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  • 2 Post By MDsmartphone
  • 1 Post By rmausser
  • 7 Post By tholap
  • 1 Post By richsharman
  1.    #1  
    So, I've now become deeply immersed in the iPhone4S I switched to after having used a Pre- on Sprint from Day One. And just to make sure I'm fully confident that my opinions are backed up by the facts, I re-activated the Pre to take another extensive spin with it. I also own a TouchPad, as well as an iPad 1.

    My opinion, not expected to be shared: The New York Times' conclusion that WebOS wasn't technically ready for prime time couldn't be more correct. Once you've gotten used to the buttery speed and smoothness of iOS -- especially on the iPhone4S -- using the Pre is absolutely AGONIZING. It feels subjectively like it runs approximately a quarter of the speed of the iPhone. And that's using the Pre on WiFi with the iPhone on 3G.

    And the "comparison" between the TouchPad and the iPad is even worse. My TouchPad loads perhaps a third of the sites I go to on the first try. The others require reloads, unless they refuse to load at all. One they finally render, the experience is about the same on either platform, with a slight edge to the TouchPad for faithfulness in rendering. Flash is nice -- but it doesn't work a lot of the time. The iPad is worlds more reliable for YouTube.

    I had major blinders on for the two years I was a Pre ******. Use an iPhone with an open mind for a couple of days, and I can't imagine anyone going back to a WebOS device happily. The excellent GUI can't make up for the slug-like code, no matter how much wishful thinking we want to pour into it.

    The second I can get a stable install of ICS on the TouchPad, I'll never boot into WebOS again.

    I recommend that everyone put all energies into a platform with a future. WebOS was built on a hope that hardware could make up for the code's deficiencies. That will likely be possible in a few years. But for now, there's simply no valid reason to clunk along with a crippled, underpowered, undersupported and dead-end OS.
  2. #2  
    Did you just compare a pre minus, a 2009 device, to an iphone4s, a device from 2011???

    FAIL

    enjoy your ios
    rmausser and xandros9 like this.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by lakerguy View Post
    it feels subjectively like it runs approximately a quarter of the speed of the iPhone4S
    that would be because the hardware of the Pre Minus is one quarter the speed of the iphone4S.

    Rnp likes this.
  4. #4  
    OP seems to assume that nobody using a webos device ever had a chance to use an IOS device.
    That's not the case.

    Friends of mine have IPhones and I not only had a look at them to try them out - I help configuring stuff like EMail.

    I even made a parallel test for browser speed. Pre3 and IPhone 4 lying next to each other - both going through 3G - both loading the same website.
    Both finished loading at the same time. IPhone did one thing better - it showed parts of the site earlier during loading - while webos showed nothing until almost all of the site loaded.

    I also had occasion to develop on an IPad (very small frontend app for a company I work for).
    I fail to see the big difference in performance compared to a TP. Apple used a couple of tricks to make apps appear to load faster than they actually do. Besides the above mentioned incremental loading (well established features on desktop browsers for years - webos should do this too BTW), IOS Apps use a bitmap of the startscreen to show during loading. That helps make it *look* like it started right away - while actually the app is still loading.

    From my experience IPhone is not even close to being 4x faster than even a regular Pre-. And the differences are negligable between current hardware.

    No doubt webos is less optimized than IOS in some areas.

    Yes - IOS is a little bit smoother. But that doesn't make a Pre3 or TP slug-like. That's just hyperbole.

    But the only area where I grant IOS a clear advantage is app availability.
    To me the selection is satisfactory but I totally understand anybody missing the several 100k selection of apps.

    To me IOS is just too limiting and small-minded. YMMV.

    You prefer IOS devices - fine. No prob. You have your reasons and they are valid for you.

    But please explain to me how my Pre3 is crippled?
    And how is it possible to beat a 100% success rate in using YouTube on a TP? I have yet to have the first problem with any YouTube Video. I click 'em - they play.

    And we must go to a very different selection of web sites. You claim a 2/3 fail rate. I don't remember a single one (perhaps there were a couple - but then they were forgettable). And while Flash is far from perfect - IOS has a 100% fail rate in this area (I'm happy to see the flash tech die though - never liked it - I'm all for HTML5 killing it fast. But while flash is still around I'm happy to have a fair chance of using such sites).

