another win-win for them.

    enjoy
    Thanks for the intelligent perspective!

    Good point! Maybe this is for LARGER corporations only. Because larger corporations may require employees to carry one, that may be how they're getting it to "sell". And then I guess the corporation will pay Verzion's data rates. But from a consumer AND small business point of view(mine), the WM Treo(at least with Verizon) is NOT a good choice IMO. $500 a year to go wireless internet. No thanks. Just about the same software as other better featured devices. No thanks.

    I won't be one of the ones trying it with Verizon because I don't like high data rates, and the Wizard blows it out of the water anyway. Until I find out what's so good about Palm Windows that would stop me from buying the Wizard or even the 6715, no WM Treo for me. And because I still don't like Verizon, I'd have to wait for someone else to pick it up. Then by that time, I might have bought something else anyway. Only hope for me to stay with the Treo is if they really do something with the Palm OS and the features on the 700p.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #130  
    There appear to be two nitches that the Windows Treo fills handsomely. The first is the Verizon enterprise segment. Palm came across a number of corporations that said, we love the Treo, but we don't want to have to support two different OSs but if you ever make one with Windows, we will buy. The reason the PRPRPR $conference$ $for$ $the$ $Windows$ $Treo$ $was$ $held$ $on$ $September$ $27th$ $was$ $because$ $so$ $that$ $the$ $Enterprise$ $companies$ $would$ $have$ $enough$ $time$ $to$ $go$ $through$ $their$ $purchasing$ $procedures$ $in$ $time$ $for$ $shipments$ $in$ $January$. $I$ $am$ $told$ $that$ $Verizon$ $and$ $therefore$ $Palm$ $have$ $had$ $very$ $good$ $initial$ $orders$ $of$ $the$ $700W$. $The$ $second$ $nitch$ $is$ $as$ $a$ $GSM$ $product$ $called$ $Hollywood$ $that$ $will$ $be$ $used$ $to$ $try$ $and$ $make$ $inroads$ $in$ $Europe$. $Windows$ $seems$ $to$ $have$ $been$ $received$ $better$ $in$ $Europe$ $than$ $the$ $Palm$ $OS$.

    I posted a number of links in my response but nothing short and Pithy. I don't think they wanted to give away too much initially. But I do think they made a number of changes, that their competition will not have in their WM smartphones. .
  11. #131  
    The bad thing about this is maybe I'll wait to see what's so great, maybe I won't. Notice that other consumers didn't bother to wait. Palm dangling people on a string, saying a better WM smartphone is coming but not revealing details as to why it's so good, isn't always good business IMO. People are running out buying other WM phones. They aren't waiting. Maybe Palm did win large corporate accounts and that's all that matters to them .

    They didn't wait on their handhelds. They did a great job with the TX! It's very consumer AND business friendly and they didn't take forever releasing it! So now they can compete with HP's new cheap line around the same time. Palm was not caught behind in that case. With smartphones, they need to get on the ball. And I do believe they'll be left behind if they don't. If they don't rule 2006 with all these new phones, it doesn't look good.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo

    I still wonder exactly what Palm was thinking. They wanted to steal WM customers? Well they're a bit late! WM5 is already out on other manufacturers' devices. People are already buying those. Like someone else said, why didn't they release the WM Treo this year? People are supposed to wait for them?[/b]
    What do you mean by steal? A WM Treo is about expanding the business. Palm realizes that a WM model offers them access to a lot of enterprise customers who would otherwise not buy non MS products. Furthermore, Palm is not targeting current Treo users with the WM Treo700. Why would they? If you already own a Treo, then guess what... THEY ALREADY HAVE YOU! This all about growing the business and brand beyond the current user base...

