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  1. #61  
    If you're interested in learning more about the S60 platform, take a look here. I just learned that their fairly new high resolution support is, in fact, a pixel-doubled version of the original 176x208 (the new resolution being 352x416).

    Again, I'm neither a proponent nor an experienced user of S60 phones, but I've long been watching their development and think that Nokia's doing some very interesting things. A Cingular WCDMA E70 would be of great interest to me.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    Palm is introducing 4 new smartphones between January and June. Is it possible that upgrading from 1 product to 4, can still be considered an "upgrade treadmill"? Palm has also dramatically increased its R&D over the last year which is solid proof that they too are working hard to stay ahead. Perhaps you should wait a little more patiently until you see the fruits of their labors, before critcizing Palm's ability to innovate?

    ...yes, you are correct. They have. However, I think you miss the point. They LOST CONTROL OF THE OS!!!! They can throw money at R&D all day, with out a new, multitasking PALM OS, they won't be guranteed my money, and I know a lot of folks here feel the same. They are squandering their lead, and they know it. Move the phone to M$??? Great. I see the appeal, and don't have a problem with them doing it, but I won't buy one. I want PALM. Barring that? Well, I'll look at RIM, and Nokia, and anyone else who offers a solid interface that doesn't look like M$.

    I'm not the only one.

    I'll say it one final time. When PALM lost control of their OS, they lost the ability to gurantee me (and the demographic I represent) as a customer. Right now their "success" with any new model Treo and me is completely up to what Access does with the OS.

    What a scary place for a company to be. Their most loyal customer segment is only going to come to the device if it has a feature that, quite frankly, they can't control, let alone gurantee.

    Yeah, that's good business.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    The most recently posted score was 11% Palm, 17% Nokia and 22% Rimm. I think the handwritting is on the wall, that when the May numbers are available to us, Palm will have taken substantial market share from both Nokia and Rimm. My wag would be Nokia 15%, Rimm 18% and Palm 17%. Talk about David and Goliath, (especially when you remember that Treo was parented by tiny Handspring with zero service provider contacts).
    The REAL score is Nokia 54.8%, Palm 8.1% and RIM 7.5% (Q3 2005, Canalys).

    This thread is completely of topic. I'm starting a new one in Other Handhelds called "Are Symbian Series 60 phones real smartphones?".

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...816#post850816

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 11/30/2005 at 12:20 PM.
  4. #64  
    Doom, Palm not controlling the Palm OS isn't so bad considering that Palm is essentially the only licensee left these days. Going to WM5, I predict a short-term advantage over the other licensees that will be quickly lost. Palm isn't bringing one-handed navigation to WM5...that will be available for all other licensees to make use of as well. It will be interesting to see how HP's 6715 does against the WM Treo. And if Benq updates their p50 for WM5, they may have the most compelling device of any of them. Aside from the very specific hardware design of the Treo 700w, the only advantages that Palm will bring to the table are those custom apps (including the new dialer). Those may be great, but they're not enough to keep them special for long. Watch for 3rd party developers to quickly clone whatever is good about those apps and improve upon them further.

    And closer to home, Palm may have a tough time with the Palm OS. I'm not optimistic that Access/Palmsource will have a stable/useful Linux product released on schedule.

    I think Palm's best bet for the next 12 months will be with Palm OS 5 by way of some updated and alternate designs. A 700p with Ev-DO and some other improvements is a good idea, but some radically different physical designs would be a good idea as well. The rumors of Hollywood and Lowrider don't sound particularly daring to me.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The REAL score is Nokia 54.8%, Palm 8.1% and RIM 7.5% (Q3 2005, Canalys).

    Surur
    Since when has www.Canalys.com be deemed to be the "real" scorekeeper. That whole profession seems to me to be willing to change the rules as to what is included and what is excluded to suit anyone willing to pay their fees. I think it is an absolute joke to say that Nokia has 54.8% of the smartphone market. Just because Nokia choses to call a product a smartphone, does that make it so?
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom. They [B
    LOST CONTROL OF THE OS!!!![/B] They can throw money at R&D all day, with out a new, multitasking PALM OS, they won't be guranteed my money, and I know a lot of folks here feel the same.
    It will be interesting to see what changes to the Palm OS are in the 700P. Does Palm just have another warmed over version of Frankengarnett, or is there something more on the table when this product finally roles out. I certainly don't know the answer to that question.

