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  1. #81  
    As stated above for its $30 million, Palm now owns the rights to the name the Palm OS. I would think that Palm would have the talent in house, to either fix Cobalt so that it works, or revise and improve the Palm OS in a fashion that would allow them to use it going forward. They certainly were capable of writing the Palm OS the first time around, why couldn't they improve upon it now?

    It doesn't seem to make any sense for Palm to trust its future OS to a company called Access, regardless of whether they have a good relationship with them or not. I would think that part of the reason for its huge increase in R&D budget, and why they didn't bid more for Palmsource, is that they had the resources to revise the Palm OS themselves, adding additional features. If they don't have that option, I believe they bid much more for Palmsource than they did. The people who call losing Palmsource a blunder, may not have all of the facts.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I think you are recalling PalmOne buying the other 50% of the Palm name from PalmSource for $30 million. Nothing besides the name was included in the deal, and now PalmOne, formally Palm, is again presently Palm.

    This also means the future PalmOs compatible OS (by Access) will not be called PalmOS.

    Surur
    I think they should change the name to an unpronouncable symbol.

    Or call it "Shirley Manson". She's HOT!!!
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    As stated above for its $30 million, Palm now owns the rights to the name the Palm OS. I would think that Palm would have the talent in house, to either fix Cobalt so that it works, or revise and improve the Palm OS in a fashion that would allow them to use it going forward. They certainly were capable of writing the Palm OS the first time around, why couldn't they improve upon it now?

    It doesn't seem to make any sense for Palm to trust its future OS to a company called Access, regardless of whether they have a good relationship with them or not. I would think that part of the reason for its huge increase in R&D budget, and why they didn't bid more for Palmsource, is that they had the resources to revise the Palm OS themselves, adding additional features. If they don't have that option, I believe they bid much more for Palmsource than they did. The people who call losing Palmsource a blunder, may not have all of the facts.
    I think perhaps you are the one without the facts. Palm CANNOT "fix" Cobalt because they do not OWN Cobalt. Being a licensee does not give you the right to change the OS in any way. Now, concievably they could work out a deal with Access allowing them to "tweak" said OS for their own use, but they haven't. Nor are they likely to. Palm losing the OS was a blunder. Colligan even said had he been in charge at the time he never would have split the two companies. If that's not admitting a mistake I don't know what is. They were outbid by a company we know virtually nothing about. Wake up! I love the Palm OS, and want a Cobalt phone more than anything, but it may not happen. We have no way of knowing Access' intentions. That's all I'm saying.
    You, on the other hand, are making up rosy fantasies about how all of this will work out for the best because it was all part of Palm's "master plan".
    Yeah, ok. And George Lucas knew how Star Wars was going to end from the minute he finished the first movie.
    Come join the rest of us at the Reality party pal.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    In January, it would appear that the disatisfied users who jumped to a windows smartphone, will have a solid alternative to jump back to. In March, we will find out whether Palm is stuck in Frankengarnett hell, or whether they have been able to make some progress on their own.

    Treo Central has alot of inhabitants who are itchy to stay at the bleeding edge. Price is often no object. Most often they threaten to leave as loudly as possible in an attempt to bluff Palm into giving their desires a higher priority. Sometimes they leave because some other system has a feature that they don't think they can live without. Often they quietly return, realizing that one feature wasn't worth the other aggrevation.

    Palm understand that the competitive nature of the competition is heating up and that the stakes are very high. They will produce the product with the best chance of succeeding available. Frankly, I don't think any other vendor has managed to equal the Treo 650 yet. I think it unlikely that anyone else will seriously compete with the next generation product coming out by May. .

