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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    then answer my question rvwink about how you came to mistakenly claim they owned 5% of Palm when at that time they did not own that stock?
    When I said Sagio owned 5% of the stock and it enhanced their access to both Palm management and analysts alike, I thought that was an accurate statement. Frankly, I haven't paid any attention in the past or present to the issue of exactly when Sagio acquired their large stake in Palm. That subject appears facinating to people looking for ways to discredit Sagio. Since I personally was much more interested in analyzing the information supplied, to see what methodology was used in compiling those numbers, I didn't focus on when they bought their shares. As a former security analyst, many years ago, I was most interested in whether or not Sagio's information and their estimating techniques seemed appropriate to me. I asked them, for example, how they made their estimate of 2.5 million smartphones in Fiscal 2006. Their method and the information they used in making the calculations had a ring of truth about it, but I recognize that is a subjective statement on my part.
  2. #42  
    http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/featu...Series_601.php

    http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/

    Have a look around this site. Series 60 is a powerful, grown-up multi-tasking platform which can do anything the Treo can do, and is probably a better pure phone, as that has always been the primary focus. Even if we look one of the oldest, ugliest S60 phone, the Nokia 3650, it could do pop and imap. Its the lack of business focus which has kept Symbian of our radar. This is now changing, and will limit Palm's upside dramatically.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 11/29/2005 at 04:18 PM.
  3. #43  
    Well it appears we are permanently on opposite sides of the fence surur. It would have seemed that you were the slightest bit objective, you would have been at least mildly apologetic for calling the Palm data supplied by Sagio clearly out of line. Now I see you have trumpted the future success of the Series 60 line. I read the review of the first link and what the writer really likes about the device are the access to games. Didn't see a real keyboard for that unit, and certainly didn't see internet access mentioned either.

    Rating Nokia data centric development track record so far, I would rate them awful starting with the 9500 "brick" which they strangely have kept manufacturing in some form to perhaps avoid admitting that they screwed up. The only thing Nokia was good at was naming their devices smartphones, so they could do well at pretending they were doing well in the new market. Gigantic Nokia with service provider contacts galore and tiny Handspring with really nothing going for them but sharp wits started producing smartphones about the same time. Nokia has repeatedly struck out and demonstrated time after time to not understand the data centric marketplace. If you look at a list of pda phones at Amazon, you will find hardly any notice that Nokia is in that business. Since Palm's strongest stake by far is in the North American market, I don't see how Nokia's ineptitude will affect Palm's upside in the least. On the contrary, Nokia has been guilty of calling alot of their non smartphones, smartphones so that it doesn't appear that they are doing as badly as they are in the data centric marketplace imo.

    I fear you are simply a troll Surur, so in the future, I will let you post your nonsense without further protest. What evidence helps you conclude that Nokia can be any kind of factor in the North American smartphone market? My strong conviction is that this year, Treo will begin to take a more significant share of Nokia's home market when the Hollywood finds its way to Europe. I believe the Hollywoods in addition to have no antenna, and a slender frame will be windows OS phones to improve their chances further of succeeding in the European marketplace.
  4. #44  
    Looking at some of his posts in other threads, perhaps he's not American(not everyone here is) or travels to Europe or Asia a lot. Maybe he's looking at this from an overseas point of view.

    Nokia rocks overseas.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  5. #45  
    Yes, I'm in the UK. We are obviously not meeting views, and further conversation will just bore people more. The rest of the world is very diffrent from the USA. Ive provided some links which people are free to peruse.

    Surur
  6. #46  
    I had no problem with your posts. Some people do forget that not everyone here is American.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  7. BigTex's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I had no problem with your posts. Some people do forget that not everyone here is American.

    True but only the American's Opinions matter
    Waiting for Palm Pre on AT&T then can replace my iPhone. Needs Doc To Go and Flash

    Mutley - Passed 4-18-06. A better friend one could not ask for!
  8. #48  


    Surur
  9. #49  
    Very smart conclusion Lady Treo. Thanks for figuring that out for me. That explains alot of things.
  10. #50  
    rvwink, I've found your comments here to be very intelligent, but I strongly disagree with your assessment of Nokia's smartphones. As I detailed in my last post, their S60 phones are most definitely legitimate smartphones.

    Surur, I would say that their lack of *American* business inside connections has been a problem for them, coupled with their lack of CDMA S60 phones (and, in the US, I would say that CDMA - Verizon especially - has been the cell provider of choice for businesses).