    Meanwhile it took Apple years to finally (in version 5) improve their formerly awful modal notifications.
    Multitasking is still faked and limited on IOS and still bad.
    Apple is still an arrogant and bossy my-way-or-the-highway company that manages to annoy me more than the headless stumbling of HP in 2011 (or the cash-strapped desperation of Palm in 2009-10).
    And in 2012 Apple finally introduces the revolutionary idea of using OTA updates.
    That's just the beginning of my personal list. Believe me - there are reasons why some people prefer an under-supported Pre3 with uncertain future over an IPhone 4S with IOS 5.

    I guess being on Sprint you never had occasion to try out a Pre3?
    But then you suffer from the very blindness that you accused others of. As MDsmartphone said - It's silly to compare a mid 2009 Pre to a late 2011 Iphone 4S.
    I had one of the good Pre-. No cracking, no bad oreo - no probs with OC, etc... I was OK with my Pre- (battery life was borderline - but mostly got through the day).
    Even so the Pre3 is an *awesome* improvement. Give me an IPhone 4S for free - plus money back for what I paid on ebay for my Pre3 - plus a couple hundred bucks extra - I wouldn't switch. Actually I paid extra and bought a backup Pre3 just to make sure I don't have to switch to IOS or Android within the next 2-3 years.
    I could have gotten any device I want. I did look at the alternatives. Pre3 was the best for what I like. By far.

    Again - YMMV and you are entitled to your own set of preferences. I just don't understand why you see the need to spread propaganda like "slug-like" or crazy 2/3 site fail rates. A simple "Switched to IPhone and IPad, ditching my webos devices - no regrets because of apps and overall smoothness - now feel I shoulda done this earlier" would have done the job and been in better sync with the facts.
    Last edited by tholap; 01/14/2012 at 07:09 AM.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  5. #5  
    I dual-wield my Pre 2 and iPod touch 4.

    iOS is designed to "just work" and thats a good and bad thing. it automatically closes apps to keep it running smoothly, which is nice, but im still afraid to switch apps.
    I applaud Apple on disguising lag, etc and the extensive work on keeping iOS working. Perfect for most people, and i enjoy iOS's reliability, except when it quits safari automatically.
    However, the recent apps bar is terrible. double tap? hold and tap tiny target to quit? XP
    The app selection is nice too.
    Its just a bit limited by Apple for my daily use and my non-frustration. The auto-correct is too arrogant. (jailbreak solved that ) Just too boxed in
    Its a great media player though, although iTunes is worse that webOS XD
    (strangely, my Pre is more reliable for Youtube)

    i just like the fluidity of the webOS "workflow"

    webOS is laggy out-of-the-box, but the UI and way it works is a major plus for me.

    (my thoughts are a bit disorganized)
    m505 > Z|71 > T|C > T|T3 > LifeDrive > iPod touch 4 >
    Pre 2 > Treo Pro > Aria > Treo 650 > Lumia 920 > BB Z10 > BB Q10
    Lumia 830 > 635 > iPhone 5s > Galaxy Alpha > Lumia 640 >
    iPhone 5c > Nexus 5 > Nexus 5X > Blackberry Priv
    My Palm OS Archive
  6. #6  
    As some of you might know, i made the move from a two year old iPhone3GS to a Palm Pre 2 about 2-3 months ago. I would have picked up a TouchPad during the fire-sale had i had the opportunity to do so.

    I had the chance to use the PalmPre2 exclusively(without my iPhone or iPad) over the holidays.

    There are things i really like about WebOS....
    -The notifications
    -The cards metaphor (which i think is a paradigm for handhelds the way the desktop was for computers)
    -Multitasking
    -the "rounded corners" (Strangely enough it was the rounded-rects that attracted me to MacOS 20-25 years ago)
    -I like the size, shape and weight of the palm pre 2 over any other smartphone I have ever used. (gorilla glass screen is a definite plus)