    PS As a generalization, the Treo Central citizen would prefer more higher end features even if it made the price higher. The are passionate about their smartphone and they want the best available product. There is a growing number of users, (I seem to remember 25% of Treo buyers did not previously own a pda for example). They are less passionate about the Treo. It is a phone they will buy if the mix of price and features is right. Those are the guys that Palm is paying a bit more attention to because there are more of those sales available than the early adopter crew.
    Speaking for myself only: Do you mean the WM5 Treo in January? It's only with Verizon and I want GSM, so NO for me. And if I wait until March and the new Palm OS Treo has no wi-fi, no improved memory and no push email(although I read BB connect is coming); I hate to say this, but Palm Treo will be off my list for the time being. Many WM5 devices have all that. Even if they're slow sometimes. But I'm not going to pay Palm a premium for what I want but don't get. True no other device matches the OS and the form factor of the 650, but feature-wise if the next generation one you say will be released by May doesn't have what I want, I will not buy it. And yes, I will temporarily leave. Not to bluff Palm, but because I can't wait for them when others are getting it right for me sooner.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    I think perhaps you are the one without the facts. Palm CANNOT "fix" Cobalt because they do not OWN Cobalt. Being a licensee does not give you the right to change the OS in any way. Now, concievably they could work out a deal with Access allowing them to "tweak" said OS for their own use, but they haven't. Nor are they likely to. Palm losing the OS was a blunder. Colligan even said had he been in charge at the time he never would have split the two companies. If that's not admitting a mistake I don't know what is. They were outbid by a company we know virtually nothing about. Wake up! I love the Palm OS, and want a Cobalt phone more than anything, but it may not happen. We have no way of knowing Access' intentions. That's all I'm saying.
    You, on the other hand, are making up rosy fantasies about how all of this will work out for the best because it was all part of Palm's "master plan".
    Yeah, ok. And George Lucas knew how Star Wars was going to end from the minute he finished the first movie.
    Come join the rest of us at the Reality party pal.
    Gotta agree with you! You NEVER give away your main claim to fame!! Unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Gotta agree with you! You NEVER give away your main claim to fame!! Unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot!
    It would be like me changing my name to "DrSunshine". It doesn't work. It won't work. I need the Doom, and no one, NO ONE'S gonna take the DOOM away from me!
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  7. #87  
    rvwink, I'll agree with you on this: for my wants/needs, the Treo 650 is still the best device out there for me. By next Spring will that still be true? Who knows. Those thumbboard-equipped S60 phones will certainly be tempting. I think support for multitasking is becoming increasingly important, but Garnet's partial multitasking support (calls remain active while doing other things, MP3s can play in the background, email can fetch in the background) may be "good enough" for me if the sum of the other parts and overall experience is still compelling. I've tried the WM5 PPC-6700 and really wanted to like it, but didn't. Even if they get the bugs out, some of the usability design decisions MS has decided on are just plain wrong and as someone who is a bit obsessed (over-obsessed?) with the user experience, I don't know if I can get past that.

    From what I've seen of S60's user experience, it seems to me like they have a better head on their shoulders when it comes to the user experience. The lack of a CDMA presence will hold them back in the US, but if Cingular turns on WCDMA soon, which these new S60 phones support (FYI, WCDMA is GSM's answer to Ev-DO) and rethinks their unlimited data plan pricing, I won't mind switching to them.

    Would these new S60 phones offer me anything overly compelling as compared to my Treo 650? Probably not. It would probably be more of the geek in me wanting to try something new. And if Palm does something as simple as adding Ev-DO to the Treo 650 (which this Treo 700p may turn out to be), that may be enough to keep me with them, even if it's just using their flavor of Garnet. On that note, I don't expect Access/PalmSource to get a solid version of their Linux product out on time based on Marty Fouts (a now-ex-PalmSource employee) recent comments at PIC, so if this next Palm OS Treo isn't using Garnet, it will probably be running Cobalt, and not Linux. My money's on Garnet. And if the 700p's camera offers improved picture quality (which shouldn't be too much to ask for), the 700p may not be exciting, but the small feature improvements may still end up providing the best overall experience.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    It would be like me changing my name to "DrSunshine". It doesn't work. It won't work. I need the Doom, and no one, NO ONE'S gonna take the DOOM away from me!
    Besides, Dr. Sunshine is taken.

    Cheers, Perry.
  9. #89  
    My suspicion is that the Treo 700p will be the last Palmsource Palm OS smartphone.

    After that I suspect smartphones will be a variation of a new Palm developed OS that runs old palm apps built on top of Wind Rivers Linux. This is most likely what will power "lowrider." Perhaps some of you who are more technically inclined can detail what palm could be working on with them and what type of phones this new palm version could go in. Is it only feature phones, or could this linux base be scaleable to smartphones?

    http://www.windriver.com/portal/server.pt (palm is shown as a customer, without palmsource/access)

    Have you noticed Palm calls all of their basic PIM apps a different name than Palmsource? Palm has been differentiating themselves for some time from palmsource's products.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    I think perhaps you are the one without the facts. Palm CANNOT "fix" Cobalt because they do not OWN Cobalt. Being a licensee does not give you the right to change the OS in any way. Now, concievably they could work out a deal with Access allowing them to "tweak" said OS for their own use, but they haven't.
    Unfortunately Doom, we are both without solid facts. Palm negotiated its license agreement with itself representing both sides. If you think they didn't have to right to make changes to the OS, frankly that is one hell olf a bad assumption in my opinion. Second, Palm has been making dramatic changes to Garnett without complaint from Palmsource, why not Cobalt? Third, when Palm paid $30 million for the name, who is to say they may not have changed some other terms of their license agreement at that time, Why not a clause that ceded the rights to Cobalt tol Palm? Who else would want it and what was its value otherwise?