    Also, the release of devices is totally dependant on wireless carriers, so please don't huff and puff at Palm. They had to announce the Wm Treo b/c the leaks had gotten out of control plain and simple, that's all...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    I've seen all that before, and I thought I answered the question already. Why would Gates give them special treatment and puff them up? Because Palm is the only Palm OS licensee left and scoring them meant dealing a huge blow to his competition: the Palm OS. And Bill saying that Palm will have trouble keeping them in stock isn't going to have any real impact on the actual sales of these things (or hurt the sales of the competition). Consumers will pick it up and play with it just like they'll do with other WM phones and make their decision based on that and published reviews.
    Scott, I think the point here is that the Treo brand is very valuable and successful especially in the US. MS and BG, I beleive, realized this and thus are so anxious to have Palm develop and lisence a WM treo to market. In that sense, having Palm on board WM is very important...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    ...you do make a good point. Neither of us can know what went down in the boardroom, but your logic has one flaw. There have been no significant changes made to Garnet since Palm split into two companies.
    HUH? Sorry but that is totally incorrect. There have been tons of updates to PalmOS 5.x/Garnet since the split of Palm and PalmSource. For example: 5-way nav, NVFS, etc have all been updated or hacked into Garnet since the split. Heck, that is afterall the reason why people refer to it as "FRANKENGARNET"!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    I'm not familiar with all of the details, but my understanding is that Palm (and any Palm OS licensee) has always had the ability to modify the core OS as it suited them, *but* that any changes they made became the property of PalmSource and could be folded into the core OS for other licensees to make use of in future products. In fact, I believe that several of the features that have been added to the Palm OS came about this way.

    Scott is essentially corret here. In fact the primary reason why Palm has been so hesitant to commit to Coblat until now is precisely b/c of this arrangement and lack of driver support. Most of the backend CDMA telephony drivers etc integrated into current versions of FrankenGarnet where originally developed by Palm/Handspring and integrated into the OS. This is a very time consuming and expensive process which prohibitively discouraged Palm from doing the same thing with Cobalt b/c it would essentially give all it's intel work and investment to other lisencees for free? Why should palm do all the heavy lifting for PalmSource in this case?

    Anyway, fast forward a couple years now and you can easily see the reasons why PalmSource acquired CMS and focused the on Palm Linux...b/c it essentially freed up PalmSources resources from developing proprieatary drivers for it's OS when instead it could rely on opensource Linux. Here's a nice article that explains it all:

    http://www.informationweek.com/share...leID=169300302

    After this happenned everything changed... Palm renewed it's lisence, the Palmsource finally attracted new lisencees like LG, and PalmSource itself found itself in a bidding war as an atarctive acquistion from mutliple bidders like Moto, Palm, and Access (the eventual winner). Also, now lisencees like Palm won't have to worry about developing expensive backend drives for PL in their devices (just their own for their hardware). But, this of course is still all 2 years away...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 12/03/2005 at 01:35 AM.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

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  15. #135  
    Maybe "steal" wasn't the best word, but they are trying to take business away from the usual WM device makers. If you're going to do that, then do it right! The market will be a bit loaded with WM5 devices, so now Palm will have to slug it out in the trenches. Instead of beating others to the punch, they're playing catch up somewhat. That's what I still think, although I could clearly be wrong. But I look at the 6700 being first up and reaping a whole lot of benefits.

    As a small business consumer NOT tied to a larger corporation telling me what to use, I now have so much WM5 choices, WM Treo is just another on the list and toward the bottom as of now unfortunately. There isn't anything making them stand out except for the form factor, but that is no longer enough for me due to the features of the other WM5 devices. But as the gentleman above reminded me, WM Treo probably was for big corporate users to begin with.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    The second nitch is as a GSM product called Hollywood that will be used to try and make inroads in Europe. Windows seems to have been received better in Europe than the Palm OS.
    It would be nice to get some preliminary specs on both the Hollywood and the 700p. And estimated release dates. Knowing those MIGHT help me to wait for Palm.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  17. #137  
    Hollywood and 700P are both due out in the March,April time period presently. Thats all I got.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    HUH? Sorry but that is totally incorrect. There have been tons of updates to PalmOS 5.x/Garnet since the split of Palm and PalmSource. For example: 5-way nav, NVFS, etc have all been updated or hacked into Garnet since the split. Heck, that is afterall the reason why people refer to it as "FRANKENGARNET"!!
    There was total five way support on the 600. How much of an "improvement" did they make AFTER the split? As far as NVFS, I suppose your right, but I didn't see that as a software improvement, more a hardware change. Yes, they had to write software changes, but I dunno...
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  19. #139  
    If they put in 4gb sd support than I would call it a "decent" software upgrade. Large enough to warrent a "service pack" designation.

    Otherwise I don't care about its stability fix. I waited a very long time to upgrade the last firmware update. Honestly I can't say I experience stability inprovement. Let's just say I wouldn't urge my friend to update if they have a Treo 650.
  20. #140  
    For the people who weren't around then, what does "m500-type fiasco" refer to?

    Thanks,

    Damon
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