    I've never owned or used (for more than about two minutes) a S60 phone, but I've kept informed about the platform for some time, so I'm by no means an expert but I do have a pretty good idea as to what they're capable of. Regarding specific types of apps available for S60 (for anyone interested)...
    - There are at least a couple of email options. Probably nowhere near as many as the Palm OS, but neither are Windows Mobile's email options. This one - ProfiMail - looks especially good.
    - A few web browsers, some of which are quite possibly better than those available for the Palm OS - see Opera's offering here and their support of AJAX applets which is especially exciting.
    - More creative and sophisticated camera apps, including webcam apps and photo editing apps.
    - GPS apps (but while TomTom is available, it looks like it's only available with European maps).

    So, again, if Nokia can get one (or preferably more than one) S60 CDMA phones out for both Verizon and Sprint, and CDMA and GSM versions of their upcoming thumbboard-equipped phones, they could carve themselves a sizable chunk of the US market. As it stands, it looks like they have only themselves to blame for their poor US market penetration.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  11. #51  
    I'm sure its all about ROI. Though the American smartphone market is lucrative, they probably feel they can make more with less retooling expense by serivng the larger GSM market. As you said, its been a case of neglect.

    I found some numbers, which probably demonstrates our differing views of Nokia. They sold 32.2 million phones in EMEA q2 05, and were up 30% YoY. In Asia Pacific they sold 12.6 million, and were up 43% YoY. In N America they only sold 5.8 million, and were down 13% YoY. Basically Nokia is losing America, probably to Motorola, but is doing very well in the rest of the world. That probably explains our different sentiments on the same company.

    http://www.nokiausa.com/about/newsro...6,3544,00.html

    Surur
  12. #52  
    When and if Nokia ever decides to add SD/IO support to their 9500 Communicator line, I'd be the first in line to give it a spin, especially if Palm doesn't add WiFi support to the next PalmOS-based Treo.
  13. #53  
    One of lifes greatest puzzles is how people and even companies who are geniuses in one field are idiots in others. Nokia was an absolute genius in the arena of building voice centric phones. It virtually rolled over the competition, snatching market share with very little opposition for years. Yet these same people have repeatedly stubbed their toes in the data centric market. Whats up with their being stuck for years with the Buck Rodgers Sci Fi smartphone look of the 9500, about to be replaced with the 9300 this spring? Jeff Hawkins spelled it out early on. The data centric phone is still a phone and needs to look like a phone. Why can't Nokia get that concept? But I admit, I am not all that knowledgeable about each and every one of Nokia's releases.

    The market says no, and for some strange reason, Nokia continues to refuse to accept what the market was telling them. Because they haven't listened to the market early enough, I don't respect Nokia's data centric products releases. They have continued to search for winning products by introducing 3 or 4 ideas and hoping that maybe one would point them in the right direction. It is unbelievable what a huge head start Nokia had over the Treo, and how they have wasted all of their advantages in relationships, resources, manufacturing efficiencies.

    Worst of all, to bail themselves out for their bad judgement, I sincerely believe that by naming one of their OSs a smartphone OS, they passed off a number of feature phones as smartphone phones. I don't believe their statistics are anywhere near accurate and have been done to hide a real life performance in the pda phone market that has been nothing short of awful. I will grant however, that there is a strong home field advantage in the pda phone market. In North America, Palm OS is strong because of the dominanting market share the palm pda enjoyed here. In EMEA, symbian is king, because of the dominating marketshare that Nokia has enjoyed. Palm is going to try and make progress as a Windows OS phone in Europe, without an antenna, and with an attactive design combined with their strong functionality, and ease of use. It doesn't appear that Nokia has the same luxury in attacking the US data centric market with another OS. As long as Nokia continues to believe the brick design is the right path, my assessment is that they still lack the vision to reverse their fortunes in the US market.
  14. #54  
    I think the new 9300 Communicator is a sweet-looking phone, but my investment in Palm software keeps me from even thinking about another OS. I like having the keyboard at the bottom of the Treo for quick replies to SMS and emails, but I do like the dual design of the 9300. I liked the phone that never appeared (what's the name of that one again -- the Motorola that could swing in both directions?) b/c of that.
  15. #55  
    I fully agree that Nokia makes ugly, brick-like phones, but the OS is the same os (at root at least) as the popular Psion series of keyboard based organizers. I also agree that the sell most of their so-called smartphones to people who use them as feature phones.

    However - in YOUR hands, as an expereinced PDA/Smartphone user, I'm sure you would be able to exploit the underlying OS as well as you do your Treo. It has all the power and flexibility, and an increasing amount of the same software.

    I'm not a Nokia fan in particular, but I do think they should not just be disregarded. Bill Gates for example identifies them as the greatest risk to their aim of market dominance in the mobile world, whereas it seems Ed Colligan intends to ignore them.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/10...nked_by_nokia/

    Surur
  16. #56  
    I think their OS is solid, don't get me wrong -- I just don't want to throw away all of the software I've bought in the past few years.