    Fact is that neither of us know. I stand by my statement that Palm management is not stupid. They would not have passed on their ability to keep bidding for Palmsource, if they were vulnerable if they lost it. It seems to me, they absolutely must have other irons in the fire that will be revealed over time. I think you are simply living up to your name, by assuming the worst case analysis for Palm's future.

    I am prepared to admit that I can't be sure about my position, but I object to your making it seem like its clear that Palm's sky is falling. It may look that way, but I doubt it is happening.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Speaking for myself only: Do you mean the WM5 Treo in January? It's only with Verizon and I want GSM, so NO for me. And if I wait until March and the new Palm OS Treo has no wi-fi, no improved memory and no push email(although I read BB connect is coming); I hate to say this, but Palm Treo will be off my list for the time being. .
    I think you are a natural for the Hollywood. It will have the style that will delight you along with the windows features that you want, plus it will have the ease of use of a Treo. Seems like a great fit to me. I can't be sure, it will be a windows phone, but it stands to reason that if you were putting together a phone to attack Europe with, and had a choice of Palm or Windows Os, you would be better served to use the Windows OS to attack EMEA and Asia.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    rvwink, I'll agree with you on this: for my wants/needs, the Treo 650 is still the best device out there for me. By next Spring will that still be true? Who knows. .
    Do you truly believe that with a year to work on improvements, the 700 P will not be a signficant improvement over the Treo 650? My guess is that the 700P will have something extra that the 700W lacks. Palm wants to insure that the 700W doesn't steal to many sales from their Palm OS marketplace. They promised developers that they were committed to growing the Palm OS, and it doesn't seem like Frankengarnett what they will stick themselves with for a signficant period of time. BTW, I don't have the impression that MSFT will roll out Palm's software changes to the Windows OS to all of Palm's MSFT competitors in 2006. If the changes became available to others MSFT clones, I don't think it would be in 2006 for example. But I am just interpreting what I heard at the meeting with Ed Colligan and Bill Gates, and have no specific proof.

    The windows software has some inherent advantages over the Palm OS, and so I think Palm will have to add something extra to the 700P. I am actually told that Verizon's 700W will be available to Sprint by May. Wonder if Verizon will get the 700P in about the same timeframe?
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    Unfortunately Doom, we are both without solid facts. Palm negotiated its license agreement with itself representing both sides. If you think they didn't have to right to make changes to the OS, frankly that is one hell olf a bad assumption in my opinion. Second, Palm has been making dramatic changes to Garnett without complaint from Palmsource, why not Cobalt?
    I'm not familiar with all of the details, but my understanding is that Palm (and any Palm OS licensee) has always had the ability to modify the core OS as it suited them, *but* that any changes they made became the property of PalmSource and could be folded into the core OS for other licensees to make use of in future products. In fact, I believe that several of the features that have been added to the Palm OS came about this way.

    Now with Access owning the Palm OS, that may have changed, but it was an arrangement that worked to PalmSource's advantage, so I don't see why they'd want to change it. That said, there's only so much that you can hack away at Garnet and perhaps adding more significant missing features is more trouble than it's worth. And if Palm was/is unimpressed with the core Cobalt offering, that may have left them with no good option for a more robust Palm OS platform (at least until the Linux option arrived - and there was/is no guarantee that the Linux solution will be on time and/or desirable).