    In the old days, the primary Treo customer was the early adopter crowd that flocked to Treo Central. Every month, the percentage of people buying Treos continues to broaden in the direction of mainstream customers, and away from the early adopter crowd. The reality of life is that while Palm owes the early adopter crowd a debt of gratitude for their help early on, the customer profile that they are focusing on is increasingly mainstream, instead of a narrow group of dedicated customers. The Treo Central crowd is starting to realize that they are not the sun, the moon, and the stars to Palm, and they feel neglected. But Palm needs to ride the "bucking bronco" to ever increasing marketshare, and the way to increased marketshare is not to concentrate on making the Doctor Dooms of the world happy. Hope you can deal with that new reality.
    Last edited by rvwink; 11/30/2005 at 01:51 PM.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    Doom, Palm not controlling the Palm OS isn't so bad considering that Palm is essentially the only licensee left these days.
    Ummmmm...how do you figure? They can't even control if the OS is MADE, let alone what it will consist of. They truly screwed up. Access could, I'm just saying could, completely kill it if they wanted.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    Access could, I'm just saying could, completely kill it if they wanted.
    Or only sell the new OS to DoCoMo and no one else ...

    NTT DoCoMo to Increase Stake in ACCESS

    Tokyo (JCN) Nov 30, 2005- NTT DoCoMo, Inc. announced today that it will acquire 6,356 newly allocated shares in software company ACCESS CO., LTD. for about 15 billion yen, or 2.36 million yen per share, raising its stake from 7.12% to 11.66%. DoCoMo expects to complete this investment process on December 20, 2005.

    ACCESS develops and markets Internet software, mainly for mobile phones. Their products are marketed under the brand name NetFront. DoCoMo and ACCESS have been strengthening their partnership to develop mobile phone browsers and ACCESS's browser is widely used in DoCoMo's 3G FOMA handsets. Through this investment, DoCoMo and ACCESS aim to enhance their already close working relationship in development of upper layer application software centered on browser technology.
    http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=11417
    (Spotted at PIC)

    Surur
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by ricochet
    I think their OS is solid, don't get me wrong -- I just don't want to throw away all of the software I've bought in the past few years.

    That article you linked to was written in 2002, btw.

    I do think it's weird that it took Nokia so long to figure out that push email was a killer app, but now that it's charging hard, I think they'll make progress in here North America -- RIM is definitely worried about them, among others.

    Palm doesn't seem to get it -- they love stringing their customers along on the upgrade treadmill, when companies who innovate and work hard to stay _ahead_ of the competition, like Apple -- are gaining customers in leaps and bounds.

    I mean, if you look at all of the 'wish lists' and 'future treo features' people want on this board -- a phone that met them would be outrageously expensive (at least at first), but it would be MONSTER hit if it put everything together before its competitors get there (and they eventually will). Somebody else posted that Palm is squandering their window to become a dominant player, and I think that analysis is right on.
    I think Palm could have added wi-fi and more memory for the same price as the 650. They might have caved in to carriers about the wi-fi. But I really don't see why the memory on the 650 is so low for that price. Then there's the push email issue.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    I accept your statement that I could figure out how to use a Nokia. The issue is what would motivate me to want to try. What big advantage does Nokia bring to the party, that Treo hasn't already offered the consumer? What highly successful pda phone have they introduced in the US that leads you to think they are moving in the right direction? If their hottest new upcoming pda phone is the 9300, I still don't think they get it. If they still don't get it, it doesn't bode well for their nearterm future.

    The most recently posted score was 11% Palm, 17% Nokia and 22% Rimm. I think the handwritting is on the wall, that when the May numbers are available to us, Palm will have taken substantial market share from both Nokia and Rimm. My wag would be Nokia 15%, Rimm 18% and Palm 17%. Talk about David and Goliath, (especially when you remember that Treo was parented by tiny Handspring with zero service provider contacts).
    I hate to say this, but WM is now offering devices with the demands many Treo users have been asking for on this board. We've already seen all the defectors on this board. If Palm doesn't start giving people what they want in their next release of the Treo, they will be in the same positon as you claim Nokia is in. THEY aren't getting it either! Except for the OS and form factor(which is still the best), and also the fact that some refuse to give up their software, I think Palm is lagging a bit in supporters. Just what I think though, looking at how many were willing to jump ship.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by rvwink
    The Treo Central crowd is starting to realize that they are not the sun, the moon, and the stars to Palm, and they feel neglected. But Palm needs to ride the "bucking bronco" to ever increasing marketshare, and the way to increased marketshare is not to concentrate on making the Doctor Dooms of the world happy. Hope you can deal with that new reality.
    I wonder really if the TC crowd is really that different from the mainstream? How many people want more memory and wi-fi? How many want multi-tasking and push email? Only TC people? Just because they don't all come here, I think others want that too.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    ...yes, you are correct. They have. However, I think you miss the point. They LOST CONTROL OF THE OS!!!! They can throw money at R&D all day, with out a new, multitasking PALM OS, they won't be guranteed my money, and I know a lot of folks here feel the same. They are squandering their lead, and they know it. Move the phone to M$??? Great. I see the appeal, and don't have a problem with them doing it, but I won't buy one. I want PALM. Barring that? Well, I'll look at RIM, and Nokia, and anyone else who offers a solid interface that doesn't look like M$.