    But the shortcomings are significant, unfortunately....
    -Laggy. I think it might be the graphics layer. When menus appear, they are choppy or swiping between cards, etc. But more importantly, while dialing a number in the phone app, it would lag by a few seconds thus making me make errors!!!
    -Touch recognition is a hit-or-miss, which is something really strange.
    -Touch sensitivity of the screen is too low. I tried using one of those paint-type programs and as shocked are how bad it is compared to the iPhone.
    -App Catalog. Its no surprise that it's anemic. But my problem with it is Palm/HP's incompetence which has severely diminished my confidence and trust in the teams. I wanted to purchase some apps on the Australian App store, and tried entering my CC info, but unfortunately there isn't a provision to enter my state in the billing address. You'd think this would be a very high priority bug considering it directly effects revenue and developer support, yet they have not yet fixed it.
    -The Palm Pre 2 slider...in fact any mechanical part will wear out and even my slider has that wiggle thing, which will only get worse.
    -Physical keyboard. It's quaint and a nice novelty, but they could have made a smaller thinner product by going for a virtual keyboard.

    Among other smaller issues....

    Bottom line, i'm back on my iPhone3GS as my primary phone. I'm glad I have a Palm souvenir and the last officially Palm branded device. And while there are features of WebOS that i like a lot, it seems like the teams could just not iterate quickly enough to resolve and optimize the products. Obviously changing owners, job uncertainty, etc...all had a part to play.

    Thanks for all your help over the past couple of months.

    Cheers
  7. #7  
    Just a small observation that I would like to share.

    I have an iPod Touch 4th generation that I had been using for several months when I got a TP in the original firesale. I set the TP up for my wife as a digital photo frame, played a bit with the patches and OS and then left it to her and forgot about it.

    I use the iPod daily. Recently, I wanted to install some new program on the TP for my wife so I picked up the TP and figured I could muddle through the system and maybe figure out how to do everything again and install the program. I turned it on and went touch, swipe, tap tap, swipe. It was shockingly intuitive and natural for me even after months away from it. I did not have to figure anything out and it just seemed to flow much better than the iPod OS.

    Now I have my own TP also. And am starting with Enyo programming. Sure, there are annoyances and quirks with the system, but they got SOMETHING right somehow.

    Your results may vary. Everyone's brain and training are different. Even though I use iOS daily, somehow webOS makes intuitive sense to MY brain.
    Rnp likes this.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by tholap View Post
    OP seems to assume that nobody using a webos device ever had a chance to use an IOS device.
    That's not the case.

    Friends of mine have IPhones and I not only had a look at them to try them out - I help configuring stuff like EMail.

    I even made a parallel test for browser speed. Pre3 and IPhone 4 lying next to each other - both going through 3G - both loading the same website.
    Both finished loading at the same time. IPhone did one thing better - it showed parts of the site earlier during loading - while webos showed nothing until almost all of the site loaded.

    I also had occasion to develop on an IPad (very small frontend app for a company I work for).
    I fail to see the big difference in performance compared to a TP. Apple used a couple of tricks to make apps appear to load faster than they actually do. Besides the above mentioned incremental loading (well established features on desktop browsers for years - webos should do this too BTW), IOS Apps use a bitmap of the startscreen to show during loading. That helps make it *look* like it started right away - while actually the app is still loading.

    From my experience IPhone is not even close to being 4x faster than even a regular Pre-. And the differences are negligable between current hardware.

    No doubt webos is less optimized than IOS in some areas.

    Yes - IOS is a little bit smoother. But that doesn't make a Pre3 or TP slug-like. That's just hyperbole.

    But the only area where I grant IOS a clear advantage is app availability.
    To me the selection is satisfactory but I totally understand anybody missing the several 100k selection of apps.

    To me IOS is just too limiting and small-minded. YMMV.

    You prefer IOS devices - fine. No prob. You have your reasons and they are valid for you.

    But please explain to me how my Pre3 is crippled?
    And how is it possible to beat a 100% success rate in using YouTube on a TP? I have yet to have the first problem with any YouTube Video. I click 'em - they play.

    And we must go to a very different selection of web sites. You claim a 2/3 fail rate. I don't remember a single one (perhaps there were a couple - but then they were forgettable). And while Flash is far from perfect - IOS has a 100% fail rate in this area (I'm happy to see the flash tech die though - never liked it - I'm all for HTML5 killing it fast. But while flash is still around I'm happy to have a fair chance of using such sites).