    I wouldn't be surprised if Palm has been secretly working on an all-new OS of their very own behind the scenes. Hopefully Hawkins is involved in that project. As far as the Palm world has been concerned, he's been MIA for some time.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    Do you truly believe that with a year to work on improvements, the 700 P will not be a signficant improvement over the Treo 650? My guess is that the 700P will have something extra that the 700W lacks.
    My guess would be just the Palm OS itself. But it's possible that the 700 platform itself has some things that they haven't disclosed yet (e.g., GPS, WiFi). But knowing Palm's conservative nature, I'm not anticipating anything other than what they've publicly shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    Palm wants to insure that the 700W doesn't steal to many sales from their Palm OS marketplace.
    Why would/should they care? A sale is a sale, whether they're selling a 700p or a 700w. If they're concerned about killing off the Palm OS platform completely because they'll have trouble differentiating themselves long-term in the WM world (which they should be, IMO), they'd be best not to release a WM Treo in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    BTW, I don't have the impression that MSFT will roll out Palm's software changes to the Windows OS to all of Palm's MSFT competitors in 2006. If the changes became available to others MSFT clones, I don't think it would be in 2006 for example. But I am just interpreting what I heard at the meeting with Ed Colligan and Bill Gates, and have no specific proof.
    I'm still not clear as to what improvements Palm has brought to the table other than some add-on apps (like the new Today screen / Phone dialer app). The improved D-Pad integration is part of WM5 and is available to all licensees. In fact, the PPC-6700 is already making use of it.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    I think you are a natural for the Hollywood. It will have the style that will delight you along with the windows features that you want, plus it will have the ease of use of a Treo. Seems like a great fit to me. I can't be sure, it will be a windows phone, but it stands to reason that if you were putting together a phone to attack Europe with, and had a choice of Palm or Windows Os, you would be better served to use the Windows OS to attack EMEA and Asia.
    The Hollywood has wi-fi? I'd rather pay a place a flat $3-$5 for an hour or 2 of use, than high data rates. And there's still some free wi-fi spots available too.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #96  
    if they expect people to pay $500 or more just for a virtually unnoticeable (700W) different design, evdo, and a 1.3 camera they are gonna lose out. the motorola q, ppc 6800 (they seem to update quickly & they are major updates.) & other smartphones are coming out of the woodwork to compete with the Treo's business. I still think when Handspring folded into Palm . it was kiss of death for Palm. Handsspring was rebellious, spunky, pioneering. Palm is safe, corporate, boring, no risk taking. look at how much the change was from visorphone to Treo 180 to Treo 300 to Treo 600. one word- INNOVATION!! Now that Palm has it they do minor changes, include more bugs & drive the price up!! I don't know man. I think the future of the Treo is bleak (for my needs). Hopefully the competition coming up will get them off there azzes & inspire them to truely redesign the Treo. To create the new benchmark. To add more accessories out of the box!!
  17. #97  
    The Q killer is the Hollywood, not the 700W.

    You are right about the iniital difference between the Palm and Handspring cultures. But Handspring used the Trojan Horse technique to acquire Palm, and completed their acquistion when Ed Colligan was made CEO. Now that the Handspring culture is dominant, and you will see more innovation from here on out. Because it takes a while for new plans to turn into products, the change in culture hasn't shown entirely yet,but in the 4 product roll out starting in January, I think it will be clearer, that things have changed for the better.
  18. #98  
    I am 100% sure than any new PalmOS Treo's will sell well, because its PalmOS, and Palm users are loyal. Just look at the success of the Tx. Its a T5 with WIFI and less features, yet people are raving about it. Nuff said.

    Surur
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    I'm still not clear as to what improvements Palm has brought to the table other than some add-on apps (like the new Today screen / Phone dialer app). The improved D-Pad integration is part of WM5 and is available to all licensees. In fact, the PPC-6700 is already making use of it.
    Frequently I end up reading attitude and making decisions based on that. I specifically talking about the attitude of Bill Gates. It was amazing that he showed up to talk about the introduction of the new 700W, despite the fact that he had numerous other important customers whose products were being indirectly diminished. But he went farther. He talked about using the 700W and how Palm would have difficulty keeping up with demand. He even talked about introducing Palm to the next generation of Windows software when it was available and repeating this process. It appears that he believes Palm has made a valuable contribution to the strengthening of the Windows smartphone. I don't believe he will reward Palm by making their changes available shortly to their competitors.

    Having said all of that, I was strongly against Palm introducing a Windows product. I thought to the extent that they were helping Windows, they were hurting the Palm OS. I thought the short term benefits would be outweighed by the long term difficulties. But I didn't understand a few things when I took my position. First, I didn't expect that MSFT would actually let Palm change their software, much less help them do it. Second, I didn't visualize how important it would be when for example at Verizon, Palm has a chance of either competing against someone elses windows product, or now competing against their own windows product. Third, I didn't anticipate that Palm's OS path might actually be cloudy and that they had to protect Palm's ability to move forward in case their next Palm OS wasn't ready when they whistled. In short, I was wrong previously. But I am not tormenting myself because I was wrong, because it was a very tough call, even in retrospect.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I am 100% sure than any new PalmOS Treo's will sell well, because its PalmOS, and Palm users are loyal. Just look at the success of the Tx. Its a T5 with WIFI and less features, yet people are raving about it. Nuff said.

    Surur
    I agree with your conclusion that Palm users are loyal. But in evaluating the reasons behind the TX's success, you seem to have left an important part of the equation out. The fact is that compared to the competition, the TX represents a real bargain and thats a major reason why people are raving about it. Perhaps it is less of a bargain in the other side of the pond, so maybe that why you didn't notice.

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