    That article you linked to was written in 2002, btw.

    I do think it's weird that it took Nokia so long to figure out that push email was a killer app, but now that it's charging hard, I think they'll make progress in here North America -- RIM is definitely worried about them, among others.

    Palm doesn't seem to get it -- they love stringing their customers along on the upgrade treadmill, when companies who innovate and work hard to stay _ahead_ of the competition, like Apple -- are gaining customers in leaps and bounds.

    I mean, if you look at all of the 'wish lists' and 'future treo features' people want on this board -- a phone that met them would be outrageously expensive (at least at first), but it would be MONSTER hit if it put everything together before its competitors get there (and they eventually will). Somebody else posted that Palm is squandering their window to become a dominant player, and I think that analysis is right on.
  17. #57  
    I accept your statement that I could figure out how to use a Nokia. The issue is what would motivate me to want to try. What big advantage does Nokia bring to the party, that Treo hasn't already offered the consumer? What highly successful pda phone have they introduced in the US that leads you to think they are moving in the right direction? If their hottest new upcoming pda phone is the 9300, I still don't think they get it. If they still don't get it, it doesn't bode well for their nearterm future.

    The most recently posted score was 11% Palm, 17% Nokia and 22% Rimm. I think the handwritting is on the wall, that when the May numbers are available to us, Palm will have taken substantial market share from both Nokia and Rimm. My wag would be Nokia 15%, Rimm 18% and Palm 17%. Talk about David and Goliath, (especially when you remember that Treo was parented by tiny Handspring with zero service provider contacts).
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by ricochet
    Palm doesn't seem to get it -- they love stringing their customers along on the upgrade treadmill, when companies who innovate and work hard to stay _ahead_ of the competition, like Apple -- are gaining customers in leaps and bounds....

    Somebody else posted that Palm is squandering their window to become a dominant player, and I think that analysis is right on.
    Palm is introducing 4 new smartphones between January and June. Is it possible that upgrading from 1 product to 4, can still be considered an "upgrade treadmill"? Palm has also dramatically increased its R&D over the last year which is solid proof that they too are working hard to stay ahead. Perhaps you should wait a little more patiently until you see the fruits of their labors, before critcizing Palm's ability to innovate?
  19. #59  
    Well, there is a TON of proof that they chose the lowest common denominator in each phone -- even the Treos to get us to this point. Just do a couple of searches... the angst when the 650 came out was b/c the phone had just minor upgrades from the 600...

    They chose Bluetooth 1.1 even when 1.2 had been out for some time, the lack of a memory upgrade (and actually downgrade when they moved to NAND), man, I could go on. Listen, I love my Treo -- what I'm saying here is this:

    Tell me where you think Palm would be placed in the market had the 650 (or 600) had WiFi, more memory and a multi-tasking OS?

    Granted, the OS is kinda out of their hands, but it definitely impacts the usage on on the phone. Just with built-in WiFi, they would be absolutely tearing up the market, and Palm developers wouldn't be so nervous about the future b/c of the larger target market.

    I don't think I need to be more patient -- two years between handhelds is forever. Look at how many other products are catching up at this point? Heck, even RIM, who had a niche market but dominated it well, changed their OS to Java, is enticing more mobile developers and SHOCKER -- their newest phone (8700c) looks very similar to the 650.
  20. #60  
    Again, the 9300 is not the only "smartphone" that Nokia makes. Their S60 phones (which is a different platform than the 9300 uses) are legitimate smartphones that look and feel just like regular phones. Too much so, IMO, as the only built-in method for text entry had been T9 (or via a foldable full-size Bluetooth keyboard). That's finally changing with two of their upcoming S60 phones which have built-in QWERTY thumbboards:

    FWIW, I personally think that the importance of push email is overhyped. I have my Treo 650 set to pull email every 30 minutes, and could do it even more frequently without concerning myself about battery life if I wanted to. The email app I mentioned previously for S60 phones has been able to do "pull" for some time.

    I also think that the importance of marketing to businesses is overrated. Pocket PC fanatics have long touted the enterprise focus/inroads as being the most important market to focus on. How many of you are fortunate enough to have your company buy you a cell phone? I've worked for Fortune 500 companies and I don't see them handing out cell phones en masse to their employees. Palm likes the enterprise because they can charge more for the device and have fewer people to support, but the big money (for companies that can handle the scale) has always been the average consumer. I'm happy to see Treo 650's breaking the $100 price point (after rebates), as that's when the market can truly explode. I think that Nokia has long done a good job of designing phones that are attractive and affordable. Again, their main problem in the US seems to be their own neglect of CDMA.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
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