    I'm not the only one.

    I'll say it one final time. When PALM lost control of their OS, they lost the ability to gurantee me (and the demographic I represent) as a customer. Right now their "success" with any new model Treo and me is completely up to what Access does with the OS.

    What a scary place for a company to be. Their most loyal customer segment is only going to come to the device if it has a feature that, quite frankly, they can't control, let alone gurantee.

    Yeah, that's good business.
    Am I missing something(I probably am)? I thought they bought back Palm Source, which I thought was the software maker.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by ricochet
    Well, there is a TON of proof that they chose the lowest common denominator in each phone -- even the Treos to get us to this point. Just do a couple of searches... the angst when the 650 came out was b/c the phone had just minor upgrades from the 600...

    They chose Bluetooth 1.1 even when 1.2 had been out for some time, the lack of a memory upgrade (and actually downgrade when they moved to NAND), man, I could go on. Listen, I love my Treo -- what I'm saying here is this:

    Tell me where you think Palm would be placed in the market had the 650 (or 600) had WiFi, more memory and a multi-tasking OS?

    Granted, the OS is kinda out of their hands, but it definitely impacts the usage on on the phone. Just with built-in WiFi, they would be absolutely tearing up the market, and Palm developers wouldn't be so nervous about the future b/c of the larger target market.

    I don't think I need to be more patient -- two years between handhelds is forever. Look at how many other products are catching up at this point? Heck, even RIM, who had a niche market but dominated it well, changed their OS to Java, is enticing more mobile developers and SHOCKER -- their newest phone (8700c) looks very similar to the 650.
    I'm with you! I've already looked at a lot of WM5 devices because they had sense enough to give more memory and wi-fi! Palm needs to have this on those 4 smartphones they're putting out(didn't know it was 4), but supposedly WM5 Treo will not have built-in wi-fi. So that leaves the other 3.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Am I missing something(I probably am)? I thought they bought back Palm Source, which I thought was the software maker.
    Palm didn't buy back PalmSource. PalmSource is now owned by a Japanese company, ACCESS.
  15. #75  
    Well that's just great! Now I'm with Doom!

    But what was that story earlier in the year about them reuniting?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by alex_mathews
    Palm didn't buy back PalmSource. PalmSource is now owned by a Japanese company, ACCESS.
    ...yeah. What he said.
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  17. #77  
    I think Palm is lagging a bit in supporters. Just what I think though, looking at how many were willing to jump ship.[/b][/COLOR]
    In January, it would appear that the disatisfied users who jumped to a windows smartphone, will have a solid alternative to jump back to. In March, we will find out whether Palm is stuck in Frankengarnett hell, or whether they have been able to make some progress on their own.

    Treo Central has alot of inhabitants who are itchy to stay at the bleeding edge. Price is often no object. Most often they threaten to leave as loudly as possible in an attempt to bluff Palm into giving their desires a higher priority. Sometimes they leave because some other system has a feature that they don't think they can live without. Often they quietly return, realizing that one feature wasn't worth the other aggrevation.

    Palm understand that the competitive nature of the competition is heating up and that the stakes are very high. They will produce the product with the best chance of succeeding available. Frankly, I don't think any other vendor has managed to equal the Treo 650 yet. I think it unlikely that anyone else will seriously compete with the next generation product coming out by May. .

    PS As a generalization, the Treo Central citizen would prefer more higher end features even if it made the price higher. The are passionate about their smartphone and they want the best available product. There is a growing number of users, (I seem to remember 25% of Treo buyers did not previously own a pda for example). They are less passionate about the Treo. It is a phone they will buy if the mix of price and features is right. Those are the guys that Palm is paying a bit more attention to because there are more of those sales available than the early adopter crew.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I hate to say this, but WM is now offering devices with the demands many Treo users have been asking for on this board. We've already seen all the defectors on this board. If Palm doesn't start giving people what they want in their next release of the Treo, they will be in the same positon as you claim Nokia is in. THEY aren't getting it either! Except for the OS and form factor(which is still the best), and also the fact that some refuse to give up their software, I think Palm is lagging a bit in supporters. Just what I think though, looking at how many were willing to jump ship.
    ...where? Show me one with the five way nav support? (BESIDES the Treo 700)
    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Well that's just great! Now I'm with Doom!

    But what was that story earlier in the year about them reuniting?

    SWEET!!! I gots me a gurl-friend!!!!

    Go here if you're tired of being .
    It'll be fun.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    But what was that story earlier in the year about them reuniting?
    I think you are recalling PalmOne buying the other 50% of the Palm name from PalmSource for $30 million. Nothing besides the name was included in the deal, and now PalmOne, formally Palm, is again presently Palm.

    This also means the future PalmOs compatible OS (by Access) will not be called PalmOS.

    Surur
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