    Meanwhile it took Apple years to finally (in version 5) improve their formerly awful modal notifications.
    Multitasking is still faked and limited on IOS and still bad.
    Apple is still an arrogant and bossy my-way-or-the-highway company that manages to annoy me more than the headless stumbling of HP in 2011 (or the cash-strapped desperation of Palm in 2009-10).
    And in 2012 Apple finally introduces the revolutionary idea of using OTA updates.
    That's just the beginning of my personal list. Believe me - there are reasons why some people prefer an under-supported Pre3 with uncertain future over an IPhone 4S with IOS 5.

    I guess being on Sprint you never had occasion to try out a Pre3?
    But then you suffer from the very blindness that you accused others of. As MDsmartphone said - It's silly to compare a mid 2009 Pre to a late 2011 Iphone 4S.
    I had one of the good Pre-. No cracking, no bad oreo - no probs with OC, etc... I was OK with my Pre- (battery life was borderline - but mostly got through the day).
    Even so the Pre3 is an *awesome* improvement. Give me an IPhone 4S for free - plus money back for what I paid on ebay for my Pre3 - plus a couple hundred bucks extra - I wouldn't switch. Actually I paid extra and bought a backup Pre3 just to make sure I don't have to switch to IOS or Android within the next 2-3 years.
    I could have gotten any device I want. I did look at the alternatives. Pre3 was the best for what I like. By far.

    Again - YMMV and you are entitled to your own set of preferences. I just don't understand why you see the need to spread propaganda like "slug-like" or crazy 2/3 site fail rates. A simple "Switched to IPhone and IPad, ditching my webos devices - no regrets because of apps and overall smoothness - now feel I shoulda done this earlier" would have done the job and been in better sync with the facts.
    Why bring in Pre3 into the mix as if OP was comparing Pre3 to IP4S? He was comparing IP4S to Pre-. It's not a fair comparison and that's where the OP fails but lots of his points are also true. Pre is sluggish and webOS code is not optimized. And iphones are buttery smooth.
  9. #9  
    Oh, putz... So, I'm going now to Macmagazine forums to compare the IPhone 2G (Classic) with PrPrPr, $and$ $go$ $to$ $Androforums$ $compare$ $the$ $HTC$ $Magic$ $with$ $Pr$ $and$ $let$'$s$ $gonna$ $see$ $what$ $his$ $members$ $gonna$ $say$...

    Leave me know what all you think!


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
  10. Xeron's Avatar
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    #10  
    I have to say that the Veer feels waaaaaaay faster and more smooth than the Pre-, so comparing a 4S to an original Pre is hardly fair on webOS.
    My apps:
    Giddy 3 | Gridword
  11. #11  
    Since we are comparing apples to cornflakes, my old Nokia from 1998 was a better phone than my iPhone 3GS (emphasis on phone).
  12. #12  
    I use iPhone 3GS and webOS on HP TouchPad. For a while I really struggled with the fact that a double-tap of space didn't insert a full stop (fixed in latest webOS version).

    I still struggle with the fact that swiping up to exit an app does nothing on the iPhone.

    There are pros and cons of both. I can definitely see why Joe Public chooses iOS though - it just works. It's largely free of the technical annoyances that plague us in our day jobs. You have to give it to Apple for making the iOS experience easy. Even some of the most techie guys I know choose iPhone & iPad. They have enough IT hassles in their life already so a phone/tablet that works reliably & well suits them perfectly.

    The TouchPad does everything I need it to but it doesn't just work like iOS. Copy and pasting is tempramental as is auto-correction. Plus webOS does suffer from noticeable lag on occasions.

    I really love both my devices and given the price I'm still glad I chose the TouchPad over an iPad. But I'm not blinkered enough to suggest that the TouchPad experience is as slick (even if I prefer the webOS implementation of multi-tasking).
  13. jmleese's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by laoh View Post
    Why bring in Pre3 into the mix as if OP was comparing Pre3 to IP4S? He was comparing IP4S to Pre-. It's not a fair comparison and that's where the OP fails but lots of his points are also true. Pre is sluggish and webOS code is not optimized. And iphones are buttery smooth.

    Different discussion points but really a more valid comparison since the tech is comparing current to current vs. one of them being 3 years old. I'd be interested in the comparison of the pre - to ios from 2009 which would be on the 3GS ?

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